Is this wise?

[StrawberryShortCakes]

My PCS computer classmate asked our teacher a strange question today when he was talking about server being liquid cooled. 

Quote Razali : " Mr Qin when building a powerful work station is it wise to go super small like itx?" 

he was implying something like this :

NZXT H210

Ryzen R9 3950X

Asus ROG X570 I DTX motherboard 

Crucial Ballistix Elite 3600mhz cl16 32gb 

 

I thought as long the system fits there shouldn't be a problem as long adequately cooled? Plus with an itx build it could be portable if you used an tu150. Are there disadvantages Going small in a powerful build? 

 

[Jurrunio]

Powerful in performance but extremely limiting on holding expansions (including memory capacity). Also there's a limit on how big of a CPU you can get with mITX.

 

Basically unless downsizing or portability is a key factor, you shouldn't go small with a workstation.

[StrawberryShortCakes]

10 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

Powerful in performance but extremely limiting on holding expansions (including memory capacity). Also there's a limit on how big of a CPU you can get with mITX.

 

Basically unless downsizing or portability is a key factor, you shouldn't go small with a workstation.

So there is an disadvantage, so atx is still the best option because of the pcie slots? 

[Semper]

6 minutes ago, StrawberryShortCakes said:

So there is an disadvantage, so atx is still the best option because of the pcie slots? 

"best" is going to be subjective to what is needed.

If you need an easily portable system, a Laptop is best.
If you have very limited space, mITX is best.
If you need expansion, full size ATX is best.

There's no "one size fits all" for every situation. Each has their pros and cons, It's a game of compromises. You fulfill your needs, find what fits your wants best from that, and make a decision based on these factors.

[Moonzy]

4 minutes ago, StrawberryShortCakes said:

So there is an disadvantage, so atx is still the best option because of the pcie slots? 

well it depends, if you dont need the expansion ever, then whatever fits is fine.

again, assuming the cooling is adequate for all components including VRMs snd M.2 drives

[Kisai]

36 minutes ago, StrawberryShortCakes said:

My PCS computer classmate asked our teacher a strange question today when he was talking about server being liquid cooled. 

Quote Razali : " Mr Qin when building a powerful work station is it wise to go super small like itx?" 

he was implying something like this :

NZXT H210

Ryzen R9 3950X

Asus ROG X570 I DTX motherboard 

Crucial Ballistix Elite 3600mhz cl16 32gb 

 

I thought as long the system fits there shouldn't be a problem as long adequately cooled? Plus with an itx build it could be portable if you used an tu150. Are there disadvantages Going small in a powerful build? 

 

It would be suicide to put a high TDP CPU in tight boards. "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

[StrawberryShortCakes]

2 minutes ago, Kisai said:

It would be suicide to put a high TDP CPU in tight boards. "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

Why is that? 

Please explain thanks. 

[Kisai]

4 minutes ago, StrawberryShortCakes said:

Why is that? 

Please explain thanks. 

Because large chassis have large spaces for airflow reasons, where as ITX chasis are designed for at most 65w TDP. Assuming you could even find one with a PSU for it, the aftermarket heatsink and fans would not fit.

 

Take a look here for some small chassis.

 

[khaled2012]

1 hour ago, StrawberryShortCakes said:

I thought as long the system fits there shouldn't be a problem as long adequately cooled? Plus with an itx build it could be portable if you used an tu150. Are there disadvantages Going small in a powerful build? 

 

Let me explain. Mini itx motherboards have only 2 memory slots and no pci expansion card support (only graphics card) and you've to keep that in mind while planning your usage as well as upgrade facilities. Again there's a limited room for overclocking due to limited air flow. And heating of chipset, vrm and m.2 ssd are a concern in very small itx cases like dan case sfx but shouldn't be an issue in a fairly large itx chassis like nzxt H210. 

 

Personally if i had to bulid a ryzen 9 system inside the nzxt H210, I'd have selected the noctua NH-U12A for cpu cooling. Because the case has option only to mount single fan 120mm radiator and i think that's not enough to cool down the 3950x with watercooling. Without overclocking, the NH-U12A should keep the cpu under 80°C at full  load while with a single fan aio liquid cooler, it can go above 90°C. And I'd put 2 noctua NF fans for air flow in the chassis, one in the front as intake and one in the back as outlet. And I'd select a motherboard that comes with heatsink to sit over the m.2 ssd.

[StrawberryShortCakes]

23 minutes ago, khaled2012 said:

Let me explain. Mini itx motherboards have only 2 memory slots and no pci expansion card support (only graphics card) and you've to keep that in mind while planning your usage as well as upgrade facilities. Again there's a limited room for overclocking due to limited air flow. And heating of chipset, vrm and m.2 ssd are a concern in very small itx cases like dan case sfx but shouldn't be an issue in a fairly large itx chassis like nzxt H210. 

 

Personally if i had to bulid a ryzen 9 system inside the nzxt H210, I'd have selected the noctua NH-U12A for cpu cooling. Because the case has option only to mount single fan 120mm radiator and i think that's not enough to cool down the 3950x with watercooling. Without overclocking, the NH-U12A should keep the cpu under 80°C at full  load while with a single fan aio liquid cooler, it can go above 90°C. And I'd put 2 noctua NF fans for air flow in the chassis, one in the front as intake and one in the back as outlet. And I'd select a motherboard that comes with heatsink to sit over the m.2 ssd.

So if the itx case can fit something like scythe fuma 2 the cpu should be fine? 

[Jurrunio]

2 hours ago, StrawberryShortCakes said:

So there is an disadvantage, so atx is still the best option because of the pcie slots? 

Also USB ports, SATA ports, M.2 slots and more, you dont really see 10Gb LAN on mITX for example.

 

but they matter because that's by my definition of a workstation. If your idea of a workstation is just a number crunching powerhouse then sure, mITX doesnt matter to you (apart from memory capacity)

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

It would be suicide to put a high TDP CPU in tight boards. "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

It's fine because OP made this condition:

2 hours ago, StrawberryShortCakes said:

as long adequately cooled

 

[Kisai]

3 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

Also USB ports, SATA ports, M.2 slots and more, you dont really see 10Gb LAN on mITX for example.

 

but they matter because that's by my definition of a workstation. If your idea of a workstation is just a number crunching powerhouse then sure, mITX doesnt matter to you (apart from memory capacity)

 

It's fine because OP made this condition:

 

You'd be hard pressed to cool a 105w TDP CPU in a chassis only engineered for a 65w TDP CPU. "as long adequately cooled" is simply inapplicable, you can't.

 

The ITX platform is not designed for "portability". They were designed for fanless cooling. So you can have a silent PC. If that's not what you're doing, then the ITX platform is very much the wrong choice for a high end gaming system. Sure you can sometimes get away with a mid-performance desktop CPU and GPU, but if you're trying to stick a Ryzen 9 3950X and a 280w TDP GPU, that ain't happening one bit. As it is the OP neglected to indicate what GPU they were going to use since the Ryzen 9 would not have one.

[Jurrunio]

7 minutes ago, Kisai said:

You'd be hard pressed to cool a 105w TDP CPU in a chassis only engineered for a 65w TDP CPU. "as long adequately cooled" is simply inapplicable, you can't.

How did you get this impression? OP named two cases, the NZXT H210 and Lian Li TU150, both with 165mm CPU air cooler clearance to hold even big CPU air coolers (so as they dont protrude over the PCIe slot). H210 can even hold a 240mm AIO in the front. Even going past 105w easy with the right cooler..

 

10 minutes ago, Kisai said:

The ITX platform is not designed for "portability".

Even in this forums, I've seen people get mITX systems so they can travel with their high performance PC and all their data. Only used when settled down (with power outlet available) so no need for laptops. Of course saving space is the main thing even if it will spend its whole life standing on the same surface..

 

29 minutes ago, Kisai said:

They were designed for fanless cooling. So you can have a silent PC

 

Fanless mITX builds will even be rarer than people travelling with mITX systems that I can guarantee.

[Kisai]

20 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

 

Even in this forums, I've seen people get mITX systems so they can travel with their high performance PC and all their data. Only used when settled down (with power outlet available) so no need for laptops. Of course saving space is the main thing even if it will spend its whole life standing on the same surface..

 

You don't get a high performance mITX system, you at best get a compromise. That pc-tu150 has more in common with a mATX than an ITX. ITX systems are not 203mm (8") wide, they're 3.5" wide at most. If you can mount the GPU in like any other ATX, it's not an ITX it's a mATX chasis. If it has more than one expansion slot like the PC-tu150, it's not an mITX. The site literately says it's a mDTX.

 

 

 

The NZXT H210 will only fit an mITX board but it's still not an ITX design. ITX designs are designed for SFF's. I don't know what you'd call these ones that let you fit a full lenght GPU, but they're not what the ITX design is for.

 

https://www.in-win.com/en/computer-chassis/bq-series/APAC

 

Look at these things. A R9 is not going in there, no way no how. What you're suggesting are basically full width cases that take mITX MB's. Unfortunately that's exactly what the marketing uses.

[StrawberryShortCakes]

28 minutes ago, Kisai said:

You'd be hard pressed to cool a 105w TDP CPU in a chassis only engineered for a 65w TDP CPU. "as long adequately cooled" is simply inapplicable, you can't.

 

The ITX platform is not designed for "portability". They were designed for fanless cooling. So you can have a silent PC. If that's not what you're doing, then the ITX platform is very much the wrong choice for a high end gaming system. Sure you can sometimes get away with a mid-performance desktop CPU and GPU, but if you're trying to stick a Ryzen 9 3950X and a 280w TDP GPU, that ain't happening one bit. As it is the OP neglected to indicate what GPU they were going to use since the Ryzen 9 would not have one.

I said nth about gaming or high end gpu, Razali asked about the R9 3950X as an programmer's point of view high end cpu low end gpu something like a 5500/580/1660

[StrawberryShortCakes]

28 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

How did you get this impression? OP named two cases, the NZXT H210 and Lian Li TU150, both with 165mm CPU air cooler clearance to hold even big CPU air coolers (so as they dont protrude over the PCIe slot). H210 can even hold a 240mm AIO in the front. Even going past 105w easy with the right cooler..

 

Even in this forums, I've seen people get mITX systems so they can travel with their high performance PC and all their data. Only used when settled down (with power outlet available) so no need for laptops. Of course saving space is the main thing even if it will spend its whole life standing on the same surface..

 

 

Fanless mITX builds will even be rarer than people travelling with mITX systems that I can guarantee.

*Sits in a corner* like a good mitx pc should

[StrawberryShortCakes]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

You'd be hard pressed to cool a 105w TDP CPU in a chassis only engineered for a 65w TDP CPU. "as long adequately cooled" is simply inapplicable, you can't.

Erm, where on the NZXT 210 box says it's ment for 65w tdp cpu? 

That would mean all of gen 9/10 intel cpu ain't fit for mitx?  90% of their cpus hit 95-100 once we start rendering the 3d shit my class does. 

41 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

 

I've fit a Noctua D15s in an NZXT 210 b4 hard but doable. 

[Damascus]

13 hours ago, Kisai said:

You'd be hard pressed to cool a 105w TDP CPU in a chassis only engineered for a 65w TDP CPU. "as long adequately cooled" is simply inapplicable, you can't.

Wrong, very wrong.  There are several ways to do so

1. Mainstream chips (3950x, 10900k, 9900k etc.) which are functionally 100+ w parts (3950x taking up to 144w, for example) can be cooled well enough to reach all advertised stock and boost clocks using high end aircooling like the black ridge (47mm) or LP-53 (42mm with 14mm fan) or even tthe l9i/l9a (37mm) if one is willing to undervolt 
2. Using Desktop HEDT or xeon platforms (x99/x299/C621) along with high end vapor chamber coolers like the Dynatron T318 (43mm with fan)

Pics in case you want to try telling me my 6950x @80c all core load doesn't exist 

Spoiler

 

12 hours ago, Kisai said:

The NZXT H210 will only fit an mITX board but it's still not an ITX design. ITX designs are designed for SFF's. I don't know what you'd call these ones that let you fit a full lenght GPU, but they're not what the ITX design is for.

Dancase?  Perhaps a flatpack like the sliger?  These are both commonly accepted as "ITX" form factor, are sub 10L and use only 2 PCIe slots, enough for a single GPU

 

13 hours ago, Kisai said:

The ITX platform is not designed for "portability". They were designed for fanless cooling. So you can have a silent PC. If that's not what you're doing, then the ITX platform is very much the wrong choice for a high end gaming system. Sure you can sometimes get away with a mid-performance desktop CPU and GPU, but if you're trying to stick a Ryzen 9 3950X and a 280w TDP GPU, that ain't happening one bit. As it is the OP neglected to indicate what GPU they were going to use since the Ryzen 9 would not have one.

If we're sticking to your rigid definition of ITX wherein one cannot go past 180mm, there are still option for high performance gaming through gigabyte and MSI mini ITX 1070, 1080, 2060 and 2070 GPUs.  Not 2080 ti levels of performance, but not an APU trash as implied here.  It would be rather easy to run a 3950x + 2070S in the S4M for example, which would be a 5L case as the upper limits of a high end gaming PC

 

Feel free to elaborate on any point, I'm quite curious as to your definition of what a true ITX case would be, for example what the L/W/H maximum dimensions would entail and what a max volume could be.  ATX cases aren't a mobo tray and nothing else after all, so you shouldn't demand ITX be any different

[StrawberryShortCakes]

7 minutes ago, Damascus said:

Wrong, very wrong.  There are several ways to do so

1. Mainstream chips (3950x, 10900k, 9900k etc.) which are functionally 100+ w parts (3950x taking up to 144w, for example) can be cooled well enough to reach all advertised stock and boost clocks using high end aircooling like the black ridge (47mm) or LP-53 (42mm with 14mm fan) or even tthe l9i/l9a (37mm) if one is willing to undervolt 
2. Using Desktop HEDT or xeon platforms (x99/x299/C621) along with high end vapor chamber coolers like the Dynatron T318 (43mm with fan)

Pics in case you want to try telling me my 6950x @80c all core load doesn't exist 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Dancase?  Perhaps a flatpack like the sliger?  These are both commonly accepted as "ITX" form factor, are sub 10L and use only 2 PCIe slots, enough for a single GPU

 

If we're sticking to your rigid definition of ITX wherein one cannot go past 180mm, there are still option for high performance gaming through gigabyte and MSI mini ITX 1070, 1080, 2060 and 2070 GPUs.  Not 2080 ti levels of performance, but not an APU trash as implied here.  It would be rather easy to run a 3950x + 2070S in the S4M for example, which would be a 5L case as the upper limits of a high end gaming PC

 

Feel free to elaborate on any point, I'm quite curious as to your definition of what a true ITX case would be, for example what the L/W/H maximum dimensions would entail and what a max volume could be.  ATX cases aren't a mobo tray and nothing else after all, so you shouldn't demand ITX be any different

Even I'm not that daring to put a r9 3950X in a Dan case. My hero

[Damascus]

12 hours ago, StrawberryShortCakes said:

Even I'm not that daring to put a r9 3950X in a Dan case. My hero

 I don't have the casholio for a 3950x, but it's actually quite manageable.  I know a few guys running them in S4ms even, and my 6950x lived in a DSE breathe (Vertical dancase) for ages.  to run a mainstream chip like the 3950x or 10-000k you'll mainly want to get a blackridge, noctua a12x14 and some VLP RAM.  Then, you can even OC a little bit with careful power tuning, or run it stock to get that sweet, sweet silence 

[Kisai]

2 minutes ago, Damascus said:

Feel free to elaborate on any point, I'm quite curios as to your definition of what a true ITX case would be, for example what the L/W/H maximum dimensions would entail and what a max volume could be.  ATX cases aren't a mobo tray and nothing else after all, so you shouldn't demand ITX be any different

Go back to my first comment in the thread.

Quote

It would be suicide to put a high TDP CPU in tight boards. "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

 

You can stick a Porsche engine in a Honda Civic, that doesn't mean you have a sports car. My point, lest y'all forget it, is that you're making design compromises, and tight boards and chassis require a lot more planning than simply going "I'm gonna stick a massive CPU and GPU in and call it done", cause I assure you, something isn't going to last very long.

 

This is what originated the ITX layout:

https://www.viatech.com/en/products/boards/mini-itx/

17cm x 17cm (6.69") 

 

Take a very close look at the MB.

The CPU is soldered to the board, and the PCIe slot is only a 4x. Takes 2 SODIMM's. By all accounts this was designed solely to for SFF systems that are the exact same size of the board.

 

This is the kind of ITX chassis associated with this kind of board that could take a large GPU:

https://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=607&area=en

 

Take note of the dimensions:

380mm (W) x 87mm (H) x 370mm (D), 12 liters
14.96" (W) x 3.43" (H) x 14.57" (D), 12 liters

 

However I'd still argue this is just making the system twice as big as intended for ITX. An ITX chassis would have been designed to use a low-profile expansion card, if it has any at all. 

 

Anyway, my point because nitpick nonsense has creeped into the thread, is that what people are calling mITX chassis are really full size chassis, and if you have a full size chassis, you should just get a full size motherboard, with all the proper cooling. There can not be an appreciable difference in weight if all you are using are SSD's.

 

 

[StrawberryShortCakes]

1 minute ago, Damascus said:

 I don't have the casholio for a 3950x, but it's actually quite manageable.  I know a few guys running them in S4ms even, and my 6950x lived in a DSE breathe (Vertical dancase) for ages.  to run a mainstream chip like the 3950x or 10-000k you'll mainly want to get a blackridge, noctua a12x14 and some VLP RAM.  Then, you can even OC a little bit with careful power tuning, or run it stock to get that sweet, sweet silence 

Overclocked? God damn you are a hero. If I had a 3950x in a Dan case I'd be running stock settings, and be blowing the air conditioner at 16 degrees all day at it. 

[amckern]

I have a 9900 in a Fractal Design: Node 202 and its only being cooled by this: https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/product/B009VCAJ7W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Damascus]

12 hours ago, Kisai said:

You can stick a Porsche engine in a Honda Civic, that doesn't mean you have a sports car. My point, lest y'all forget it, is that you're making design compromises, and tight boards and chassis require a lot more planning than simply going "I'm gonna stick a massive CPU and GPU in and call it done", cause I assure you, something isn't going to last very long.

 

I've... I've been doing this for years.  It's easy if you have a lot of money and still doable if you don't. 

 

Is this ITX?   If it isn't, no case ever made obeyed ATX standards.

[Jurrunio]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

The NZXT H210 will only fit an mITX board but it's still not an ITX design.

End of story, you're on your own with your standard of mITX.