Dell SCAMMED Me - $1500 PC Secret Shopper 2 Part 4

[charlie_root]

4 hours ago, BaidDSB said:

That isnt our problem though. Yes most of us Indians havent even used a computer yet much less Gaming PCs. SO obviously its gonna be out of their range. But that doesnt mean racists should come and start with the "hurr durr indians bad poop street" bullshit like i have seen in some of the comments on Youtube and twitter. Its Dell's problem of not paying people anywhere because even in India they can pay more to get better support staff. 

The issue is Dell's alone, not the operators. Which is why i dont like Linus bashing Origin PC. They probably pay their staff well which translates to higher end user prices. Its not bad at all. Better have well paid and knowledgeable staff than all cost cut cheaper PCs.

The "Indian call center" thing became a meme just because there are tons of these Indian tech call center companies out there. Not because Indians are dumb; it's really just a combination of India having both a rapidly expanding tech sector and comparatively low wages that makes it an attractive location for companies that want to outsource IT stuff as cheaply as possible, so lots of those businesses pop up in India to meet the demand. I'm sure they hire literally anyone, give them a script, and have them answer these calls. They could hire actual experts obviously, but then they wouldn't be cheap, and that defeats their entire purpose.

 

If Dell could get away with paying their own staff in the US pennies a day to answer calls, they would. If they could find a cheaper call center in a different country, they would. India just has the right combination of economic factors that make these IT call center businesses popular there.

[Egg-Roll]

1 hour ago, charlie_root said:

If Dell could get away with paying their own staff in the US pennies a day to answer calls, they would. If they could find a call center in a different country to outsource to that was cheaper, they would. India just has the right combination of economic factors that make these IT call center businesses popular there.

Governments need to make laws to have call centers within their own countries(esp in NA, surprised Trump didn't do that as it would have been the easiest thing to do and would have created thousands of jobs over night w/o causing tension with allies via tariffs), time zones, or at least getting paid the lowest wage legally allowed in their own country (not the outsourced one unless it is greater). Won't stop the whole "that person has accent so they must live in X" BS displayed in this topic however, but would at least promote better living if outsourced. (still might be cheaper in India even then, but at least they are getting paid decently and not as low as 30 cents a hour and might force a better living among everyone in said country as well)

I understand that it goes against the will and "freedom" of corporations but with how Dell has been acting, I think it is time for such a law. Tho I've seen many companies bring back support to the countries of service in the past few years which is great to see.

 

Personally I think the best tech support I've ever had was from Egypt lol... That was years ago however.

 

India also has the largest or second largest English speaking population in the world, so for a company trying to cheap out it's a win/win. Last study found was back in 2012 with 125 million.

[charlie_root]

25 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

 

India also has the largest or second largest English speaking population in the world, so for a company trying to cheap out it's a win/win. Last study found was back in 2012 with 125 million.

I neglected to mention this, but you are absolutely right. India's huge population of English speakers may even be the biggest reason they have so many of these call centers. Cheap labor + big IT sector + large English speaking population  = perfect location for outsourcing IT.

[charlie_root]

15 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Well, Dell used to be pretty good ages ago... then the company went public... and this is where things fell apart rather quickly. Things just collapsed when PC sales went down, where the company was, like the other big manufactures at the time, in a price war for years (cutting all corners to deliver the lowest price for the given spaces. Think: crappy coolers, unbalanced specs, plastic screen hinges (I am looking at you HP on those 2 last points), etc.), all at the same time, pushing ridicules revenue target goals to please shareholders.

 

I think this horrible culture movement really entrenched itself in the company, especially this was something they did for years on end. Recently Michael Dell bought the company again, turned it back as a private one to save it from being extinguished (yes, it was worse than now... at least they have a decent system), but he definably over paid, and didn't have the money, and went with loans... which now has, I think, made the company be stuck in this crappy way of doing business to try a payoff this loan. I am not defending the company... this is not our problem. He is a CEO after all, with years of experience, there is no guess works on his actions.

 

I don't see how Dell can fix this, beside a complete upper and mid-level managerial restructure and even replacement, to bring in new business ideas, and remove the crap culture. But this is easier said than done. This has a high cost, financially, and that is probably something that Michael Dell isn't willing to spend (from his own pocket) and in the meantime, it could lead to make situation worse (mistaken that a mature company like Dell should not have, are doing, for example). Again, Michael Dell has the money...personal money... but isn't willing to use it. This isn't our problem, of course. 

Given their financial situation, I wonder if they would be better off downsizing and focus on what they do really well. For example, they do a good job with enterprise servers. The hardware is great, and the support is miles ahead of their consumer garbage. So sell off Alienware because they clearly have no idea how to run a gaming PC business. Get rid of the low priced consumer crap because the margins are low and the poor support/quality just creates a bad reputation that hurts the brand. Make good quality business desktops and laptops, and keep the server/enterprise side doing their thing.

[ToboRobot]

 

5 minutes ago, charlie_root said:

Given their financial situation, I wonder if they would be better off downsizing and focus on what they do really well. For example, they do a good job with enterprise servers. The hardware is great, and the support is miles ahead of their consumer garbage. So sell off Alienware because they clearly have no idea how to run a gaming PC business. Get rid of the low priced consumer crap because the margins are low and the poor support/quality just creates a bad reputation that hurts the brand. Make good quality business desktops and laptops, and keep the server/enterprise side doing their thing.

I'm fairly confident that their business model relies on economies of scale.  Consumer crap, gaming, enterprise, all that buying power gets aggregated and used to secure competitive prices for everything.

I think they could run business units like Alienware as separate and allowing them to have their own sales/support teams. 

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, charlie_root said:

The "Indian call center" thing became a meme just because there are tons of these Indian tech call center companies out there. Not because Indians are dumb; it's really just a combination of India having both a rapidly expanding tech sector and comparatively low wages that makes it an attractive location for companies that want to outsource IT stuff as cheaply as possible, so lots of those businesses pop up in India to meet the demand. I'm sure they hire literally anyone, give them a script, and have them answer these calls. They could hire actual experts obviously, but then they wouldn't be cheap, and that defeats their entire purpose.

You can train employees. The big problem is ultra-greed. Companies moved their sales/support staff to India because wages costs less and technically speaking "they can do the same job", however, what companies miss is that a lot of a training is needed, and getting good knowledgeable people costs more. In the end, they won't save much... and probably not actually worth it. So, to make it worth it, they skip on proper training, and hire anyone with limited knowledge, to save every penny, and the end result is this. Poor knowledgeable staff.

 

This is the kind of idea that sounds great on paper "Hey! They just read scripts on screen!", The reality is that scripts break the moment the conversation doesn't fall exactly as expected. The support or sales person doesn't have the knowledge and experience to help someone properly.

 

1 hour ago, charlie_root said:

If Dell could get away with paying their own staff in the US pennies a day to answer calls, they would. If they could find a cheaper call center in a different country, they would. India just has the right combination of economic factors that make these IT call center businesses popular there.

In all honesty, you always get what you paid for when it comes to this. Sure, you still have to be careful on who you hire. For sure, even in the US or Canada, if they hire people, regardless of pay, they may be shit, but in general, it is probably easier to hire people doing a great job at minimum wage here then it is in other lower wages countries, where you pay them a low or minimum wage there. 

 

Did you ever call Nintendo Canada or US? Amazing service. Super cheerful people, you can see that they hand pick people who loves to help, and I don't think they have a high turn-over either... probably the least among all companies. And if you are nice to them, they'll be double nice to you. "Out of warranty?! Looks like it is in warranty to me!" type of service you get. Logitech, while I haven't experienced their service in their recent years, also has fantastic service. To me, this kind of service, or knowing that I have this service available to me if I need it, justified the premium price of their products (Nintendo and Logitech). And in the end, if they can balance off quality with the sell price properly, I think, these companies make money. As they can justify the high price (which really is increased profits), despite having a more costly after-sale service. By the way, Logitech is also the type of company where if you call, out of warranty, and be extra nice, they'll magically bring your product fall in-warranty and cover the repair.

 

[GoodBytes]

I would like Linus do something similar to this with computer hardware in the DIY space, and actually RMA the part and see the experience.

Something like motherboard manufactures. Who offer the best service? Same for graphics cards manufactures.

Especially with the high prices these company now commands, I would like to see if their after-sale service improve... or they are just pocketing the money as profits.

[Velcade]

2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I would like Linus do something similar to this with computer hardware in the DIY space, and actually RMA the part and see the experience.

Something like motherboard manufactures. Who offer the best service? Same for graphics cards manufactures.

This would be a loooong test process.  Since typically early on the RMA would happen through the place you bought the item.

 

If my motherboards dies right after I get it, I get a replacement from Newegg.  If my HDD arrives DOA I get a replacement from Amazon...  etc

[Lord Vile]

59 minutes ago, charlie_root said:

Given their financial situation, I wonder if they would be better off downsizing and focus on what they do really well. For example, they do a good job with enterprise servers. The hardware is great, and the support is miles ahead of their consumer garbage. So sell off Alienware because they clearly have no idea how to run a gaming PC business. Get rid of the low priced consumer crap because the margins are low and the poor support/quality just creates a bad reputation that hurts the brand. Make good quality business desktops and laptops, and keep the server/enterprise side doing their thing.

Most of their profit will be from high volume, lower margin sales outside of enterprise. Sure they might get say $500 margin on an XPS model but they might sell 5% of the volume compared to the rock bottom laptop that has a $50 margin so overall they're making more profit on the cheaper stuff. 

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, charlie_root said:

Given their financial situation, I wonder if they would be better off downsizing and focus on what they do really well. For example, they do a good job with enterprise servers. The hardware is great, and the support is miles ahead of their consumer garbage. So sell off Alienware because they clearly have no idea how to run a gaming PC business. Get rid of the low priced consumer crap because the margins are low and the poor support/quality just creates a bad reputation that hurts the brand. Make good quality business desktops and laptops, and keep the server/enterprise side doing their thing.

Yea, this is a very complex topic.  They are ups and downs to this.

So, I think, yes you are right, but as mentioned, their large market share they have allowed them to have immense power in not only do meaningful price negotiation with chip manufactures. Also, it permits them to have access to loans for investments, and justify them making their own hardware, and not have to rely to... say... EVGA for the GPU or something. (You might say: Oh eVGA! That would be amazing! True, but the people who buys a Dell, doesn't really care... and Dell stuff, despite looking crappy, are following reference designs given... so, they tend to deliver the expected performance. Besides, even if eVGA (or whatever manufacture) would do something with Dell, Dell would ask to save every penny, and you'll just end up with the same hardware, but now it costs Dell, and in turn its customers, more money).

 

What they could maybe do, is separate Alienware a bit, but still be part of Dell. Basically, same as now, but have its own after-sale and sale staff, where they would offer a superior service. A bit like what Dell (not sure if that is the case now, but back in 2008 it was the case) business and home. Home was the shit service, but you have access to order low costs devices. On the business side, you had superior sale, after-sale and even warranty service, of course, the business class system costs more, as it paid for that added service. but it did give you access to the premium consumer line devices... so, like the XPS (which remained the same price). So back then, at least, you were better off calling Dell Small Business, say you are freelance, and buy the XPS from there (or do it online), then go through Home section. You end up with the same price, but get a notably superior service during the sale, and access to their business line service, which was, in my experience, decent.

 

Dell biggest win, which Linus didn't consider, is that Dell offers next business day on-site service. So, you have a local technician, certified to work with Dell systems, come at your place, at the time you want (assuming reasonable time), and come and fix your system, in front of you, avoiding you of shipping the system to them. When you want a system with least downtime as possible, this is an excellent premium service to get. Also, you can make sure that the problem was understood over the phone, and properly fixed before the tech leaves. The worse, is when you ship your system to them, and because the problem on the phone didn't really understand put crap on their notes, you get it back with a "no problem found" note, loosing 2 weeks, and another 2 weeks (not to mention the callback you would need to redo), to now have it fixed... hopefully.

 

If Dell split that service of Alienware, at least, in my book, it would better justify the premium price they sale these systems.

You can say: Sure, it is overpriced, but at least if a non-tech buyer (which would be the typical buyer of such system) would have great after sale service, which could justify to some the premium. But as of right now... you get the same service as any other Dell system, and the engineering of components is also identical. Nothing special. Just overpriced, to be overpriced, no true value added to the product.

 

[terminalinfinity]

12 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

 

Dell biggest win, which Linus didn't consider, is that Dell offers next business day on-site service. So, you have a local technician, certified to work with Dell systems, come at your place, at the time you want (assuming reasonable time), and come and fix your system, in front of you, avoiding you of shipping the system to them. When you want a system with least downtime as possible, this is an excellent premium service to get. Also, you can make sure that the problem was understood over the phone, and properly fixed before the tech leaves. The worse, is when you ship your system to them, and because the problem on the phone didn't really understand put crap on their notes, you get it back with a "no problem found" note, loosing 2 weeks, and another 2 weeks (not to mention the callback you would need to redo), to now have it fixed... hopefully.

 

 

Something I pointed out on the tech support thread was that despite the fact that Linus paid for "On site service", when he ended up with an "unfixable" problem (LOL) he was still told to ship in back.  So...IMO this video couldn't have turned out any worse because it shows even if you pay for "peace of mind", you're not going to get anything that you paid for

 

I mean, take out the on-site service for a second, they were double charged for "Premium support" and "Premium support with on-site service".

To me that means they offer a just "premium support" option, which I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around.  Because if I knew dell call centers were based in India, and I paid for just "Premium support", I'd assume what I was paying for was talking to US-based reps. (Or at least somewhere where English is a native tongue.  UK, Australia etc)  If I pay for premium support and I just end up talking to India, what exactly did I pay for?  Because the person LTT got for tech support was probably India-based, and seemed to refuse want to attempt anything that involved opening the case.

 

That's why I think they got the run around on the phone BTW.  The rep was trying everything but something involving messing with the actual hardware because he's probably not allowed to by policy.

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, terminalinfinity said:

Something I pointed out on the tech support thread was that despite the fact that Linus paid for "On site service", when he ended up with an "unfixable" problem (LOL) he was still told to ship in back.  So...IMO this video couldn't have turned out any worse because it shows even if you pay for "peace of mind", you're not going to get anything that you paid for

 

I mean, take out the on-site service for a second, they were double charged for "Premium support" and "Premium support with on-site service".

 

Not defending Dell, but if I were to guess the problem, it would be, that: Based off the fact that on the website only gives you either option. Probably the system of the tech support who shows the service one got only support 1 entry to be displayed. 

 

Now, in this case, they got charged twice, as you mentioned, but I think only 1 option of the 2 plans would be displayed on the screen, and probably as this is an unexpected situation from a dev implementing such feature in a program (I am talking about, corner case I would not expect, personally), then the system broke, and probably showed, the last entry inserted into the database, which was probably the base 3 years warranty instead of the premium on-site service.

 

So, to me it would be a bug actively used by the sale rep to increase their goals (at least I would assume that there is a bug that allows them to put 2 warranties), and breaks the system.

 

Alternatively, the support staff faces training problem, and doesn't know about on-site service. Not knowing services that the company you work for offer, is obviously a huge problem, especially that this isn't a new service by the company.

 

So, regardless of the actual issue, obviously, this is a huge, and unacceptable problem. Unless, and I just taught of this, there is a target goal to reduce on-site service. So, the support staff is being encouraged to not even mention about the service they got, and utilise it, as it costs money to the company. So, unless the consumer fights for it, they probably won't get it. Which is a possibility.

 

Quote

To me that means they offer a just "premium support" option, which I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around.  Because if I knew dell call centers were based in India, and I paid for just "Premium support", I'd assume what I was paying for was talking to US-based reps. (Or at least somewhere where English is a native tongue.  UK, Australia etc)  If I pay for premium support and I just end up talking to India, what exactly did I pay for?  Because the person LTT got for tech support was probably India-based, and seemed to refuse want to attempt anything that involved opening the case.

 

 

I don't blame you. It used to be someone more local... at least on their business side of things. That was long gone.

What was nice, is that the person was competent to skip part of their scripts when you list the things you tested already.

 

 

[Euchre]

I do think one thing needs to be added to the 'tests' for another round of the next (inevitable?) Secret Shopper: a 'customer experience' test, where you just let a real human play some games, that isn't one of the more savvy staffers. This whole thing is based on someone who can't or won't build their own PC under any circumstances buying one from a system integrator instead. Sara's experience with ordering and tech support is very clearly included, but I'd like to then see their 'agent' representing the not as tech savvy consumer actually using the system, to see how they like them. Let's see just how different an experience they offer to a more casual gamer that buys rather than builds their system. This might tend to favor the likes of Origin a little more, if they can't really tell a difference in the gameplay experience between higher and lower spec machines. Also, other than the inclusion of streaming their gaming, there's no indication this test is based around a seriously competitive gamer, just someone who enjoys gaming.

 

I do think someone else's idea in a comment on YouTube would be good to add, too, and still could be to this one: the SI's response to their experience. I'm sure you'll get one from at least one OEM (wasn't it Maingear's CEO that commented?), but you could get a good idea just how truly effective they are at addressing their issues and improving upon them, at least intentionally.

 

I'm not a fan of Origin, but I do get their business model, and saying they don't need a shipping crate missed the point of that model. If you really think that, you must think Apple's packaging is absolutely absurd. The box the iPhone comes in was designed very intentionally to be solid, crisp edged, and tight, so it is like opening a fine jewelry box. The slow opening is supposed to provide anticipation and excitement - I'm not joking, they did it on purpose. Everything being wrapped in expensive plastic instead of a cheap clamshell blister pack is very important to getting the 'prestige' experience. Including a shirt and mousepad? That's like Apple putting logo stickers in every box. You paid a lot, and you want to show it off. This brings me to another idea about a comparison of SIs...

 

How about a comparison where the specs are the same, with no concern about price point. It is a lot harder to create an objective price to value scale for the quality of experience you get, like you can for performance numbers and fixed price. It would be interesting to see if benchmarks would actually come out the same, or if the SI's config or bloatware could ruin what should be a dead heat. Would having a super elite feeling experience justify the cost differences? That's what I'm sure Origin banks on, and might actually be what Maingear or Cyberpower deliver on.

 

I don't know if Canada has something like the Federal Trade Commission in the US, I would expect they do, but they might want to know about a clearly documented case of declining a product and then being billed for it anyway. Even worse when they apparently added both products which aren't supposed to be compatible to be carried on the same product.

[papajo]

8 hours ago, BaidDSB said:

That isnt our problem though. Yes most of us Indians havent even used a computer yet much less Gaming PCs. SO obviously its gonna be out of their range. But that doesnt mean racists should come and start with the "hurr durr indians bad poop street" bullshit like i have seen in some of the comments on Youtube and twitter. Its Dell's problem of not paying people anywhere because even in India they can pay more to get better support staff. 

The issue is Dell's alone, not the operators. Which is why i dont like Linus bashing Origin PC. They probably pay their staff well which translates to higher end user prices. Its not bad at all. Better have well paid and knowledgeable staff than all cost cut cheaper PCs.

Dude relax nobody said anything about India as a country.

 

 

Yes you could find better services if you paid more in india but those services would have fluent English speakers to begin with. 

 

 

And it is common knowledge that in India exist "sweatshop" like call centers it isnt something related to racism... This doesnt mean that Indians are lesser people, sweatshops exist (for electronics and clothing mostly) in places like china as well, India has more "phone center" oriented sweatshops. 

[Euchre]

27 minutes ago, papajo said:

Dude relax nobody said anything about India as a country.

 

 

Yes you could find better services if you paid more in india but those services would have fluent English speakers to begin with. 

 

 

And it is common knowledge that in India exist "sweatshop" like call centers it isnt something related to racism... This doesnt mean that Indians are lesser people, sweatshops exist (for electronics and clothing mostly) in places like china as well, India has more "phone center" oriented sweatshops. 

India is in a business game not unlike China - you can get your outsourced product, in a quality proportional to what you spend to get it. In China, it is physical products, but in India, it is usually service products. The downside of such money scaled business models is that the bottom breeds a lot of outright fraudulent businesses, and that bleeds upward into the middle of the same industry. Watch Jim Brownings video about scams, and so far basically ALL of the call centers have been in India. The reason? Not because India is some terrible, shady culture - because with so many call centers, it is easy to pick up the infrastructure, skills, and labor to make one for any business, including illicit ones. That's why you'll get a range of decent phone support to outright scams, and you'll hear the same accent in the voice.

 

The Dell 'rep' being an outsourced worker creates this problem for a variety of reasons, but geography plays less of a role than greed. Dell's greed means they'll go for the cheapest, while setting their standards and expectations toward maximum profit. Sure, if you are literally on the other side of the planet it is easier to treat people less nicely and honestly, but you still need a motivation to do so. I'm sure Dell pushes their outsourced call centers to produce high numbers of warranty upsells, as the sales to redemption numbers are seriously in their favor. Dell probably even pays the call center a per sale, direct incentive to upsell the warranties. Might even do the same for antivirus upsells (which Dell doesn't even have to support once sold - BONUS!). That would get passed along by the call center either in a commission to the rep (ideally), or as a quota upon which one's employment might rely (crappiest situation). That means the rep was motivated to fraudulently add the warranties, without concern for serious repercussions. As I noted in the YouTube comments, the rep probably won't be fired, but could be removed from the Dell operations of what is likely a call center serving many companies globally. So, for this 'scam', they're not likely to lose their job, but be reassigned to another vendor's support, where similar conditions would eventually lead to a similar outcome, because companies be greedy things.

[papajo]

36 minutes ago, Euchre said:

I'm sure Dell pushes their outsourced call centers to produce high numbers of warranty upsells

I haven't worked in a sweat shop but I worked in some "jobs" like that in the past (no pay just commission from sales) so I can somewhat "scale" it better and somewhat relate to the "mentality"

 

E.g I used to do door to door sales for ISP contracts.  The amount of BS you could hear from us had many shapes and forms (just like greasy car salesmen ) but that wasnt the ISPs policy

 

The ISP outsourced this to a "marketing group" we "worked" at that marketing group (I put quotes since we didnt have a salary the only source of income was a small commission per contract signed) 

 

and people will do stuff to get those crumbs.... I mean not technically illegal (or maybe barely illegal at the extremes )

 

E.g Fake claims of offers (like not selling at a fake price but claiming that this price was an offer for the people in this block which it was not) or fake claims of faster speeds compared to the current ISP in that neighborhood or saying that "soon our ISP is going to bring fiber here" or knocking on doors like on 9a.m etc 

 

 

NOTHING of that was the ISPs policy or the ISP's instruction towards us infact we never met a representative from the ISP whos contracts we were selling. 

 

But if you have to work 10 hours a day walking your ass out and get 0 income while not being able to get an other job at the time and/or having a family or bills piling up I can assure you you will do such things.  

 

Especially if you dont know about how networks and the internet works (I was young back then but I had people working with me that because of their age they barely knew how to operate a PC so they just used "fancy" "techy" jargon they dont understand e.g "bandwidth" "you will have an increased bandwidth" just because they noticed people tend to accept the deal more when they hear those words) 

 

So it is not unreasonable for me to believe that this person gets like 20$ a month (if she gets paid at all that is) and pushes for commissions which she personally again wont get much (maybe like 10$ for each commission but again 10$ is already 50% of her monthly income already if she has a steady monthly income that is) 

 

So it is just Dell who cheaps out on customer service I doubt that Dell didnt want you to buy an alienware or want you to have 1 stick of ram instead of 2 sticks of ram etc..

 

 In fact (although I can't prove that just a gut feeling) that lady may have thought that she did a good thing by selling one BIGGER stick of ram instead of two smaller ones since it was at the same price!  (<-- logic of people that are not familiar with PC hardware and know just the absolute basics like e.g the PC has 4 slots why to occupy 2 of them if you can just occupy 1 of them and have the same memory??  profit! ) 

[charlie_root]

1 hour ago, Euchre said:

I do think one thing needs to be added to the 'tests' for another round of the next (inevitable?) Secret Shopper: a 'customer experience' test, where you just let a real human play some games, that isn't one of the more savvy staffers. This whole thing is based on someone who can't or won't build their own PC under any circumstances buying one from a system integrator instead. Sara's experience with ordering and tech support is very clearly included, but I'd like to then see their 'agent' representing the not as tech savvy consumer actually using the system, to see how they like them. Let's see just how different an experience they offer to a more casual gamer that buys rather than builds their system. This might tend to favor the likes of Origin a little more, if they can't really tell a difference in the gameplay experience between higher and lower spec machines. Also, other than the inclusion of streaming their gaming, there's no indication this test is based around a seriously competitive gamer, just someone who enjoys gaming.

 

I do think someone else's idea in a comment on YouTube would be good to add, too, and still could be to this one: the SI's response to their experience. I'm sure you'll get one from at least one OEM (wasn't it Maingear's CEO that commented?), but you could get a good idea just how truly effective they are at addressing their issues and improving upon them, at least intentionally.

 

I'm not a fan of Origin, but I do get their business model, and saying they don't need a shipping crate missed the point of that model. If you really think that, you must think Apple's packaging is absolutely absurd. The box the iPhone comes in was designed very intentionally to be solid, crisp edged, and tight, so it is like opening a fine jewelry box. The slow opening is supposed to provide anticipation and excitement - I'm not joking, they did it on purpose. Everything being wrapped in expensive plastic instead of a cheap clamshell blister pack is very important to getting the 'prestige' experience. Including a shirt and mousepad? That's like Apple putting logo stickers in every box. You paid a lot, and you want to show it off. This brings me to another idea about a comparison of SIs...

 

How about a comparison where the specs are the same, with no concern about price point. It is a lot harder to create an objective price to value scale for the quality of experience you get, like you can for performance numbers and fixed price. It would be interesting to see if benchmarks would actually come out the same, or if the SI's config or bloatware could ruin what should be a dead heat. Would having a super elite feeling experience justify the cost differences? That's what I'm sure Origin banks on, and might actually be what Maingear or Cyberpower deliver on.

 

I don't know if Canada has something like the Federal Trade Commission in the US, I would expect they do, but they might want to know about a clearly documented case of declining a product and then being billed for it anyway. Even worse when they apparently added both products which aren't supposed to be compatible to be carried on the same product.

I agree with you here. It's not really about getting the most pure performance for your money; it's about getting what you want for your money. Somebody buying a prebuilt is not typically trying to squeeze every possible drop of speed out of their budget, or they would be building their own. Convenience, guidance, support, and other things matter more than that. As they were busy ragging on Origin about their specs, Sarah was totally happy with how the sales call went. And if the customer is also happy with how it can handle the games they play, then who cares if they could have had better performance with a different system? 

[papajo]

35 minutes ago, charlie_root said:

As they were busy ragging on Origin about their specs, Sarah was totally happy with how the sales call went. And if the customer is also happy with how it can handle the games they play, then who cares if they could have had better performance with a different system? 

Most care otherwise you would have seen PC part shops stressing their customer support and not their products etc or apple having the biggest share in Computer sales but they hang in on a 10% share or something like that. 

 

 

Some (vast minority) may not care hence niche boutique stores have a (semi malicious) reason to exist. 

 

This is a PC/tech forum so it obviously will focus on value in terms of PC hardware. 

 

 

[charlyignis]

dell needs some people that really knows about pc, not call center casual worker, the poor lady from dell was as lost a my grand ma at a electronics department in a mall

[deach]

Did Dell just commit credit card theft / fraud... a felony crime.

 

This should be taken more serious then simple calling it a scam and saying "dam you dell, you're so dodgy"... 

One of you're employees commit credit card theft and if it is widespread and systemic... people should be going to jail.

[papajo]

51 minutes ago, deach said:

Did Dell just commit credit card theft / fraud... a felony crime.

 

This should be taken more serious then simple calling it a scam and saying "dam you dell, you're so dodgy"... 

One of you're employees commit credit card theft and if it is widespread and systemic... people should be going to jail.

You can't go to jail for that. 

 

You just complain get refunded it stops there. If they refuse to refund you   (which they wont they will be like oh we are sorry we thought you would like to have extra warranty we will refund you -and canceling the  extra warranty-) then you could like address this via a consumer rights department and you will eventually get refunded and it stops there.

 

In order to have the government to fine them etc you would have to have hard evidence that would stand as such on court (a video of linus getting ripped off wouldn't prove anything more than this particular rep's incompetence to follow guidelines so you wou need multiple people at least a 3 digit number that would testify of getting warranties they refused to pay for and also be able to prove that they indeed refused but got charged nevertheless*)  and sue them. Nobody has the time, money and power of will to do that. 

 

*Edit while thinking about it also wouldnt be enough they just could just spin it up and claim that this is the fault of the call center not following policy so you also need proof/evidence of a dell authority figure to explicitly instruct said call center directors to charge for extra warranties no matter what the customer said) 

[deach]

1 hour ago, papajo said:

You can't go to jail for that. 

 

You just complain get refunded it stops there. If they refuse to refund you   (which they wont they will be like oh we are sorry we thought you would like to have extra warranty we will refund you -and canceling the  extra warranty-) then you could like address this via a consumer rights department and you will eventually get refunded and it stops there.

 

In order to have the government to fine them etc you would have to have hard evidence that would stand as such on court (a video of linus getting ripped off wouldn't prove anything more than this particular rep's incompetence to follow guidelines so you wou need multiple people at least a 3 digit number that would testify of getting warranties they refused to pay for and also be able to prove that they indeed refused but got charged nevertheless*)  and sue them. Nobody has the time, money and power of will to do that. 

 

*Edit while thinking about it also wouldnt be enough they just could just spin it up and claim that this is the fault of the call center not following policy so you also need proof/evidence of a dell authority figure to explicitly instruct said call center directors to charge for extra warranties no matter what the customer said) 

 

My point is pretty much your post. Its to hard, government wont do anything, Dell will scapegoat someone, find some lame excuse and refund. Oh well...move on.
 

IMO this is only one incident but that's 1 from 1, that's decent strike rate... Like Linus said, everyone should check their Dell invoices. Who knows how widespread this is. And hard evidence is easily obtainable. Sales calls are recorded for specifically this reason. Invoices need to match recordings. 

LTT should do a follow up and dispute the charges, see what their response is... see if they make it easy refund. If they do, its even more suspect... Bet they throw in a free mouse pad to keep people happy. 

 

 

Edit: Happy and quite.

 

[WhitetailAni]

Possible punishment for the Dell PC:
Wrecking ball test

 

elephants

[Egg-Roll]

3 hours ago, papajo said:

In order to have the government to fine them etc you would have to have hard evidence that would stand as such on court (a video of linus getting ripped off wouldn't prove anything more than this particular rep's incompetence to follow guidelines so you wou need multiple people at least a 3 digit number that would testify of getting warranties they refused to pay for and also be able to prove that they indeed refused but got charged nevertheless*)  and sue them. Nobody has the time, money and power of will to do that. 

 

*Edit while thinking about it also wouldnt be enough they just could just spin it up and claim that this is the fault of the call center not following policy so you also need proof/evidence of a dell authority figure to explicitly instruct said call center directors to charge for extra warranties no matter what the customer said) 

You don't need to sue Dell at all, a government order (usually followed by a hefty fine) can demand Dell to return any warranty costs consumers claim were put on illegally, with the acknowledgment they lose all warranty rights of said program, similar to a class action suit, which is another way to go if enough evidence is displayed and usually those cost you the consumer nothing but your name, mailing address and email. In fact you don't even need to buy a single thing to find out if it is a one off.

 

All one has to do is basically call them up get a quote and compare it to the site w/o the warranty and make sure it is audio recorded at least. You also don't need 3 digit numbers, you just need to prove reasonable grounds that to some extent somewhere within Dells corporation someone or bodies of are scamming consumers. Ten audio recordings scattered threw out a period of time with different people on the phone is sufficient, even 3 might do including Linus's. How many it takes to get that number is irreverent (but I doubt it will take very long) as long as the people doing it on the other end (Dells side) are all clearly different people.

 

The reason why the website won't screw you over is because they can't get away with charging you extra w/o your permission/knowing, where as on the phone they won't tell you the upgrade prices therefore they can easily tack on whatever they want that is within your budget and give you worst equipment. It is illegal however if they don't record their end (or destroy it before you complain or gov requests it) and you don't record yours it's all hearsay.

 

Who should do it? Not likely the average person, but the media(tho anyone buying from dell should record their calls if legally allowed to by local laws for self protection from this potential scam). The CBC Marketplace does this kind of stuff all the time and has caused changes. Now I'm not sure about the USA but in Canada it is perfectly legal to record your surroundings w/o telling anyone less where prohibited (like in courtrooms), this means one can use a audio recorder and have it in your hand (or second phone as one) and put your phone on speakerphone. Neither the government nor the courts here can throw out said recording as not evidence, if the recording was done within a personal residence like property you own/rent or your car you might not need it on your body, however this I'm unsure but security/dash cameras with audio are 100% legal here.

[XWAUForceflow]

So I rewatched the video, and while I do think what Dell did was very scammy, I don't think it was technically illegal and it certainly wasn't fraud. If you go to here:

(9:39 in case the timecode doesn't work) it seems that they send Sarah a quote. Meaning that this is what they offered her in writing with fairly clear descriptions before she paid for it. So at this point her accepting the quote and saying 'yes this is okay, this is what I want to buy' it most likely became a legal thing. (While still being really shitty of course)

 

So I do think it was a very wise move from Linus to not title the latest video Dell defrauding him. It might still have been illegal and he would be able to get the money back I think, but I don't think it reaches the level of fraud.