Apparently the new intel nuc can run inside a standard PC

[mbntr]

As a concept that's really cool, you can have a secondary streaming pc inside your pc or you caould just have it as a linux box...

the Nuc compute element could be added like a graphics card (you will need an additional EPS 12v connector, BUT there are PCIe power to EPS so that's not that big of a deal.

The concept is cool but at the price it isn't very practical

 

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3512825/intels-ghost-canyon-nuc-and-compute-element-10-questions-and-intriguing-facts.html

 

 

[Sauron]

If it's not able to communicate with the motherboard it's completely pointless... just because you can physically mount it inside another computer doesn't make it part of that computer. I mean, you can also run a raspberry pi inside a standard PC for that matter.

[mbntr]

2 minutes ago, Sauron said:

If it's not able to communicate with the motherboard it's completely pointless... just because you can physically mount it inside another computer doesn't make it part of that computer. I mean, you can also run a raspberry pi inside a standard PC for that matter.

well that is true, I don't know yet if it could use the GPU inside your pc, but I don't think it will be possible.

This could be a decent option for those who would buy a dual motherboard system

[Sauron]

1 minute ago, mbntr said:

I don't know yet if it could use the GPU inside your pc

The article says it can't (and I don't see how it could).

2 minutes ago, mbntr said:

This could be a decent option for those who would buy a dual motherboard system

A dual motherboard system is already such a niche thing that I don't think it would be a problem for them to just buy a case that supports two normal motherboards.

[mbntr]

1 minute ago, Sauron said:

The article says it can't (and I don't see how it could).

A dual motherboard system is already such a niche thing that I don't think it would be a problem for them to just buy a case that supports two normal motherboards.

hey the idea is cool, extremely impractical (and expensive) but it's interesting

[porina]

So if I understand it correctly, as neither the Intel page nor the PC World article explain it really well, the card is the "brains" part of the Ghost Canyon NUC. However it could still be used in a regular desktop although without the PCIe connectivity. It will come down to price and some other details but I think personal CPU farms could be a potential application for this. In a similar way some people buy a ton of GPUs to get folding or similar work done, there are use cases where only a CPU will do. This could be interesting to increase density providing the cost is kept in check. 

[AlexGoesHigh]

2 hours ago, VegetableStu said:

snip

Here, STH talked about this in their review, it was codenamed Beverly Cove and became a product though only for Facebook open compute platform. it seems it never reached a standard form for common servers and IT infrastructure 

 

https://www.servethehome.com/intel-nuc9vxqnx-nuc-review-xeon-quartz-canyon/2/

 

[RejZoR]

4 hours ago, Sauron said:

If it's not able to communicate with the motherboard it's completely pointless... just because you can physically mount it inside another computer doesn't make it part of that computer. I mean, you can also run a raspberry pi inside a standard PC for that matter.

You can stick PlayStation 2 inside PC and call it a "console". XD

[Master Disaster]

I thought the rise of extreme core counts and virtualisation in the server space was exactly to prevent the need for this kind of thing. It seems wildly inefficient to have 8 mini PCs, all requiring separate power, running inside one master PC when you can just run one master PC and split it into 8 virtual machines.

 

I see no upside to this approach over virtualisation?

[porina]

11 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

I thought the rise of extreme core counts and virtualisation in the server space was exactly to prevent the need for this kind of thing. It seems wildly inefficient to have 8 mini PCs, all requiring separate power, running inside one master PC when you can just run one master PC and split it into 8 virtual machines.

 

I see no upside to this approach over virtualisation?

I'd agree this doesn't make sense in the server realm, but I think it could have application in some more personal level cases. The Xeon models I'd guess were more for workstation class uses than server.

 

I'd admit my use case is unconventional, but currently I have a two monitor setup at home like many people do, but in my case they're driven by different systems. I can still control both from one keyboard/mouse seamlessly. Why did I end up going this route? Isolation. What happens on one system does not affect what happens on the other. Virtualisation wouldn't offer that level of isolation and I'd argue is a more complex and limiting setup.

 

Also multiple smaller systems will help against some types of resource constraint. I'm seeing reports that in a Prime95 like compute uses the 32 core Zen 2 CPUs are performing far below expectations, as low as Zen 1 performance which sucks. Without owning one to diagnose myself, I already know it has a very poor CPU to ram bandwidth ratio, which can't be mitigated by the fragmented L3 cache model chosen. I'm speculating it is something related to either the limited bandwidth of infinity fabric, if not the ram itself. I haven't seen similar reports on the 16 core Zen 2 parts which should scale similarly, so that is making me lean slightly towards the internal bandwidth more. Anyway, lower core count monolithic CPUs each with their own memory provides a better balance in this type of use case.

[Master Disaster]

1 hour ago, porina said:

I'd agree this doesn't make sense in the server realm, but I think it could have application in some more personal level cases. The Xeon models I'd guess were more for workstation class uses than server.

 

I'd admit my use case is unconventional, but currently I have a two monitor setup at home like many people do, but in my case they're driven by different systems. I can still control both from one keyboard/mouse seamlessly. Why did I end up going this route? Isolation. What happens on one system does not affect what happens on the other. Virtualisation wouldn't offer that level of isolation and I'd argue is a more complex and limiting setup.

 

Also multiple smaller systems will help against some types of resource constraint. I'm seeing reports that in a Prime95 like compute uses the 32 core Zen 2 CPUs are performing far below expectations, as low as Zen 1 performance which sucks. Without owning one to diagnose myself, I already know it has a very poor CPU to ram bandwidth ratio, which can't be mitigated by the fragmented L3 cache model chosen. I'm speculating it is something related to either the limited bandwidth of infinity fabric, if not the ram itself. I haven't seen similar reports on the 16 core Zen 2 parts which should scale similarly, so that is making me lean slightly towards the internal bandwidth more. Anyway, lower core count monolithic CPUs each with their own memory provides a better balance in this type of use case.

Hasn't that been identified as a Windows CPU scheduling bug or am I confusing it with another issue? I thought it was found that running the same test on an identical system under Linux does not yield the same result as it does under Windows.

[porina]

48 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Hasn't that been identified as a Windows CPU scheduling bug or am I confusing it with another issue? I thought it was found that running the same test on an identical system under Linux does not yield the same result as it does under Windows.

That is the belief of those with the system but the numbers still seem lower than I'd expect from those CPUs. There's something more going on there that I can't test without getting such a system myself.

[TechyBen]

5 hours ago, VegetableStu said:

wasn't expecting this, but yeah here's a roundup:

 

 

PCWorld: https://www.pcworld.com/article/3538128/intel-ghost-canyon-nuc9i9qnx-nuc-9-extreme-review.html

 

of note: the baseboard has m.2 and PCIe x4 sockets, so the PCIe connection will operate between x16x0x0 and x8x4x4 modes

 

 

also ServeTheHome and Level1Techs have a Xeon counterpart that's codenamed Quartz Canyon o_o

Board states "PCIe x16" Linus "must be PCIe 8x"

Though I agree, most likely running in8x mode, I do wonder if they have done some sort of mux/detection so it runs in 16x if no other device populating it.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

7 hours ago, porina said:

So if I understand it correctly, as neither the Intel page nor the PC World article explain it really well, the card is the "brains" part of the Ghost Canyon NUC. However it could still be used in a regular desktop although without the PCIe connectivity. It will come down to price and some other details but I think personal CPU farms could be a potential application for this. In a similar way some people buy a ton of GPUs to get folding or similar work done, there are use cases where only a CPU will do. This could be interesting to increase density providing the cost is kept in check. 

But isn't that covered with Xeon Phi? Why would one need all the added I/O these have compared to those cards? 

[porina]

Just now, SpaceGhostC2C said:

But isn't that covered with Xeon Phi? Why would one need all the added I/O these have compared to those cards? 

Phi is EOL so not something to use going forward. Even if it was still going on, it really needs software optimised for its strengths, whereas more regular CPUs are more versatile. 

[Sauron]

8 hours ago, porina said:

So if I understand it correctly, as neither the Intel page nor the PC World article explain it really well, the card is the "brains" part of the Ghost Canyon NUC. However it could still be used in a regular desktop although without the PCIe connectivity. It will come down to price and some other details but I think personal CPU farms could be a potential application for this. In a similar way some people buy a ton of GPUs to get folding or similar work done, there are use cases where only a CPU will do. This could be interesting to increase density providing the cost is kept in check. 

I feel like the critical "flaw" here is that this doesn't need to be in another motherboard's PCIE slot to work. You can make a farm with them, you just don't need a "normal" computer as a base to do it.

[williamcll]

Interestingly, some Intel Compute cards work in the same manner as well. The QNAP Mustang 200 for example carries an i7-7567U, 2 SODIMMS, a M.2 Port with Intel 600p, 8GB of eMMC and a 10Gbps NIC on a Graphics card form factor.

Source: https://www.qnap.com/en/product/mustang-200/specs/hardware

[TechyBen]

Yeah, this thing totally is not suppose to go "in" a PC. It can just use a backplane that supplies the power.

 

You could put it in a PC case/motherboard slot to save on the cost of buying a custom case + PSU. As a cheapo upgrade *if* they release a celeron version with no i/o and for $30... but anything else is cheaper to just buy it with the case + PSU!!!

 

It's the problem of economies of return. Very very few use cases where this is an actual cost effective "upgrade" if fitting in side a PC, vs fitting it externally and just throwing the old PC out vs upgrading the old PC.

 

Though, I'd love to see the old slot driven motherboards come back, so all PCs would be slot in/out upgrades!

[Master Disaster]

7 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

Yeah, this thing totally is not suppose to go "in" a PC. It can just use a backplane that supplies the power.

 

You could put it in a PC case/motherboard slot to save on the cost of buying a custom case + PSU. As a cheapo upgrade *if* they release a celeron version with no i/o and for $30... but anything else is cheaper to just buy it with the case + PSU!!!

 

It's the problem of economies of return. Very very few use cases where this is an actual cost effective "upgrade" if fitting in side a PC, vs fitting it externally and just throwing the old PC out vs upgrading the old PC.

 

Though, I'd love to see the old slot driven motherboards come back, so all PCs would be slot in/out upgrades!

Why am I getting flashbacks to riser cards for CPUs & ISA slots. Anyone remember the Pentium IIs that came on mini riser cards? Those things were a nightmare to get out of the slots.

[Master Disaster]

30 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I feel like the critical "flaw" here is that this doesn't need to be in another motherboard's PCIE slot to work. You can make a farm with them, you just don't need a "normal" computer as a base to do it.

But then you need x monitors, x mice & x keyboards to run everything (or the worlds most ballin KVM Switch).

[Sauron]

1 minute ago, Master Disaster said:

But then you need x monitors, x mice & x keyboards to run everything (or the worlds most ballin KVM Switch).

You still do since the "main" motherboard wouldn't be able to communicate with the NUC anyway. Or more sensibly you can use remote control software over the network.

[TechyBen]

4 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Why am I getting flashbacks to riser cards for CPUs & ISA slots. Anyone remember the Pentium IIs that came on mini riser cards? Those things were a nightmare to get out of the slots.

Could not find a photo, but Computerphile had a old mainframe where the entire thing slotted into a massive backplate that had at least 4 full length connectors. So you could fit new slots of motherboards/ram (the ram was the size of the motherboard or some back then!) and other cards into it. It was massive!

[JOTA_Satellite]

On 4/16/2020 at 6:54 PM, mbntr said:

As a concept that's really cool, you can have a secondary streaming pc inside your pc or you caould just have it as a linux box...

the Nuc compute element could be added like a graphics card (you will need an additional EPS 12v connector, BUT there are PCIe power to EPS so that's not that big of a deal.

The concept is cool but at the price it isn't very practical

 

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3512825/intels-ghost-canyon-nuc-and-compute-element-10-questions-and-intriguing-facts.html

 

 

I would love for this to be true and proven! To eliminate needing two boxes, or bulky ugly dual system cases would be a god send for me. I would install a compute element inside my existing Windows PC and run my Linux system on it independantly. No more sluggish vms, no more extra cases. Think of the leg room I could have xD

[Letgomyleghoe]

On 4/16/2020 at 4:18 AM, RejZoR said:

You can stick PlayStation 2 inside PC

MMM IDEAS...

 

maybe my old Xbox 360 has a use after all!