1

[Mark Kaine]

1 minute ago, wkdpaul said:

That's 100% speculation, like I just said, stores are receiving stock daily, plus, what should they do, close the PC building program because angry gamers can't get the GPU they want ?

It's not really "speculation"  it's what OP is claiming, so either this is true or not i can't know, but it should be in a "tldr" of what OP is claiming as it's their main point.

OP  would also know if these are mostly OEM or retail cards.

 

 

i mean it sounds very plausible either way...  im also not so sure about the legality of this. if they have backorders with deposit it's at least some kind of contract that they would break - although im not a lawyer.

 

 

 

 

[Runaway_Fox]

Could they just not be cards for prebuilds. Like they are shipped in brown boxes and not the fancy ones you see in stores? 

[Mark Kaine]

umm, i can't access the google drive, which is strange in itself, why not just post a few pics as "evidence" ?although i do understand the security through obscurity approach.

[dalekphalm]

13 hours ago, KingslayerNana said:

Yea I think OP should have explained it better. Canada Computers took full deposits for backorder. Instead of filling those backorders they are holding them for high margin systems. So CC is holding a ton of money from customers with zero intention of ever giving them the product.

First off, we don't know whether or not they're actually not fulfilling all backorders.

 

Likely in reality they're doing both, but prioritizing their PC Building business (because obvious reasons).

 

Also we know at least in some situations that CC has offered refunds to people with a backorder - thus, you can't claim they're just taking people's money with no intention of providing the product.

 

I also am very skeptical that the OP would have the kind of company insight to really know what's going on in terms of stock allocation and company directions. If they're a retail front line employee at the store level (not even a manager), they might see numbers in the inventory computer, but they won't actually know jack shit about what's going on with the upper management.

 

If they're a store manager, they might have some more insight, but sure as hell they're risking their career (their choice, just hope they're aware of the risks).

 

There's simply not enough information provided to prove that CC is committing outright fraud.

[LogicalDrm]

4 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

It's not really "speculation"  it's what OP is claiming, so either this is true or not i can't know, but it should be in a "tldr" of what OP is claiming as it's their main point.

OP  would also know if these are mostly OEM or retail cards.

The whole post by OP is speculation. They have not provided any proof.

 

4 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

i mean it sounds very plausible either way...  im also not so sure about the legality of this. if they have backorders with deposit it's at least some kind of contract that they would break - although im not a lawyer.

IF there's money withdrew, then this is whole another thing. But I didn't get that from OP. Its quite unclear what their position here is. Are they in backorder with deposit made, or are they just in queue or something similar without deposit made.

 

IF there has been deposit made, then there's contract and it falls down to consumer protections laws on how those will be processed. This nuance was discussed months ago with German retailer in question. Back then I checked our laws. Nothing in there mentions about that stores would be committing fraud of any kind by cancelling order and returning money. Which is the key point here. I'm sure they will return any deposit if requested. But that also means you lose position in queue.

[TheDuke77]

1 hour ago, LogicalDrm said:

The whole post by OP is speculation. They have not provided any proof.

 

IF there's money withdrew, then this is whole another thing. But I didn't get that from OP. Its quite unclear what their position here is. Are they in backorder with deposit made, or are they just in queue or something similar without deposit made.

 

IF there has been deposit made, then there's contract and it falls down to consumer protections laws on how those will be processed. This nuance was discussed months ago with German retailer in question. Back then I checked our laws. Nothing in there mentions about that stores would be committing fraud of any kind by cancelling order and returning money. Which is the key point here. I'm sure they will return any deposit if requested. But that also means you lose position in queue.

Here's the deal.

 

The company took preorders/backorders from people to have paid in FULL, taxes included since release date. The reddit thread is full of people who have had orders cancelled during the "preorder" stage, when the cards were cheaper at MSRP than they are now. They refunded some yes, but they do have stock... and also full of people still waiting for their cards. I don't see the logic of cancelling someones preorder because of no stock, but later tell that same person we'll build you a pc with that card.

 

CC has a line of prebuilts, called Armory. This line has set parts, you can't change them.  The custom building they do, is for someone who doesn't know how to build a PC, but wants to customize it parts wise. Which they charge a fee for. Quite understandable its a business. But this Custom build program WAS the same queue as on the shelf or backorders. Meaning if they had 10 GPU's in stock, 5 people buy a single gpu first and 7 later buy a prebuilt, then the GPU sold alone was first followed by the custom builds. And from what i understand, they charge normally about 150 ish to custom build a pc for you.

 

Now this new "program" of custom builds was implemented during the shortage. The new training is meant for the employees to lie to clients regarding stock on backorders, Calling and cancelling preorders so they can hoard the GPU's for their new program. This Training PDF was uploaded to his google drive, but it was removed due to privacy reasons. Luckily i downloaded it and read it all.  Its pretty sad a company would do this honestly. Basically forcing their employees to do shady business, or quit...  Or like this guy or gal is doing, putting the truth out there.

 

Other employees have also come forward on the reddit thread to confirm what the OP is saying.

 

One guy i know had a PC priced from CC yesterday. They wanted 850$ more than if he was to buy the parts and build himself. That's outrageous!

I challenge LTT to call and price a custom PC at CC

 

Now let's get to the legal matter in this. Some will say GPUs are not a necessity, rather a luxury. There is some truth to that, but I beg to differ... I do graphic design, CAD, 3D design...its my business and its what puts food on the table. I have a small growing family and NEED a good GPU to work efficiently. Moving an item in CorelDraw and have it spin and spin and spin (load) is no fun. To me its a necessity. Some might say "Get a Quadro". Yeah...lol...like prices of those make any sense. Besides, im not an enterprise, im sole owner and best bang for your $$$ is Geforce.

 

Scalping is illegal in Canada for the most part. Scalping during a pandemic and worldwide shortage of GPUS is also highly illegal.

They are also sitting on 100's of thousands of dollars of customers money on backorders. Again, with employees forced to tell them "we don't know when stock will be back, but we'll build you a custom pc with the same card you backordered, just insanely marked up".

 

Shady business....absolutely 1000%  

Illegal? Absolutely, if the claims can be proven. Given the screenshots and information provided. Good chance legal action will be taken.

 

To be clear, im posting what i know and read. Tried to break it down as best as I knew and also feel. As a Canadian myself, we tend to help each other, and even more in the worst of times.  This company is clearly doing wrong to its clients and does not feel canadian to me at all!

[LogicalDrm]

20 minutes ago, TheDuke77 said:

The company took preorders/backorders from people to have paid in FULL, taxes included since release date. The reddit thread is full of people who have had orders cancelled during the "preorder" stage, when the cards were cheaper at MSRP than they are now. They refunded some yes, but they do have stock... and also full of people still waiting for their cards. I don't see the logic of cancelling someones preorder because of no stock, but later tell that same person we'll build you a pc with that card.

Like I said, if there is deposit been made, then these people should be contacting local consumer protection agency about now. Not posting these rants without evidence on random forums. With intention of causing havoc.

 

20 minutes ago, TheDuke77 said:

Now let's get to the legal matter in this. Some will say GPUs are not a necessity, rather a luxury. There is some truth to that, but I beg to differ... I do graphic design, CAD, 3D design...its my business and its what puts food on the table. I have a small growing family and NEED a good GPU to work efficiently. Moving an item in CorelDraw and have it spin and spin and spin (load) is no fun. To me its a necessity. Some might say "Get a Quadro". Yeah...lol...like prices of those make any sense. Besides, im not an enterprise, im sole owner and best bang for your $$$ is Geforce.

If you are making money off something, then you have more money allocated of new hardware. Essentially, your position as business is WAY different than gamer, or even miners. Gamers are only losing money when they buy stuff. Its hobby, its entertainment. Those who mine at some portion are looking to break even, getting their investment paid back during the main lifetime of the GPU. A business is looking to make profit. Sure, the increased price will mean that margins are smaller. But considering a business would be using a GPU for 2-4 years before next upgrade (based on LTT video for editors PCs), the benefits are FAR bigger, even if the price is double of what it would normally be. Furthermore, someone getting "gaming" grade GPU instead of "professional" grade GPU for professional work would be yet another competitor for gamers.

 

Even furthermore, if I was charge of making tech upgrades and market would be know to be volatile (honestly, its known to be volatile), I would look for long-term solutions which will guarantee I get the hardware my company needs. Even if that means the margins get even smaller. If you bet, you lose more often than win. This is the time when you are losing. Big.

 

20 minutes ago, TheDuke77 said:

Scalping is illegal in Canada for the most part. Scalping during a pandemic and worldwide shortage of GPUS is also highly illegal.

Source? AFAIK the laws you are referring only affect on ticket sales for sporting and such events. Not hardware or other physical stuff. The second sentence is full BS.

 

20 minutes ago, TheDuke77 said:

They are also sitting on 100's of thousands of dollars of customers money on backorders.

And this would be on customers hand. They have all right to cancel order and get money back. So point here? None.

[TheDuke77]

41 minutes ago, LogicalDrm said:

Like I said, if there is deposit been made, then these people should be contacting local consumer protection agency about now. Not posting these rants without evidence on random forums. With intention of causing havoc.

 

If you are making money off something, then you have more money allocated of new hardware. Essentially, your position as business is WAY different than gamer, or even miners. Gamers are only losing money when they buy stuff. Its hobby, its entertainment. Those who mine at some portion are looking to break even, getting their investment paid back during the main lifetime of the GPU. A business is looking to make profit. Sure, the increased price will mean that margins are smaller. But considering a business would be using a GPU for 2-4 years before next upgrade (based on LTT video for editors PCs), the benefits are FAR bigger, even if the price is double of what it would normally be. Furthermore, someone getting "gaming" grade GPU instead of "professional" grade GPU for professional work would be yet another competitor for gamers.

 

Even furthermore, if I was charge of making tech upgrades and market would be know to be volatile (honestly, its known to be volatile), I would look for long-term solutions which will guarantee I get the hardware my company needs. Even if that means the margins get even smaller. If you bet, you lose more often than win. This is the time when you are losing. Big.

 

Source? AFAIK the laws you are referring only affect on ticket sales for sporting and such events. Not hardware or other physical stuff. The second sentence is full BS.

 

And this would be on customers hand. They have all right to cancel order and get money back. So point here? None.

So laws against scalping tickets don't apply to GPUS? how are tickets different? Your research shows that tickets were the most common item to be scalped. The LAW applies to items being scalped in general... its much harder to prove an individual is scalping... But VLCanada in BC is selling GPUs for 3x the price, they are a company and that is illegal.

Might be hard to prove CC is willingly doing it with their custom build program. but this reddit post is a PSA, and confirmed alot of people who have been waiting for cards, whats really going on.

 

 

So because i use it for business, it should pay scalper price? Because i can afford it, but it'll only make my margins smaller?? what???? are you serious???

 

How you're a moderator of any kind baffles me...

[dalekphalm]

2 minutes ago, TheDuke77 said:

How you're a moderator of any kind baffles me...

 

Don't attack his character just because he has a difference of opinion on a subject. That's not cool. If you have a problem with him as a moderator, report the post to the admin team and let them handle it.

[Tieox]

Solution is quite simple.

[TheDuke77]

4 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

 

Don't attack his character just because he has a difference of opinion on a subject. That's not cool. If you have a problem with him as a moderator, report the post to the admin team and let them handle it.

moderators are not supposed to add to the fire. he's saying that people are crying about not having their GPUs. LTT will probably talk about this as they tweeted it. You gona say Linus is crying too? its an issue that needed to be brought to light and people are reacting to it. Its pretty sad the reddit thread as more compassion than this thread. Morals might be the better term...

[SansVarnic]

1 hour ago, TheDuke77 said:

moderators are not supposed to add to the fire. he's saying that people are crying about not having their GPUs. LTT will probably talk about this as they tweeted it. You gona say Linus is crying too? its an issue that needed to be brought to light and people are reacting to it. Its pretty sad the reddit thread as more compassion than this thread. Morals might be the better term...

Moderators in general do a job on the forum but we are member just the same and we post and visit just like everyone else. Attempting to hold us up to a higher expectation to in comparison to a posted opinion is somewhat unreal. It's like saying, Mr Policeman I don't like you because you wrote me a ticket for breaking a dumb law and you should let it slide. Well, that doesn't mean the police agrees with the law or not, it just means they enforced it. I hate this comparison and the resulting equivalent of an agrument. 

 

Now, don't get me wrong we should be expected to act more in-line and appropriate but I do fail to see where in the that comment they were condescending. A difference in opinion is not condescending, being direct is not necessarily rude.

 

I am finding it increasingly common that thick skinned individuals is becoming harder to find.  This is a forum for debate and discussion, not yes men and automatic agreeable positions. "to every one that is among you, not to have high thoughts above what he should think; but to think so as to be wise".

 

1 hour ago, TheDuke77 said:

Morals might be the better term...

That is reaching... by a very long stretch. Ethics is the term you're looking for and even there its scratching, or better yet the most fitting term would be objectivity or impartiality. 

 

Anyhow this is derailing the topic.... moving on.   If you wish to continue this, do it in a PM.

[ToboRobot]

First went to CC in Toronto about 20 years ago, and it was always a slightly sketchy business.

Canada is sorely lacking in a good computer component supplier.

That kid from NCIX should do something about it...

[Doug_Dangger]

Stop buying gpus a dime over msrp.

Problem solved.

[Ar558a]

21 hours ago, WereCatf said:

Why? What do you expect anyone here to do? It's not like anyone here can do jack shit about some Canadian business. Or do you just want this to be yet-another fucking echo chamber? If so, well, too fucking bad, because at least I'm not into echo chambers. Besides which, this stuff is happening everywhere, so this ain't news or noteworthy, either.

I just meant it seemed like people didn't think taking pre-orders and not fulfilling them when they could so they can  profiteer instead was actually unacceptable behaviour. I'm not expecting you do anything except disapprove crappy behaviour.

[PrinnyExplodes]

Ya this company is shady enough. Too bad everything got deleted from the drive and the site. 

[ITScary]

1 hour ago, PrinnyExplodes said:

Ya this company is shady enough. Too bad everything got deleted from the drive and the site. 

Pretty sure there are copies of everything floating around..    *cough*.   Its the internet.  Nothing generally goes away

 

[ITScary]

2 hours ago, SGT-AMD said:

From what I see, I believe that this company is having money issues.

I hope not. My son eventally wants to get his card or his money back. 

 

Would be a real kick in the face  to wait 2-6 months only to find out they went out "NCIX style",  took the deposits with them, and personal data gets released through the sale of their servers.

[LogicalDrm]

9 hours ago, TheDuke77 said:

So laws against scalping tickets don't apply to GPUS? how are tickets different? Your research shows that tickets were the most common item to be scalped. The LAW applies to items being scalped in general... its much harder to prove an individual is scalping... But VLCanada in BC is selling GPUs for 3x the price, they are a company and that is illegal.

Might be hard to prove CC is willingly doing it with their custom build program. but this reddit post is a PSA, and confirmed alot of people who have been waiting for cards, whats really going on.

How is it that when I ask for source, people refuse to give it? No I'm not Canadian, and finding your laws is the difficulty for me. Google says the laws only apply to tickets, not retail items. And even with law in place, there have been accusations of scalping tickets. So I ask again, source?

 

If we would be talking about our laws, I would give you links about now. I don't cite anything unless I'm sure I'm citing it correctly.

 

9 hours ago, TheDuke77 said:

So because i use it for business, it should pay scalper price? Because i can afford it, but it'll only make my margins smaller?? what???? are you serious???

 

How you're a moderator of any kind baffles me...

9 hours ago, TheDuke77 said:

moderators are not supposed to add to the fire. he's saying that people are crying about not having their GPUs. LTT will probably talk about this as they tweeted it. You gona say Linus is crying too? its an issue that needed to be brought to light and people are reacting to it. Its pretty sad the reddit thread as more compassion than this thread. Morals might be the better term...

Ok, it seems that you don't understand some terms here. MSRP = Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price. Scalping/scalper = Act of reselling retail items of high demand over the price of what retailers sell them with. Or in other words, buying high counts of high demand items at retail price, then selling them through 2nd hand markets.

 

Now to what I said. As I didn't say you should be going to 2nd hand market, and paying to those who have bough from retailers. I said that if you are making money with the tools you buy, you have more room to suck up mark up price of retailers. Or you could have been smarter and made leasing agreement with middleman who would have supplied you the hardware according to contract you have.

 

Now lets go back to those terms. MSRP is what manufacturer suggests price could be. This is, in my understanding, a price where they get some profit margin even after shipping and import costs. However, they are not obligated to use that pricing. The pricing of retailers is determined by competition from other retailers. There's retailer with lower prices? Surely you as consumer would be going there then? Forcing others to lower prices. There retailer with stock, but higher prices? How much you actually need the card and how much you lose money on it long-term as business? This is normal capitalism, and quite normal way for business to be run. 

 

As for my morals and ethics. I have 0 tolerance for BS. You either provide your proof or shut it. You either learn by yourself or be taught by me. I don't support many things, one of them being higher pricing for no apparent reason. I have been telling this for years. If you buy high priced GPUs, manufacturers will keep raising prices. Thats part of the current problem. But I also can't stand it when someone says they are in here to make money, but are unwilling to pay bit more for it. And thats why you are questioning my morals/ethics. I should be questioning your ethics of going for same pool of consumer hardware to get profit out of it.

 

Shame on you, you are same as miners. /s

[Mark Kaine]

11 hours ago, LogicalDrm said:

Like I said, if there is deposit been made, then these people should be contacting local consumer protection agency about now.

i agree, even going to a laywer wouldn't be a bad idea, especially since i don't think anyone here  actually knows the laws about this, i just  think the fact they put a deposit entitles them to something, and imo a refund is only acceptable if the item is actually not available (which  is precisely the issue here )

 

11 hours ago, LogicalDrm said:

Not posting these rants without evidence on random forums. With intention of causing havoc.

i think they're just trying to rise awarness, nothing wrong about that , but  the reception has been awful, something they couldn't know, reception on the reddit thread has been  a lot better, which may be because it's a more suitable subforum, but it still stands, the dismissal reception here isnt something id have expected on such a subject, and lots of armchair lawyers that state.their opinion as absolute fact, and somehow always in favor of CC...

 

Actually this  should be something  certain youtube channels should pick up ideally, especially if i was in canada this would be a big concern to me, especially the legal implications.

 

 

Edit:  

Quote

without evidence

 

Actually, i noted this earlier, i wasn't able to access the google drive link, which was suspicious...

 

And , meanwhile the OP on the reddit thread has been deleted, even though the thread itself is still up...?

So looks OP got cold feet or was pressured by CC to take it down?  We will probably never know,  but it has been pointed out , if what OP is claiming is true , even in part, this was a very dangerous endeavour for him to go plublic in this way , which he maybe wasn't even fully aware of...

 

Still the take away for me is that CC seems to be one shady company, its not the first time they're accused of similar behaviour either iirc.  

[TheDuke77]

im afraid to post and have my post removed again for putting facts out here.

 

Here's proof

 

"What does this mean for businesses?

The penalties under the Ontario Act for violating the new Ontario order are steep. If convicted, a company director or officer could face a fine of up to CAD 500,000 and up to one year in prison, while corporations may be fined up to CAD 10 million. Any individual engaged in price gouging may face a ticket of CAD 750, or, if charged and convicted, a fine of up to CAD 100,000 and up to a year imprisonment."

 

Pricing Goods and Services in the Time of COVID-19: Canadian Government Measures Against Price-Gouging | Insight | Baker McKenzie

 

Tell me again im full of BS.... you're pathetic

 

Forums are meant for people to discuss things. I didnt start out like this, you got me here with your attitude of "im a mod and untouchable"

[AlexP11223]

6 minutes ago, TheDuke77 said:

Tell me again im full of BS.... you're pathetic

Did you read the article you linked?

 

Quote

The order, which will remain in place for the duration of the state of emergency, prohibits all retail businesses and individuals in Ontario from charging “unconscionable prices” for “necessary goods”

GPU is not in the list of necessary goods, even with the list extension they added there.

Quote

In addition to referring broadly to “necessary goods”, defined under the Ontario Act to include food, water, electricity, fossil fuels, clothing, equipment, transportation and medical services and supplies, the order also specifically calls out the following health and safety products:

 

[TheDuke77]

4 minutes ago, AlexP11223 said:

Did you read the article you linked?

 

GPU is not a necessary good.

i did read. Yes GPUs can be considered essential for graphic design. No GPUs, no signs...whos gona make covid signs?

[AlexP11223]

Yeah, sure, then games are necessary too, otherwise people will be unhappy, work less productively and create bad signs.

 

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/200098

 

Quote

For greater certainty, “necessary goods” includes the following:

1. Masks and gloves used as personal protective equipment in relation to infections.

2. Non-prescription medications for the treatment of the symptoms of the coronavirus (COVID-19), as those symptoms are described by Public Health Ontario.

3. Disinfecting agents intended for cleaning and disinfecting objects or humans.

4. Personal hygiene products, including soap products and paper products.

 

[dalekphalm]

2 hours ago, TheDuke77 said:

im afraid to post and have my post removed again for putting facts out here.

Did someone at LTT remove your post? As far as I can tell, your original post on page 2 is still there.

2 hours ago, TheDuke77 said:

Here's proof

 

"What does this mean for businesses?

The penalties under the Ontario Act for violating the new Ontario order are steep. If convicted, a company director or officer could face a fine of up to CAD 500,000 and up to one year in prison, while corporations may be fined up to CAD 10 million. Any individual engaged in price gouging may face a ticket of CAD 750, or, if charged and convicted, a fine of up to CAD 100,000 and up to a year imprisonment."

 

Pricing Goods and Services in the Time of COVID-19: Canadian Government Measures Against Price-Gouging | Insight | Baker McKenzie

That's not proof - as others have pointed out, I don't think GPU's are on the list of essential goods.

2 hours ago, TheDuke77 said:

Tell me again im full of BS.... you're pathetic

You're personally attacking them again. Don't do that.

2 hours ago, TheDuke77 said:

Forums are meant for people to discuss things. I didnt start out like this, you got me here with your attitude of "im a mod and untouchable"

I don't recall him saying he was untouchable.

 

Argue his points, don't attack his character.

 

Aside from that, no, GPU's are not "essential" for graphic design (especially if we're talking 2D designs such as creating signs, like your example). I can do graphic design on my laptop with an Intel CPU and an iGPU. Publisher still works. Illustrator would work if I owned it. Photoshop and GIMP still work.

 

Would my productivity still be affected negatively? Yes, perhaps. It depends on the type of work I do precisely.

 

Furthermore, the primary reason GPU prices are fucked is because of massive stock issues. COVID has certainly contributed to that, but is hardly the cause (stock and pricing was already fucked before COVID started).

 

IF Canada Computers is really guilty of some of the things accused, that's bad. But there's definitely not concrete proof of it. Them prioritizing their PC Building business is not inherently bad. It's only bad if no backorders are being fulfilled, and I sure as heck haven't seen good proof of that yet.

 

9 hours ago, ITScary said:

I hope not. My son eventally wants to get his card or his money back. 

I'm fairly sure CC has already started offering refunds those those who don't want to wait. Your son can get his money back right now, today, if they called CC and canceled their pre-order.

 

Of course, they'd lose their spot in line. Whether that's a problem or not is up to the individual to decide.

9 hours ago, ITScary said:

Would be a real kick in the face  to wait 2-6 months only to find out they went out "NCIX style",  took the deposits with them, and personal data gets released through the sale of their servers.

I don't think CC is going out of business anytime soon. I mean sure it's possible - any business can fail suddenly, but I think that particular worry is most likely unfounded.

 

There are a few other PC Component businesses in Canada - Memory Express in particular is a good alternative. NewEgg Canada is decent (customer service is a bit iffy) if you're shopping online - just make sure to sort by products sold by NewEgg only.