The end of lightning is nigh, possibly.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

They probably don't support ARC or 4K simply because the cable didn't connect the necessary pins (ARC and HEC use pin 14, which was effectively optional to connect, as it was marked as "reserved", in the HDMI spec before 1.4) or the cabling was such that it was good up to whatever the maximum data transmission was at the time and anything higher wouldn't work. Pretty sure if you found a well-built, fully connected HDMI cable built before the 1.4 spec, it'd work with 1.4 and beyond.

 

There's nothing in an HDMI cable that would actively tie to an HDMI spec number.

I am aware of that, but it still means a lot of useless cables out there. Same goes for data connections, 8K etc. There will be a lot of HDMI cables in landfill simply because they do not fully support ever changing standards. 

13 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

USB A to USB C is still a valid combination. And even then, there's converters.

Which makes the "Green" credentials of the proposed legislation pointless if we will need adaptors for our cables simply to use them in most places. USB-C is still not found on the majority of outlets.

[Mira Yurizaki]

11 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

I am aware of that, but it still means a lot of useless cables out there. Same goes for data connections, 8K etc. There will be a lot of HDMI cables in landfill simply because they do not fully support ever changing standards. 

That's assuming most of the market even cares about upgrading to 8K or whatever. How much of the market even has say a UHD Blu-Ray player or buys UHD Blu-Rays? Last I checked, the market for physical media period has been steadily dropping and since most TVs built these days are smart TVs, the need for having a cable for a video carrier is becoming less important. The only device I have that's outputs to 4K also came with its own cable, and it's pretty flimsy looking compared to some other ones I've purchased.

 

Quote

Which makes the "Green" credentials of the proposed legislation pointless if we will need adaptors for our cables simply to use them in most places. USB-C is still not found on the majority of outlets.

Buying an adapter is better than buying a new cable outright. And from what I gather, a lot of USB-C devices still ship with a USB-A to USB-C cable. I've yet to purchase a USB-C device that came with a USB-C to USB-C cable.

[dalekphalm]

15 hours ago, Phill104 said:

Lightning. It just seems that Apple have such a random mix of what connector comes on the source end.

I'd assume they included a Lightning to USB-C adapter to allow connection to the newer Macbooks? *shrugs*

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

That's assuming most of the market even cares about upgrading to 8K or whatever. How much of the market even has say a UHD Blu-Ray player or buys UHD Blu-Rays? Last I checked, the market for physical media period has been steadily dropping and since most TVs built these days are smart TVs, the need for having a cable for a video carrier is becoming less important. The only device I have that's outputs to 4K also came with its own cable, and it's pretty flimsy looking compared to some other ones I've purchased.

 

The industry will drive 8K. People will always want the “Best” available simply because they can. Are 4K gaming laptops

the best choice? Arguably not but plenty make them and plenty buy them. 8K will be foisted upon us in the not too distant future.

 

25 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

Buying an adapter is better than buying a new cable outright. And from what I gather, a lot of USB-C devices still ship with a USB-A to USB-C cable. I've yet to purchase a USB-C device that came with a USB-C to USB-C cable.

Most people tend to not buy adapters but new cables instead. 
 

If shipping a device with two types of cable is needed that is a backward step.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

I'd assume they included a Lightning to USB-C adapter to allow connection to the newer Macbooks? *shrugs*

I assumed that, or to connect possibly to an iPad Pro but for what reason I am not sure. It is hardly a device that needs high power to charge. Personally I would prefer   The option if no cable for £10 less or a choice of cable. Same goes for all devices where cables may end up in a drawer from all companies.

[Mira Yurizaki]

7 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

The industry will drive 8K. People will always want the “Best” available simply because they can. Are 4K gaming laptops the best choice? Arguably not but plenty make them and plenty buy them. 8K will be foisted upon us in the not too distant future.

Sure, but just because 8K TVs in the future will be affordable doesn't mean people will buy additional HDMI cables. Most of the market has shifted towards streaming services for their content. Plus the average person likely isn't going to demand that 8K be a thing and heck I don't even think the average person really cares about their content being in 4K. 1080p for most people is fine.

 

Either way, the point is that HDMI cables have nothing in them except for build quality that ties them down to a specific version. You don't necessarily have to buy a new set of cables because your devices are a new version and you bought the cables you currently have for the old version.

 

7 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

If shipping a device with two types of cable is needed that is a backward step.

On further inspection, the USB-PD specification has an extension that allows USB-A connectors to be compatible with USB-PD, making the need for having two different types of cables a moot point.

 

Besides that I don't see a need to get rid of USB-A. It's a serviceable connector and is simpler, so it likely uses less resources overall to make.

14 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

I assumed that, or to connect possibly to an iPad Pro but for what reason I am not sure. It is hardly a device that needs high power to charge. Personally I would prefer   The option if no cable for £10 less or a choice of cable. Same goes for all devices where cables may end up in a drawer from all companies.

Which would be a logistical headache that may end up costing more time and energy than we're trying to save.

 

Besides that, I tend to keep the cable with the device for the life of the device. So when I want sell the device (if I don't outright toss it), I throw in the cable it came with with it. And from what I gather, people tend to burn through cables faster than they do devices.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

Sure, but just because 8K TVs in the future will be affordable doesn't mean people will buy additional HDMI cables. Most of the market has shifted towards streaming services for their content. Plus the average person likely isn't going to demand that 8K be a thing and heck I don't even think the average person really cares about their content being in 4K. 1080p for most people is fine.

 

Either way, the point is that HDMI cables have nothing in them except for build quality that ties them down to a specific version. You don't necessarily have to buy a new set of cables because your devices are a new version and you bought the cables you currently have for the old version.

 

On further inspection, the USB-PD specification has an extension that allows USB-A connectors to be compatible with USB-PD, making the need for having two different types of cables a moot point.

 

Besides that I don't see a need to get rid of USB-A. It's a serviceable connector and is simpler, so it likely uses less resources overall to make.

Which would be a logistical headache that may end up costing more time and energy than we're trying to save.

 

Besides that, I tend to keep the cable with the device for the life of the device. So when I want sell the device (if I don't outright toss it), I throw in the cable it came with with it. And from what I gather, people tend to burn through cables faster than they do devices.

People said the same about 1080p, about 4K. While streaming is the future there is still an ever growing want for decent sound systems to be attached. People will still use Sky, Or Virgin etc and those too will be attached.

 

As for a logistical nightmare, nope.  All those shops already stock these cables. I doubt that most people will choose to buy a new cable with every new device so the increase will be minimal. 
 

Marketing has made us expect a lot of things and a cable is one of them. People will feel aggrieved when they are not getting something they have come to expect. However we will all get used to it. Despite it not being efficient everything will probably be wirelessly charged anyway in a few years. Will we all expect a wireless charger in the box? I certainly do not think that will happen, it hasn’t so far.

 

The point is we will all have to change. We need to be far less wasteful and stop throwing things away. That has to start at the manufacturers end. We need less cables going to waste, less charge bricks sat in drawers and less packaging. Legislation against connector a or connector b will not do that, it will slow down change if things are not well thought out.

[pas008]

37 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

People said the same about 1080p, about 4K. While streaming is the future there is still an ever growing want for decent sound systems to be attached. People will still use Sky, Or Virgin and those too will be attached.

 

As for a logistical nightmare, nope.  All those shops already stock these cables. I doubt that most people will choose to buy a new cable with every new device so the increase will be minimal. 

thats the nature of the tech industry, standards change but least they make it backwards compatible for most part

 

hdmi is a standard

lightning is proprietary

2 different worlds so I dont understand your argument here

 

imagine if amd, intel or nvidia made proprietary cables for hooking up a damn monitor? or power cables inside?

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, pas008 said:

thats the nature of the tech industry, standards change but least they make it backwards compatible for most part

 

hdmi is a standard

lightning is proprietary

2 different worlds so I dont understand your argument here

 

imagine if amd, intel or nvidia made proprietary cables for hooking up a damn monitor? or power cables inside?

 

 

I’m not making the argument, someone else is. You would need to read through the whole thread to understand that.

[pas008]

7 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

I’m not making the argument, someone else is. You would need to read through the whole thread to understand that.

i did they said hdmi was a godsend

then you said nightmare because as a standard changes dvi/hdmi/dp  you expect more, but least it still had a function not to your wants but still not a waste

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, pas008 said:

i did they said hdmi was a godsend

then you said nightmare because as a standard changes dvi/hdmi/dp  you expect more, but least it still had a function not to your wants but still not a waste

I do not expect more and never said that. My point that it was a fixed standard  ut it evolved. It created a lot of waste for me. Legislation would not have changed that which is the point of the whole thread.

 

I actually have a bit of exposure from a large retailer point of view on AV cabling such as HDMI because as part of my job I had to visit purchasing departments and testing departments. I saw some of the deliberate choices made and they were often to get more sales with not a though for the consumer or for being green. The average cost for even the top cables was under £3 but they sold for over £100. There was also deliberate choices made, for instance to use less cores for a supposedly higher quality signal at the expense of certain features, such as ARC or  data. It made me want to scream at times. You can still go into certain large electronics retailers and buy a range of HDMI cables offering different feature sets, yet they all conform to certain set standards. This is what has resulted in a lot of waste. And setting standards actually increased that.

[pas008]

1 minute ago, Phill104 said:

I do not expect more and never said that. My point that it was a fixed standard  ut it evolved. It created a lot of waste for me. Legislation would not have changed that which is the point of the whole thread.

 

I actually have a bit of exposure from a large retailer point of view on AV cabling such as HDMI because as part of my job I had to visit purchasing departments and testing departments. I saw some of the deliberate choices made and they were often to get more sales with not a though for the consumer or for being green. The average cost for even the top cables was under £3 but they sold for over £100. There was also deliberate choices made, for instance to use less cores for a supposedly higher quality signal at the expense of certain features, such as ARC or  data. It made me want to scream at times. You can still go into certain large electronics retailers and buy a range of HDMI cables offering different feature sets, yet they all conform to certain set standards. This is what has resulted in a lot of waste. And setting standards actually increased that.

waste how? can they still be used with many other devices?

 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, pas008 said:

waste how? can they still be used with many other devices?

 

Reality kicks in. You would be amazed just how many cables that could be used for other things get dumped or left languishing in a drawer or shed there are.  One large monitor company I know of still ships a DVI cable and a mini DP to DP cable in the box as well as an HDMI. Sadly no DP to DP which is what most people would end up using on a desktop Pc.

[TechyBen]

8 hours ago, Phill104 said:

Why not? Target end or source end, if target goes USB-C people will expect the full speed charging of USB-C, not USB2. With Apple and others already supplying cables that are USB-C on the charger end there is already a need to have a second cable or adaptor for the car, or for on a flight, in a restaurant etc.

USB-2 with USB C compatibility. Those sockets exist, and in no way require USB-C shaped cables/sockets.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, TechyBen said:

USB-2 with USB C compatibility. Those sockets exist, and in no way require USB-C shaped cables/sockets.

How does that help when an item is shipped with a USB-C end?

 

I think we are really going off topic now. I feel this thread is going nowhere.

[Blademaster91]

20 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

I get the frustration and your issue makes perfect sense.  But I guess that's one of the prices we are going to have to pay if we want to reduce e-waste.  Unfortunately we are all part of a bigger system, the device companies want to maximize profit, the consumer wants to spend less, the government should be doing something more altruistic and well founded.  

 

Ensuring that consumers don't wear the brunt of any change is something government should be doing, although if we had better more transparent systems in place to rate products for this type of thing,  the market would then self regulate to a higher degree.

 

 

I wouldn't mind that much having to put an extra $10 into buying the cable, but I think the non-replaceable batteries in phones or tablets, or wireless headphones is much more wasteful than an included charger or cable. I don't think government regulation is the best solution but in this case it may be needed as lightning adapters are wasteful, although I would expect Apple to make a completely wireless phone before switching to a standard USB-C port.

18 hours ago, Phill104 said:

So for you if you spent a grand on a printer it should come with a cable? Interesting how the more expensive the item the more your expectations are as to what comes with it. 
 

As for the chargers themselves, that is also something the EU have regulations on but for safety reasons. That I can understand. However the legislation is full of loopholes. So in much of Europe there are huge problems with unsafe devices being sold. There are many chargers setting fire to things or melting, plenty with poor mains isolation resulting in shocks. Some of the worst are coloured iPhone style copies where the back is falling off. This has resulted in a number of shocks and burns in the last few years. At least when phone manufacturers are supplying chargers they should be of decent quality. If they are removed people will buy these super cheap crappy alternatives causing other problems. It always seems that one bit of well intended regulation often leads to other problems.

I was thinking more of the usual cheap inkjet printer cuz you get ripped off with the ink anyway, but with a phone I'd expect the charger to be included because most high end phones support fast charging.   I agree with the concern of not including a charger with the phone, I've wondered how people can afford iPhones yet buy the cheapest knock off charger.  Although the 5w charger Apple includes might just end up a drawer or thrown away because people will expect fast charging.

[TechyBen]

21 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

How does that help when an item is shipped with a USB-C end?

 

I think we are really going off topic now. I feel this thread is going nowhere.

Both ends? No, it's USB c one end, usb the other.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

Both ends? No, it's USB c one end, usb the other.

On the source end, such as supplied with AirPods pro. 

[TechyBen]

1 minute ago, Phill104 said:

On the source end, such as supplied with AirPods pro. 

Source? Where/who is saying source end? One side usb 3.0. One side usb. For the Airpods Pro [2/3/4/5/6] if this gets passed. OR usb 4.0 or usb 5.0... but an agreed standard (even the charging/internals could be different, so Apple could have lightning functionality, as long as it's also usb compatible). So really, it smacks the "but sTandRds b4D!!" arguments.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

Source? Where/who is saying source end? One side usb 3.0. One side usb. For the Airpods Pro [2/3/4/5/6] if this gets passed. OR usb 4.0 or usb 5.0... but an agreed standard (even the charging/internals could be different, so Apple could have lightning functionality, as long as it's also usb compatible). So really, it smacks the "but sTandRds b4D!!" arguments.

I said source, as in the source end of the current USB cable supplied with AirPods Pro, one end USB-C the other lightning as it is today. I think you are loosing me completely now. As this thread has gone miles off key I am stepping away.

[pas008]

29 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

Reality kicks in. You would be amazed just how many cables that could be used for other things get dumped or left languishing in a drawer or shed there are.  One large monitor company I know of still ships a DVI cable and a mini DP to DP cable in the box as well as an HDMI. Sadly no DP to DP which is what most people would end up using on a desktop Pc.

but the point is they can be reused and still viable for other things if needed hence why we hold on to them

 

 

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

I said source, as in the source end of the current USB cable supplied with AirPods Pro, one end USB-C the other lightning as it is today. I think you are loosing me completely now. As this thread has gone miles off key I am stepping away.

And the moment I said that a new report pops up on BBC news - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51208912

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, pas008 said:

but the point is they can be reused and still viable for other things if needed hence why we hold on to them

 

 

Because we hold onto tons of junk just in case, it is our nature. 500,000 tons of e waste in the UK alone per year goes into landfill and it is believed that is a tiny part of the mountain building in UK homes every year.

[dalekphalm]

1 hour ago, Phill104 said:

Because we hold onto tons of junk just in case, it is our nature. 500,000 tons of e waste in the UK alone per year goes into landfill and it is believed that is a tiny part of the mountain building in UK homes every year.

I can attest to the literal mountain of extra cables I have stuffed into a massive box inside a closet. HDMI cables, USB Cables, Power Cables, Ethernet Cables, VGA Cables - all kinds of things. Eventually I need to go through and organize the damn thing.

 

Though I tend to bring my electronics waste directly to an e-waste facility, most people would just toss those cables into the garbage if they decided to get rid of them.

[TechyBen]

15 hours ago, Phill104 said:

I said source, as in the source end of the current USB cable supplied with AirPods Pro, one end USB-C the other lightning as it is today. I think you are loosing me completely now. As this thread has gone miles off key I am stepping away.

You are the one saying the source end is the problem... you took it off topic, why blame me? XD