Is there a point to buying dacs

[spartaman64]

I heard that the only difference you hear between different dacs is because of the small preamp in them and otherwise they are completely the same. If thats the case then why do people buy dacs and sometimes ones that cost 2000+?

[Alex Ushigome]

You will hear differences in DACs, even if your headphones are easy to drive, or $50, as what a DAC actually does beyond just producing an analogue audio signal for you to listen to, is to reproduce that signal as close as humanly possible to it's original source sound, without colouring it. I can hear the difference between my various DACs, using the same dedicated amp, because of said colouring. Would I recommend 2k though? God no. I wouldn't even recommend spending over $500 at most.

[jaslion]

2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

I heard that the only difference you hear between different dacs is because of the small preamp in them and otherwise they are completely the same. If thats the case then why do people buy dacs and sometimes ones that cost 2000+?

Having enough power to drive their headphones but then again most budget ones can easily drive anything to a point where you get eardamage. Other than flaunting about them and looking for that super ultra minor added thing the expensive ones do I would not know.

[spartaman64]

5 minutes ago, Alex Ushigome said:

You will hear differences in DACs, even if your headphones are easy to drive, or $50, as what a DAC actually does beyond just producing an analogue audio signal for you to listen to, is to reproduce that signal as close as humanly possible to it's original source sound, without colouring it. I can hear the difference between my various DACs, using the same dedicated amp, because of said colouring. Would I recommend 2k though? God no. I wouldn't even recommend spending over $500 at most.

 

5 minutes ago, jaslion said:

Having enough power to drive their headphones but then again most budget ones can easily drive anything to a point where you get eardamage. Other than flaunting about them and looking for that super ultra minor added thing the expensive ones do I would not know.

but i thought its the amp that makes the difference when it comes to hard to drive headphones and dacs dont really make a difference in that regard

[jaslion]

4 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

 

but i thought its the amp that makes the difference when it comes to hard to drive headphones and dacs dont really make a difference in that regard

Both do that. It's just a mess on what does what sometimes.

[Fatih19]

4 minutes ago, Alex Ushigome said:

You will hear differences in DACs, even if your headphones are easy to drive, or $50, as what a DAC actually does beyond just producing an analogue audio signal for you to listen to, is to reproduce that signal as close as humanly possible to it's original source sound, without colouring it. I can hear the difference between my various DACs, using the same dedicated amp, because of said colouring. Would I recommend 2k though? God no. I wouldn't even recommend spending over $500 at most.

Does that only extend to headphones would the difference be noticable to speakers as well? I have Logitech Z313 and wanted to consider it.

[jaslion]

Just now, Fatih19 said:

Does that only extend to headphones would the difference be noticable to speakers as well? I have Logitech Z313 and wanted to consider it.

Those are low end budget speakers. Getting anything for those is pointless as they'll never sound as good as something more higher end. If you really want some value for the money go look for some speakers in a thrift store or up cycling store that connect to a amp. Usually you can easily get a pair for 10$ and the employees there don't really know what is good part from like oh this is a sony so 5$ more even if the speaker sounds horrible compared to some more unknown sounding name like shure.

 

A decent amp is easy to find for under 50 too.

 

I've gotten some stupid good stuff. Some older phillips, some shure's some really nice panasonic studio monitors,... really a treasuretrove. That and if you want more base just look for a subwoofer. If you want more trebble or surround sound if the amp allows it hook it up.

 

I made a full dolby atmos setup for 64€. The technics amp had a blown cap and would turn off after minor load was pulled from it. I used 2 older phillips speakers that I did a common boosting hack from the 80's on to make them run at the same power as their bigger brother (same drivers just the ones that didn't reach quite the standard so were power limited) and then some smaller ones dotted around from audiotechnica and done. I think the most expensive part was the wires and solder I needed to make some extensions.

 

 

[Alex Ushigome]

11 minutes ago, Fatih19 said:

Does that only extend to headphones would the difference be noticable to speakers as well? I have Logitech Z313 and wanted to consider it.

As jaslion said, you're probably better off buying better speakers then a DAC or amp. While yes, a better DAC/cleaner amp will make them sound better, there's a certain level where anything under it's recommended to just buy better headphones/speakers, and the Z313 are under that bar.

[rice guru]

33 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

I heard that the only difference you hear between different dacs is because of the small preamp in them and otherwise they are completely the same. If thats the case then why do people buy dacs and sometimes ones that cost 2000+?

Yes and no. If you have sensitivitive enough hear a standalone dac is useful or if you need a specific format not normally supported by a normal motherboard. Another point is just taking your gear externally. The main differences between dacs are the chips implementation and that pre amp your talking about and if all 3 are good thats what most people spend the money on. Whether it's worth or not is ultimately up to the listener. The dac is important but certainly not as important as the headphones or speakers or the amp for that matter

[Kilrah]

1 hour ago, spartaman64 said:

but i thought its the amp that makes the difference when it comes to hard to drive headphones and dacs dont really make a difference in that regard

Most DACs are a DAC/amp combo...

[spartaman64]

5 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

Most DACs are a DAC/amp combo...

yep i was talking about DACs specifically. i know amps can make a difference especially with hard to drive headphones

[weeblord]

2 hours ago, Alex Ushigome said:

Would I recommend 2k though? God no. I wouldn't even recommend spending over $500 at most.

I have made this very detailed and useful graph to prove this person's point.

[Kilrah]

That's way less steep than reality...

[Derkoli]

3 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

I heard that the only difference you hear between different dacs is because of the small preamp in them and otherwise they are completely the same. If thats the case then why do people buy dacs and sometimes ones that cost 2000+?

There is some truth in the statement that the difference comes from the analogue section of a DAC. The chip doesn't particularly make a massive, massive difference. Unless it's a weird DAC chip like a dCS Ring DAC or an FPGA.

 

As someone who's DAC costs near 11k, I may be biased in saying that DAC's do sound different. However, If they measure the same, they're gonna sound the same.

 

Would I recommend a really high end DAC to an average person? Hell no. However, if someone had a good system to back up a good DAC and wanted to pay that much, I would recommend a good option.

 

DAC's do not make as much difference as other components within a system. Dump money into your headphones/speakers and amplifier.

[weeblord]

1 hour ago, Kilrah said:

That's way less steep than reality...

Is this better?

[geo3]

14 minutes ago, Derkoli said:

DAC's do not make as much difference as other components within a system. Dump money into your headphones/speakers and amplifier.

This.

 

$100 is about as much as I would ever spend or recommend spending on a stand alone DAC. 

[HumdrumPenguin]

On 9/11/2020 at 10:16 AM, spartaman64 said:

I heard that the only difference you hear between different dacs is because of the small preamp in them and otherwise they are completely the same. If thats the case then why do people buy dacs and sometimes ones that cost 2000+?

You heard something from someone that can no longer hear.

 

A few things about DACs:

- There are many pure DACs without a pre-amp (mine included), so yeah, no remote control unless you get the pre-amp separately.

- A DAC architecture will vary; Delta Sigma, R2R ladder non-oversampling, Multibit... and they will all sound different.

- Most DACs are DS (chip based), so the implementation over chip architecture differs, but are restricted to be as good as the chip allows. Most people that have hands on experience with a DAC tried DS ones, think they've heard it all, and downplay what they haven't even tried based on someone else that heard from another person, that heard from their distant cousin from Japan. You get my point.

- It takes time listening to good stuff to finally go back, listen to something that is not quite there, and you may not even know why, but your brain will know something is off. Many other times, the difference goes beyond that.

 

It's hard talking value because a lot needs to be considered based on each individual needs, experiences, financial means, etc. You can build good bang for the buck systems, just like with PCs, but you can also explode your wallet buying audio gear if you wanted, easily (and I mean it) spending north of $20K.

[vsteel]

I think it is worth spending a little on a DAC but in order of importance I would rate it:

1. musical source - a crappy recording can't be fixed by all of the highest end equipment in existence.

2. speakers - this is what is actually making the sound and has the biggest effect in the actual physical change.

3. amp - makes the power that the speakers need to make the sound.

4. DAC - digital to analog, even not great ones are at least OK (of the ones I have heard)

 

I would also say there is a big gap between 2 and 3.  I listened to lots of speakers and settled on some B&W 805D3  I think listened to amps on those speakers and I could hear a difference up to a Luxman L-507uXII and a JL E110 sub.   When it finally came to a DAC I could only hear a difference up to a Musical Fidelity V90-DAC which is not very high up the chain. 

 

With my setup I have all of my music digitally saved on my computer in high res FLAC format and optically send it to the DAC and the rest of the system.

 

When in doubt spend money on speakers and save the music in a lossless format and don't use MP3.

[Ahoy Hoy]

In this modern day where motherboards are made with pretty decent onboard sound 99% of the time the answer is DAC is probably a waste of money. Best example if you got 250 pounds to buy some headphones and you buy a 100 pound DAC and 150 headphones. That would be a worse sounding system then just spending 250 on headphones.

The odd time you cheap out buy the crappiest motherboard know to man and got terrible audio well should of just got a better motherboard because a DAC+Bad motherboard is more expensive then a acceptable motherboard.