Best amp for sundara’s under $150-$200

[Tempst]

So I’m getting a pair of sundara headphones and I’ve heard that they sound better with an amp but I have no knowledge about audio amplifiers and was wondering what a really good one is.

 

thank you

[jaslion]

Try first without an amp and if you like it then well don't buy one. If you don't a shiit magni is a great value amplifier.

 

All a amplifier really does is well amplify the sound. So if your headphones require more power to run at higher volumes it is applicable. Otherwise an amp does basically nothing.

[Somerandomtechyboi]

4 minutes ago, jaslion said:

shiit magni

 

And i thought apple i products had a stupid name

 

Now this is another level of shiit

 

 

9 minutes ago, jaslion said:

Try first without an amp and if you like it then well don't buy one

Stupid name aside yea this is what id reccomend

 

amplifiers as their name implies, amplify sound. They dont increase sound quality, thats the job of a dac, although a crappy one sure can decrease sound quality

[tikker]

Seconding the no-amp-at-first advice. I run my Sundara's from my AVR usually, but even on my phone they didn't disappoint.

[Tan3l6]

20 minutes ago, Somerandomtechyboi said:

Now this is another level of shiit

No, Schiit!

https://www.schiit.com/products/fulla-2

What about Fulla Schiit?

[Tempst]

24 minutes ago, Somerandomtechyboi said:

amplifiers as their name implies, amplify sound. They dont increase sound quality, thats the job of a dac, although a crappy one sure can decrease sound quality

If a Dac is what effects the headphones sound quality, what’s a good dac to get, I’m only asking so that if i don’t like how the headphones sound by themselves I can have a dac ready to buy.

[jaslion]

17 minutes ago, Tech-_-Noob said:

If a Dac is what effects the headphones sound quality, what’s a good dac to get, I’m only asking so that if i don’t like how the headphones sound by themselves I can have a dac ready to buy.

If you don't like how the headphones sound on a couple devices a dac is unlikely to fix that too. They aren't magic. They just add more dimension to sound so to say but won't suddenly make bad headphones sound good.

[Entropy.]

4 hours ago, jaslion said:

Try first without an amp and if you like it then well don't buy one. If you don't a shiit magni is a great value amplifier.

 

All a amplifier really does is well amplify the sound. So if your headphones require more power to run at higher volumes it is applicable. Otherwise an amp does basically nothing.

Yes... but no. While all they technically do is amplify the sound, they can make darastic impacts to how a headphone sounds, not only from it's inherent coloration, dynamics, ect. but headphones that aren't powered properly can have some unintended artifacts.

 

3 hours ago, jaslion said:

If you don't like how the headphones sound on a couple devices a dac is unlikely to fix that too. They aren't magic. They just add more dimension to sound so to say but won't suddenly make bad headphones sound good.

I mean maybe something more neutral? Heavily colored dacs, such as say, the schiit bifrost can pretty greatly affect the sound of headphones. But yeah, generally they fix the source more than anything else. 

[jaslion]

7 minutes ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

Yes... but no. While all they technically do is amplify the sound, they can make darastic impacts to how a headphone sounds, not only from it's inherent coloration, dynamics, ect. but headphones that aren't powered properly can have some unintended artifacts.

Fair enough there. But the Sundara's are just 30 ohm headphones so I doubt anything will have problems driving it.

 

8 minutes ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

I mean maybe something more neutral? Heavily colored dacs, such as say, the schiit bifrost can pretty greatly affect the sound of headphones. But yeah, generally they fix the source more than anything else. 

Indeed not magic at best some cleanup but that is about it. Of course there are dacs that have some tuning available to adjust the sound but at that point you are having a mini board :p. Might as well just get a pair of headphoes that are good out of the box then.

[CTR640]

4 hours ago, Somerandomtechyboi said:

 

And i thought apple i products had a stupid name

 

Now this is another level of shiit

 

 

Stupid name aside yea this is what id reccomend

 

amplifiers as their name implies, amplify sound. They dont increase sound quality, thats the job of a dac, although a crappy one sure can decrease sound quality

"I need moar power for my headphone"

"Get schiit then"

"Which schiit?"

"Fulla schiit"

 

[Entropy.]

5 minutes ago, jaslion said:

Fair enough there. But the Sundara's are just 30 ohm headphones so I doubt anything will have problems driving it.

 

Indeed not magic at best some cleanup but that is about it. Of course there are dacs that have some tuning available to adjust the sound but at that point you are having a mini board :p. Might as well just get a pair of headphoes that are good out of the box then.

Ohmage isn't the only decider of how hard a headphone is to drive, it can heavily depend on sensitivity of the headphone. Quick snippet from the pinned "Before you get an amp and dac recommendations" thread 

 

Ohmage does not say if your headphones are hard to drive or not.

 

You can have 600 Ohm headphones that are easier to drive than 32 Ohm headphones. It is the sensitivity and efficiency that matters the most.

A very quick example of this would be the K612 and the HE 560. The K612 has a ohm rating of 120 Ohm and a sensitivity rating of 101 SPL/V, while the HE 560 has a Ohm rating of 45 Ohm and a efficiency rating of 90 SPL/mW. Using a online calculator we get these results, which shows that the HE 560 will need more power than the K612, despite the K612 having a Ohm rating that is almost three times higher than the HE 560's.

I used this website to calculate the power needed http://www.digizoid.com/headphones-power.html

 

Essentially Ohmage will be used to determine the amout of resistance, 

[grimreaper_slm-thg]

 

11 hours ago, Tech-_-Noob said:

So I’m getting a pair of sundara headphones and I’ve heard that they sound better with an amp but I have no knowledge about audio amplifiers and was wondering what a really good one is.

 

thank you

https://www.amazon.com/FiiO-BTR5-2021-Receiver-Bluetooth-Headphone/dp/B09G9TNB2R/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2482C54DUM0CI&keywords=fiio+btr5&qid=1637273116&s=electronics&sprefix=fiio+%2Celectronics%2C207&sr=1-1

https://www.fiio.com/btr5

[CTR640]

Fiio K5 Pro fits within your budget.

[rice guru]

Schiit magni 3+ and if you need a dac I guess the modi3+as well. 

[Spuriae]

The Schiit Magni would be my default recommendation for planars at $100. The JDS Atom is a good alternative with a bit cleaner output and a bit less power at about the same price.

 

6 hours ago, CTR640 said:

Fiio K5 Pro fits within your budget.

If OP goes this route, be warned that the K5's selling point is that it's the highest power output DAC/Amp combo (that I know of) at the $100 price point. The output quality isn't great, especially on the DAC; unless something is wrong with the user's motherboard, plugging the motherboard into the Amplifier inputs typically gives better performance than using the built-in DAC, to some extent undermining the point of the product in the first place.

 

For a TPA6120-based amplifier, the Topping L30, Schiit Magnius, and Sabaj A10h all use the same part in a nested feedback configuration that gives much better performance. Sure, they're not all in one DAC/Amp combos, but motherboard+Amp is better in practice most of the time compared to the K5's internal DAC.

20 hours ago, grimreaper_slm-thg said:

 

https://www.amazon.com/FiiO-BTR5-2021-Receiver-Bluetooth-Headphone/dp/B09G9TNB2R/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2482C54DUM0CI&keywords=fiio+btr5&qid=1637273116&s=electronics&sprefix=fiio+%2Celectronics%2C207&sr=1-1

https://www.fiio.com/btr5

OP asked for an amplifier for inefficient low impedance headphones. The BTR5 is a mobile DAC.

[CTR640]

4 minutes ago, Nimrodor said:

The Schiit Magni would be my default recommendation for planars at $100. The JDS Atom is a good alternative with a bit cleaner output and a bit less power at about the same price.

 

If OP goes this route, be warned that the K5's selling point is that it's the highest power output DAC/Amp combo (that I know of) at the $100 price point. The output quality isn't great, especially on the DAC; unless something is wrong with the user's motherboard, plugging the motherboard into the Amplifier inputs typically gives better performance than using the built-in DAC, to some extent undermining the point of the product in the first place.

 

For a TPA6120-based amplifier, the Topping L30, Schiit Magnius, and Sabaj A10h all use the same part in a nested feedback configuration that gives much better performance. Sure, they're not all in one DAC/Amp combos, but motherboard+Amp is better in practice most of the time compared to the K5's internal DAC.

OP asked for an amplifier for inefficient low impedance headphones. The BTR5 is a mobile DAC.

Yeah, I've been looking for something else but I'm not sure which. Although tube amps caught my interest but have literally zero knowledge on that. I wanted the iFi ZEN DAC V1 but I can not comprehend the design choice to NOT have a power switch. It's on for 24/7. Why not a switch off/on via volume knob. And it needs to be a single unit too. So far I have no issue with the K5 Pro. And I plan on making my desk as cleas as possible and K5 Pro is actually nicely done.

[grimreaper_slm-thg]

2 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

OP asked for an amplifier for inefficient low impedance headphones. The BTR5 is a mobile DAC.

just watch

[Spuriae]

6 minutes ago, grimreaper_slm-thg said:

just watch

There's a lot of factually wrong material in that video. Not opinions or the normal objective vs. subjective debate; measurably, factually wrong.

 

Just the first 10 minutes, because I don't enjoy watching this sort of video. If you need a source for anything below, feel free to ask.

• 0:00 – This stuff at the beginning is almost all opinion, but I generally agree.
• 1:55 – It's true that you can absolutely get great sound using the phone you have, and cheaply.
  • The proper approach is to use high efficiency headphones with the headphone jack, or buy a dongle ($8 Apple for entry level, $30 Meizu for more power and excellent sound quality).
• 2:00 – For applications where power output is limited, pairing the headphones and the source is absolutely the correct approach.
  • For high output impedance sources, match the headphone and source impedance for maximum power output; for instance, out of a computer motherboard (75Ω output impedance), an 80Ω headphone will be slightly louder than an otherwise identical 32Ω or 300Ω headphone.
  • For devices with low voltage swing but high current output, pair with low impedance headphones.
  • For devices with high voltage swing but low current output (many combo devices), pair with high impedance headphones.
• 2:30 – It all begins to fall apart here. He fundamentally misunderstands impedance.
  • Sensitivity is by far the most important factor in determining how loud a headphone will get. Even if the impedance is mismatched to the source, loudness scales linearly with output power and exponentially with sensitivity.
  • Audiophiles are not raving about the M50X, aside from complaining about how overhyped they are.
    • In my mind, they have a number of flaws that prevent them from being great headphones, but do have unique qualities that make them particularly suited for some specific use cases:
      • The treble is flat but extremely grainy. This makes them unpleasant for music listening, but excellent as a second reference when mixing and mastering since it's immediately obvious if any section of the highs isn't neutral.
      • The impedance has minimal frequency dependence, and the sensitivity is high. This makes them work well with high output impedance sources, and in some cases even work out of devices that weren't intended to drive headphones directly. In certain studio environments, this sort of compatibility is excellent.
  • Apple earpods are 40Ω. HD280s are 64Ω. M50Xs are 38Ω.
    • The video implies that the perceived loudness ranking will be M50X>Earpods>HD280.
    • The actual perceived loudness ranking is Earpods≈HD280>M50X. The M50X is the least efficient of the headphones compared, and remains so even when matching voltage levels (which would favor low impedance headphones).
• 4:20 – Truth, most of the difference in sound is headphones rather than the source.
• 4:30 – Did he really just recommend ignoring open backs in an audio quality video?
• 4:40 – I disagree with many of these, but everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Different headphones sound different to different people; how a headphone sounds often depends on the shape of the person's ears, head, hair, glasses, etc.
  • 4:50 – That MDR7506 was a studio standard roughly neutral headphone, but not anymore with those aftermarket pads.
  • 5:00 – "Best value" open back is highly subjective, but it's really hard to argue against the KSC75 in that regard. (This is pure opinion)
  • 5:30 – Agreed, skip the SR325e. But skip the SR60e too. Both inject significant fake detail into the sound that gets played through them. (This is opinion; I'm sure people exist whose pinnae cancel the Grado resonances). Unless the buyer wants to feel like they're listening to detail without actually doing so, in which case Grado is excellent.
• 5:55 – Hasn't Dankpods said the opposite of this somewhere else? That bassy headphones are the best for movies?
• 6:00 – Didn't he just spend two minutes saying that higher impedance headphones are harder to drive?
• 6:15 – Truth, good headphones stay good. The HD580/600/650 family is almost 30 years old now, and still has yet to be surpassed in some ways.
• 6:20 – That explains why his mastering skews bright, I guess.
• 7:20 – Ironically that Apple dongle is a straight upgrade from the FiiO i1 in terms of output quality and power. The FiiO does come out ahead on build quality and microphone.
• 9:30 – This bit of dishonest marketing spiel needs to die. Higher impedance loads are always easier to drive in a world where signals are measured in voltage. Regardless, the Colorfly doesn't have enough voltage headroom to play line level signals, so its power output into 300Ω is equal to the Meizu dongle.

With respect to the BTR5:

• Its official ratings around the 120Ω mark
  • As discussed above, this spec is completely meaningless. The 16Ω minimum is more interesting since it actually can mean something (some amplifiers will enter thermal runaway with too low impedance of a load, while others with sufficient output current can no longer safely use TRS jacks without protection relays because they might weld the jack to the plug if plugged in during use), though it probably doesn't in this situation.
• It runs the HD650
  • Yes. So does my phone. The limitation is volume headroom, and it doesn't take much power to get the HD650 uncomfortably (or in OSHA terms, unsafely) loud.
• DACs improve the texture of kick drums
  • This probably has more to do with the amplifier's output impedance. High output impedance sources amplify dynamic headphones' fundamental mid/upper bass resonance.
• It has two DACs
  • Technically, so does every device with a stereo audio output. Less cynically, it's a marketing point and little more.
  • I suspect it's because FiiO wanted a differential output and the ES9218 only has single-ended outputs, and it was easier for them to use two DACs for the balanced output instead of adding an extra amplifier stage.
    • This is a completely legitimate design choice! It just doesn't have any effect on the single-ended output.
• Wireless hifi?
  • Probably not. It doesn't manage 16 bit resolution analog output even in wired mode. Granted, most people probably won't hear the difference or won't care either way.
  • There are already cheap wireless devices out there with microphones that can drive the HD650 and get even better analog output quality, such as my phone.
  • The draw of the BTR5 is really that it has good output power for such a conveniently sized device, from the differential output.
• Balanced output reduces noise
  • This is a very complicated subject, more due to a combination of semantics and misinformation than because the electrical principles are complicated.
  • Balanced simply means equal impedance on the signal and return path. The HD650's stock cable is technically a balanced cable, since each channel has its own ground conductor.
  • Differential means that the two wires are driven with the signal and its opposite. This is what people usually mean when they say balanced.
  • Balanced reduces noise because any induced spuriae in one conductor will be induced with the opposite phase in the other, and both will cancel at the load. This does not require differential signalling.
  • Differential outputs may in practice have reduced noise by a factor of 3dB and cancelled even-order distortion if the two outputs are identical and the noise is perfectly uncorrelated. In the BTR5, this is likely true. In many cheaper devices, it is not; the differential signal is generated by an additional inverting amplifier, which results in the differential quality being worse than the single-ended.
  • The most practical benefit of differential output is that it allows the designer to increase a device's output power without increasing the voltage rails. This is particularly helpful in USB-powered devices, where often either virtual ground is used to create ±2.5V rails or a switching inverter is used to generate a -5V rail.
    • It's a clever way to boost the datasheet specs without increasing price by shifting the cost of adding additional power supply elements to the consumer by having them buy different cables instead.
      • I am absolutely guilty of this approach personally.
• The BTR5 is a poor fit for OP's needs.
  • The Sundara is a low efficiency low impedance headphone. It needs current output. Sure, the BTR5 can sort of do that, but...
    • It's significantly worse than desktop amplifiers, which are cheaper than the BTR5.
    • The BTR5 is only sufficient through its balanced output, which would require additional cost, parts, and ecosystem lock-in.
  • OP is looking for sound quality.
    • The BTR5 is significantly worse than desktop amplifiers, which are cheaper.
  • The Sundara is not portable.
    • The BTR5's portability is unlikely to be useful.

[CTR640]

@Nimrodor

Quote

4:20 – Truth, most of the difference in sound is headphones rather than the source.

 

I think this is one of the reason why I have been sticking to my currect dac/amp, the K5 Pro. Been still looking for a new one but not much actively because all my headphones sounds completely different, which is my intention. And yep, my Amiron Home is the most efficient despites it's 250ohm. Even my 10+ years old Samsung YP-U3 can drive it with ease. And well writen informative reply!

 

And oh yes, sorry for a bit offtopic but maybe it's not offtopic because some of the BTR series has balanced features. What are your takes on the 2.5mm, 4.4mm balanced? Do they really differ from the usual 3.5mm and 6.35mm? Or are they bogus?

[Spuriae]

2 hours ago, CTR640 said:

I think this is one of the reason why I have been sticking to my currect dac/amp, the K5 Pro. Been still looking for a new one but not much actively because all my headphones sounds completely different, which is my intention.

Objectivist hot take: the differences between the K5 Pro and the most transparent amplifiers on the market won't be audible to most people under normal listening conditions.

 

It has low enough output impedance to not appreciably change most headphones' frequency response (except for some outliers like balanced armature IEMs), has enough output power to not clip at reasonable listening levels with most headphones, has low enough distortion to not be readily audible with standard music, has low enough noise to not be audible with standard music on standard headphones at standard levels in a standard listening environment (though change any two of those factors and that could change).

 

The reason I recommend against the K5 is because some of the most transparent amplifiers on the market are available around the $100 mark nowadays. If you already have a K5, are happy with its feature set, and aren't using it in a way that would require better performance, there's not much reason to switch.

 

3 hours ago, CTR640 said:

And oh yes, sorry for a bit offtopic but maybe it's not offtopic because some of the BTR series has balanced features. What are your takes on the 2.5mm, 4.4mm balanced? Do they really differ from the usual 3.5mm and 6.35mm? Or are they bogus?

 

The effects of Balanced vs Single-Ended varies from amplifier to amplifier. For headphone amplifiers most of the time the relevant difference is the amount of power available.

 

If the balanced outputs are differentially driven (which they usually are) then their output is (generally) 6dB louder than the single-ended connectors. If the amplifier had limited voltage headroom to begin with (mostly applicable to portable/USB devices), this may result in increased performance overall. If they're not differentially driven (Topping A30Pro, for instance), the balanced connectors are just there for convenience/compatibility.

 

If the amplifier is differential all the way through, the signal to noise ratio on the balanced output will be 3dB better overall (but noise will be 3dB higher in absolute terms so it's not a straight win). If it is not (i.e. the opposite polarity signal is generated after the input stage), often the noise on the balanced output will be a bit higher.

 

On certain amplifiers with differential signalling the even-order distortion cancellation is significant, and for these amplifiers the balanced outputs are significantly better. On certain amplifiers the balanced output can have common mode noise cancellation, but this really only applies to poorly designed amplifiers. For applications other than headphone outputs this common mode rejection is useful for doing things like mitigating ground loops.

 

The noise benefits of balanced cables themselves are basically meaningless for headphones. It's hard to imagine a realistic scenario where a reasonable headphone with a reasonable cable could pick up audible interference (single-ended or balanced, the cable is much shorter than any audible wavelength and attached at both ends to a 0-impedance node!) while driving a headphone. EMI can cause issues in audio, but those scenarios are not applicable to headphone signals after they have already left the amplifier. I'm not an expert in this field though, so it's possible there may be some other effect I don't know about.

 

As far as balanced 2.5mm vs 4.4mm vs XLR goes, they're just different connectors. No difference in audio quality for normal use. Definite differences in durability and cost. Some high power applications (such as on headphone amplifiers that approach speaker levels of power) may require XLR because TRRS connectors temporarily short-circuit every time they're plugged in.

 

For most amplifiers, extra power is the only appreciable advantage of the balanced output over the single-ended one. There can be a number of other pros and cons, but they will vary from amplifier to amplifier. On the BTR5, I don't have access to the device, measurements, or the circuit. Based on how I'm guessing they implemented the circuit, the balanced outputs should have 6dB more power, 3dB higher noise (but 3dB better SNR at max output), and significantly decreased distortion (maybe some even-order cancellation, but likely more to do with increasing headroom with the limited voltage rails) compared to the single-ended.

[grimreaper_slm-thg]

.

Edited November 21, 2021 by grimreaper_slm-thg
i made a fucky wucky

[Entropy.]

2 hours ago, grimreaper_slm-thg said:

whats wrong with dank

The BTR5 isn't a very good unit for OP. Dankpods in his review got a lot wrong. They watched the review because you asked, then provided how he's factually incorrect at times, and why the disagree with dankpods for your convienence, to help explain why it shouldn't be recommended for this scenario. 

[grimreaper_slm-thg]

.

Edited November 21, 2021 by grimreaper_slm-thg
i made a fucky wucky

[Entropy.]

8 minutes ago, grimreaper_slm-thg said:

true he is incorrect at times but not entirely.

but i said whats wrong with dank, not the video.

... He gets a good amount of facts wrong, isn't the most experienced out there, even he calls himself the "point of first contact" for audiophiles. You may like to watch him, and that's perfectly fine. But using him as your primary source for reviews and impressions is very often not a good idea imo. Even moreso if you have no idea if your opininon correlates to his, because you haven't been able to try the products that he has. even even moreso if you're somebody that uses him as basically your only source, or you haven't tried very many audio products in the first place.

[grimreaper_slm-thg]

5 minutes ago, Brok3n But who cares? said:

... He gets a good amount of facts wrong, isn't the most experienced out there, even he calls himself the "point of first contact" for audiophiles. You may like to watch him, and that's perfectly fine. But using him as your primary source for reviews and impressions is very often not a good idea imo. Even moreso if you have no idea if your opininon correlates to his, because you haven't been able to try the products that he has. even even moreso if you're somebody that uses him as basically your only source, or you haven't tried very many audio products in the first place.

i edited my repl