Alexa instructs child on how to fatally injure themselves

[mr moose]

Just now, HQuan said:

If you know nothing then please stop talking to me.

 

GFCI detect ground fault even there's no ground pin. 

 

Please explain how it detects current flow to ground if their is no path to ground?

[HQuan]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

 

Please explain how it detects current flow to ground if their is no path to ground?

Ok fine, I will explain it, wait a second, write this may take time.

[HQuan]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

 

Please explain how it detects current flow to ground if their is no path to ground?

GFCI detect ground fault based on the most basic thing about electronics. 

 

Let take example the outlet, have active and neutral. Electricity goes out active have to come back the neutral. We all know this. And if 15A go out active, 15A have to go back neutral. No matter resistance or whatever. If 15A go out active and only 14.9A go back neutral, electricity have flow to the unwanted path to somewhere. And the only path is ground and humans body. And GFCI will based on it to trip.

(I call Active because I see you like to call active. It's hot)

 

Watch TC's video for more: (no, he also explain how it work 3x better than me)

 

 

[HQuan]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

but the active and neutral are (as described in the OP) then a GFCI will do nothing.   At best a coin will melt and drop to the earth causing the GFCI to pop, however that would be after enough current and or heat has passed from the coin to the child. 

 

MCB's are not safety devices and AFCI's do not detect ground leakage (as far as I am aware), they should trip if you short out the pins as that would be a strong arc, however they also trip with nearby lightning, some Radio interference in the Mhz range and laser printers.  I believe they are only really in houses that were built in the last decade or so in the US,  In places like Aus. they are very uncommon.

MCB is not safety device, AFCI will trip if have large arc or high freq around like radio.

I want to die right now.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, HQuan said:

GFCI detect ground fault based on the most basic thing about electronics. 

 

Let take example the outlet, have active and neutral. Electricity goes out active have to come back the neutral. We all know this. And if 15A go out active, 15A have to go back neutral. No matter resistance or whatever. If 15A go out active and only 14.9A go back neutral, electricity have flow to the unwanted path to somewhere. And the only path is ground and humans body. And GFCI will based on it to trip.

(I call Active because I see you like to call active. It's hot)

 

Watch TC's video for more: (no, he also explain how it work 3x better than me)

 

 

That still doesn't explain where the current goes if their is no path to ground.    When there is no path to ground and all the current goes back into the neutral the GFCI will do nothing.     If you grab the hot and the neutral and don't have a path to ground (no ground pin and you're not standing on an old lead bath in salt water) then the GFCI will happily allow the full current (limited only by the CB/fuse) to pass through you and wreck your afternoon.

 

Also I call it the active because that is the official standard I have to operate under in Australia.    I'm not sure the standards are in the US, but if I call it the hot line or don't double insulate it with the right connector (even though a double screw would work just as well) my arse is grass.   

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, HQuan said:

MCB is not safety device, AFCI will trip if have large arc or high freq around like radio.

I want to die right now.

I imagine both an AFCI and MCB would trip from dropping a penny onto the hot and neutral. But not quick enough to save a life if it was human contact between the two.

 

I really don't know much about the AFCI's because they aren't common here and I was trained well before they were even scratchings on a chalk board.

[HQuan]

Just now, mr moose said:

I imagine both an AFCI and MCB would trip from dropping a penny onto the hot and neutral. But not quick enough to save a life if it was human contact between the two.

 

I really don't know much about the AFCI's because they aren't common here and I was trained well before they were even scratchings on a chalk board.

Yep I too, AFCI are listed ultra rare in Vietnam my country, I learn a bit when go on a vacation at Canada.

Human touching both hot and neutral have chance of not die if human are grounded, some current go to ground though human can trip the breaker. This is the reason so many people argue between wear shoe or not wear shoe when do electronics thing.

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

That still doesn't explain where the current goes if their is no path to ground.    When there is no path to ground and all the current goes back into the neutral the GFCI will do nothing.     If you grab the hot and the neutral and don't have a path to ground (no ground pin and you're not standing on an old lead bath in salt water) then the GFCI will happily allow the full current (limited only by the CB/fuse) to pass through you and wreck your afternoon.

 

Also I call it the active because that is the official standard I have to operate under in Australia.    I'm not sure the standards are in the US, but if I call it the hot line or don't double insulate it with the right connector (even though a double screw would work just as well) my arse is grass.   

The path to ground is human. RCB (same function with GFCI) are law here in Vietnam also. Yep youre true that when there's no path to ground, the GFCI will not trip and kill the human. But never forget that human have capacity to ground even insulated how much.

 

[HQuan]

@mr moose, I'm not hating you, don't misunderstand me. I want to give knowledge to more people.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, HQuan said:

@mr moose, I'm not hating you, don't misunderstand me. I want to give knowledge to more people.

It's cool, we're good. Been at it for 30 odd years now,  got my first set of certificates in 93.   Admittedly I only worked as a sparky on and off for a few years then I moved onto other careers but kept the electrical engineering as an active hobby.

 

 

RCD's here in Oz typically trip with a 30mA discrepancy,  In order to calculate the maximum resistance required for that to find a path to ground (assuming fully clothed and standing on tiles/carpet) would take more effort tonight than I wish to put in.  Especially given skin resistance can change depending on weather, sweat, hydration etc.    

[TPA50]

The website Alexa pulled this "challenge" from actually responded to the incident with a clarification on what had happened.

 

https://ourcommunitynow.com/news-tech/amazon-alexas-ai-mistakenly-takes-outlet-challenge-out-of-contextfrom-our-websitein-viral-tweet

[williamcll]

On 12/29/2021 at 2:05 AM, Sauron said:

bad plug:

  Reveal hidden contents

good plug:

  Reveal hidden contents

Plug design aside, maybe Alexa should have a list of approved sources rather than just google the query...

IMAGINE NOT HAVING GROUNDING

I give you the superior plug

[thekingofmonks]

Vaguely similar to Google's search results...

[pythonmegapixel]

28 minutes ago, williamcll said:

IMAGINE NOT HAVING GROUNDING

I give you the superior plug

Sorry to break this to you but a lot of British plugs aren't grounded either.

 

(And I say that as a Brit who feels our plugs are one of the few things the UK can be proud of as a nation)

[Tristerin]

The AI is tired of this kids shit.

[Sauron]

40 minutes ago, williamcll said:

IMAGINE NOT HAVING GROUNDING

I give you the superior plug

Imagine taking up the entire outlet with a single plug, smh

 

[WolframaticAlpha]

On 12/28/2021 at 10:56 PM, SlidewaysZ said:

If it's pulling stuff from the internet it's not going to end well. I mean c'mon how many examples do we need where teaching AI from the internet is a bad idea. 

 

https://techcrunch.com/2016/03/24/microsoft-silences-its-new-a-i-bot-tay-after-twitter-users-teach-it-racism/

I was genuinely surprised when I read this. I thought they might be pulling out challenges from 4chan or something. 

 

The lengths people go for 'data', while forgetting most of it is absolutely crap.

[Paul Thexton]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Imagine taking up the entire outlet with a single plug, smh

 

There are logical reasons why the uk plug was designed as it is.

 

1. copper was expensive/in short supply post world war 2, our houses are built with ring mains as a result of that (and have been ever since) and to facilitate that the plug needs physical space for a fuse
2. the designers didn’t want people to be able to plug things in the wrong way up.
3. The ground pin is longer as it’s used as an actuator to lift the safety tabs covering the live and neutral terminals in the socket. 
4. if you look at a correctly wired uk plug, the brown live wire goes pretty much directly to the terminal, while the blue wire takes what you might think is an unnecessarily long route (usually called a loop, no idea why), this is deliberate, if someone trips or tugs at the wire with enough force to pull the wires from the terminals, then the live wire will be the first to disconnect, meaning the circuit breaks safely.

I expect there are improvements that could have been made to the design, especially with more modern manufacturing tolerances (accidentally treading on an upturned plug hurts more than stepping on Lego), but the physical size is really not any kind of disadvantage IMO.

[Sauron]

43 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

the designers didn’t want people to be able to plug things in the wrong way up.

There is no wrong way to plug in the one I posted. It's alternate current, either side up is fine.

44 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

The ground pin is longer as it’s used as an actuator to lift the safety tabs covering the live and neutral terminals in the socket. 

Cool but unnecessary.

48 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

if you look at a correctly wired uk plug, the brown live wire goes pretty much directly to the terminal, while the blue wire takes what you might think is an unnecessarily long route (usually called a loop, no idea why), this is deliberate, if someone trips or tugs at the wire with enough force to pull the wires from the terminals, then the live wire will be the first to disconnect, meaning the circuit breaks safely.

Seems like a consequence of the bulky design, smaller plugs are jerked right out if you trip on the wire.

49 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

the physical size is really not any kind of disadvantage IMO.

Yeah it is, it makes power strips bulky and wire management clumsy for no reason.

[Paul Thexton]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Cool but unnecessary.

Given the subject matter at hand (kids being kids), it’s really not. There’s no need for outlet blanking plates, they’re built in to the socket already. 
 

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

There is no wrong way to plug in the one I posted. It's alternate current, either side up is fine.

AC here too.  As I said, designers didn’t want it to go wrong way round, I should have suffixed that with “I don’t know why”. I’m presuming it works in conjunction with the way the fuse/outlet switch of the uk wiring regulations work, maybe somebody else can elaborate further. 
 

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Seems like a consequence of the bulky design, smaller plugs are jerked right out if you trip on the wire.

Which might seem desirable until the moment you trip over the equipment or otherwise accidentally lightly tug at a wire for equipment helping someone who is receiving palliative / end of life care at home. There’s probably other reasons why easily yanking a cable out wouldn’t be a good idea, can’t be bothered to think of any though.

 

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Yeah it is, it makes power strips bulky and wire management clumsy for no reason.

That one’s entirely subjective, I don’t find it difficult or cumbersome to do cable management
 

Anyway, I think we can all agree that North American plugs & outlets aren’t designed as well as they should be. 

[Jtalk4456]

I'm not half as mad at alexa finding things that exist on the internet (doing what it's intended to do) as I am at society for creating challenges intended to kill people. It's all bad, but the real issue here is that getting electrocuted is even a challenge. There was a story last week where a 10 year old girl died from a challenge to see if you can hold your breath until you faint. As a parent, crap like that makes my blood boil over. It's not often I'm so disgusted at humanity and hopeless for it's future, but everytime I hear about one of these challenges, I feel a strong urge to forcibly remove the stupidity out of humanity however possible...

[LAwLz]

7 hours ago, williamcll said:

IMAGINE NOT HAVING GROUNDING

I give you the superior plug

1) The UK plug isn't really superior. You could argue that it has some benefits over Schuko but it also has some drawbacks, such as not being reversible.

2) There can be (and usually is) ground on the schuko plugs.

 

I think any sane person will agree that the US plug is objectively and significantly worse than both the UK and EU plug though. It's just straight up garbage.

[pythonmegapixel]

9 hours ago, LAwLz said:

2) There can be (and usually is) ground on the schuko plugs.

And, once again, there is sometimes no ground on UK plugs. The pin still has to be there, but it's often just made of plastic and thus not conductive - all it does is operate the protective shutters covering the contacts.

[mr moose]

15 minutes ago, pythonmegapixel said:

And, once again, there is sometimes no ground on UK plugs. The pin still has to be there, but it's often just made of plastic and thus not conductive - all it does is operate the protective shutters covering the contacts.

And it helps prevent something falling onto the active and neutral pins (like a coin) in the unlikely event they are uncovered and live.   That is why the UK plug is upside down (compared to aus. plugs).  It looks funny to me but clearly very practical and a superior design. 

[HQuan]

31 minutes ago, mr moose said:

And it helps prevent something falling onto the active and neutral pins (like a coin) in the unlikely event they are uncovered and live.   That is why the UK plug is upside down (compared to aus. plugs).  It looks funny to me but clearly very practical and a superior design. 

UK plug are consider the best household plug in the world. But with circuit breaker, plug design is nothing!

[IkeaGnome]

On 12/28/2021 at 10:30 AM, poochyena said:

Guess we'll wait and see if it gets removed then.

Thats because they are unaware of it until that happens. Were you aware of this before today? I wasn't.

Still there.