social media Giants being pressured to curb medical misinformation

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

I mean the alternative would be to take away the kid and forcibly vaccinate the kid against the wishes of the parents.

That might work.

 

The price of living in a community means you have to accept there are things you can't have.  For the health of the community (herd immunity) the child must be vaccinated, it's not just about the child, but about everyone else too.   If the parents want the security and safety of the community then they have to tow the community line.

 

This is why free speech is a charged debate.  Not everyone gets their way and not everone's ideals can be met.

 

 

[Stefan Payne]

57 minutes ago, mr moose said:

charge people with fraud 

Fraud is something that is determined in a Court of law.

This is not determined in a Court of Law, not even a real Court.

 

So what's your point?
You want to arbitary censor people who's oppionion you don't like or find acceptable.

But that is the consequence of freedom. You are free to do bad shit.

Even if you don't like it....

Still, you are going at it backwards. The Problem is the source...

[Arika]

4 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

-a big snip-

not replying directly to what you've posted since i have no further questions regarding that.

 

But with what you've said in the above what are your thoughts on dangerous drivers? weaving in and out of traffic, for example this idiot

 

putting other peoples lives in danger (just like anti-vaxxers do) clearly no regard for the safty of others (just like anti-vaxxers), confidence in their ability to know how to control things (just like anti-vaxxers). this guy would absolutely be pulled over and arrested if he was caught, but would that not be censoring him in a way? he's free to drive like an asshole and put people in danger, but it's only if his actions directly kill someone that he should be punished?

[mr moose]

Just now, Stefan Payne said:

Fraud is something that is determined in a Court of law.

This is not determined in a Court of Law, not even a real Court.

Yet.

 

Just now, Stefan Payne said:

So what's your point?
You want to arbitary censor people who's oppionion you don't like or find acceptable.

 

There is no "arbitrary" or "opinion" in this, if you say vaccines are dangerous and people shouldn't get them then you are wrong and the post should be deleted.

 

Just now, Stefan Payne said:

But that is the consequence of freedom. You are free to do bad shit.

Even if you don't like it....

And that is the problem, people shouldn't be free to do bad shit, especially when it is at best poor advice with no benefit and at worst unequivocally life ending

Just now, Stefan Payne said:

 

Still, you are going at it backwards. The Problem is the source...

You're damn right the problem is at the source, and if you can't educate the source then shut it down.  Simple.

[Blademaster91]

34 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You'd be surprised how easy it is to convince a new mother of anything, it is incredibly easy to scare a new mother into anything.  In fact fear is one of the biggest tools used by fraudsters and con artists.

Then if people don't want to listen to any factual statements or arguments it isn't the fault of social media, if you want social media to be an open platform then thats how it works.

19 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Yet.

 

There is no "arbitrary" or "opinion" in this, if you say vaccines are dangerous and people shouldn't get them then you are wrong and the post should be deleted.

 

And that is the problem, people shouldn't be free to do bad shit, especially when it is at best poor advice with no benefit and at worst unequivocally life ending

You're damn right the problem is at the source, and if you can't educate the source then shut it down.  Simple.

It seems like you'd be fine with censorship then, "people shouldn't be free to do bad shit" is pretty much censorship and is against what a free and open society is.

That is the system China has, either be educated and be vaccinated by force or be punished for it.

21 minutes ago, Arika S said:

not replying directly to what you've posted since i have no further questions regarding that.

 

But with what you've said in the above what are your thoughts on dangerous drivers? weaving in and out of traffic, for example this idiot

 

There might be dangerous people on the road, so fine lets ban the ability to drive your own vehicle.

[Stefan Payne]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Yet.

No, ever.

Look at how well it is in Social Media right now.

And you want to add more "bannable Offenses"?! 

When people are banned for saying "men aren't women".

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

There is no "arbitrary" or "opinion" in this, if you say vaccines are dangerous and people shouldn't get them then you are wrong and the post should be deleted.

And how do you know that the Vaccine is NOT dangerous?!
Its not like the Medical field is free of Problems, right?!

You remember Thalidomide??

There's a ton of shit!

 

Doctors perscribing addictive Opioids and other stuff going on.

 

That is one of the Problems you also have to deal with.

Or shit like Fentanyl.

 

You have some real problems, even in the Medical field.

 

The "Anti-Vaxxers" are not one of the pririties right now and should be dealt with as well, but not in the way you want it to.

 

We aren't living in China!

Because that's basically what you want!

Living under a Totalitarian Regime...

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

And that is the problem, people shouldn't be free to do bad shit, especially when it is at best poor advice with no benefit and at worst unequivocally life ending

Then move to China, if you don't live in a free Society, stop demanding censorship of stuff you don't want/like.

Or maybe Venezuela...

Or Great britain, where the Police knocks on your door when you like the wrong post on Twitter (or was it Facebook??).

Where they are planning on sending you to jail when you look at the wrong website...

 

Its sad that the German, that doesn't really live in a free Country, that has compelled speech laws, has to tell you about Freedom...

 

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You're damn right the problem is at the source, and if you can't educate the source then shut it down.  Simple.

The Source are those non medical wonder healers.

Not the Mothers.

And you can't shut down everything...

 

Especially when the Problem is trust in the Medical System, wich needs to be repaired. Not people jailed for "wrongthink".

[Arika]

2 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

There might be dangerous people on the road, so fine lets ban the ability to drive your own vehicle.

no, lets ban the people that drive dangerously

[mr moose]

11 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Then if people don't want to listen to any factual statements or arguments it isn't the fault of social media, if you want social media to be an open platform then thats how it works.

It seems like you'd be fine with censorship then, "people shouldn't be free to do bad shit" is pretty much censorship and is against what a free and open society is.

That is the system China has, either be educated and be vaccinated by force or be punished for it.

There might be dangerous people on the road, so fine lets ban the ability to drive your own vehicle.

No, actually I am not fine with censorship.  I am fine with BS statements that are factually wrong and cause harm to be deleted though.

 

9 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

No, ever.

Look at how well it is in Social Media right now.

And you want to add more "bannable Offenses"?! 

When people are banned for saying "men aren't women".

And how do you know that the Vaccine is NOT dangerous?!
Its not like the Medical field is free of Problems, right?!

You remember Thalidomide??

There's a ton of shit!

 

Doctors perscribing addictive Opioids and other stuff going on.

 

That is one of the Problems you also have to deal with.

Or shit like Fentanyl.

 

You have some real problems, even in the Medical field.

 

The "Anti-Vaxxers" are not one of the pririties right now and should be dealt with as well, but not in the way you want it to.

There is only one thing we are discussing here, if you want to have a discussion about opioid problems or thalidomide than that is another discussion, this is about vaccines,  The one topic that has had more research and more transparency and more history and efficacy than any other pharmaceutical intervention known to man.  It is not up for debate about the efficacy or safety of vaccines, those figures are born out in the evidence for all to see.  We don't need opinion or discussion or even false analogies to gender issues, we have cold hard facts and if we don;t know we have that one simple line, "go see a doctor".   There is literally no need to make any other proclamations about the efficacy or safety of vaccines.  And to be quite frank if you go down that path, I am just going to respond to your posts with the moronic contempt it deserves.

 

9 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

We aren't living in China!

Because that's basically what you want!

Living under a Totalitarian Regime...

Then move to China, if you don't live in a free Society, stop demanding censorship of stuff you don't want/like.

Or maybe Venezuela...

Or Great britain, where the Police knocks on your door when you like the wrong post on Twitter (or was it Facebook??).

Where they are planning on sending you to jail when you look at the wrong website...

 

Its sad that the German, that doesn't really live in a free Country, that has compelled speech laws, has to tell you about Freedom...

 

The Source are those non medical wonder healers.

Not the Mothers.

And you can't shut down everything...

 

Especially when the Problem is trust in the Medical System, wich needs to be repaired. Not people jailed for "wrongthink".

Crikey, now you think I want to live in china?  Bloody hell, All I want is for known factually incorrect posts that lead to the harm of others through misinformation to be removed.  That's hardly a dictatorial position.

 

[Blademaster91]

14 minutes ago, Arika S said:

no, lets ban the people that drive dangerously

With the reddit link and video there, yeah they should be fined pretty heavily for lane splitting,lane splitting is dumb even if you're on a motorcycle. Although your're implying lets ban people from driving that could potentially drive dangerously or for driving dangerously on a single offense when otherwise being a competent driver.

[mr moose]

19 minutes ago, Arika S said:

no, lets ban the people that drive dangerously

You mean like they already do? when they see dangerous driving they pull them over.  Who would have thought we could be so dictatorial and unfair to the FREEDOMS of road users?

 

 

[mr moose]

Just now, Blademaster91 said:

With the reddit link and video there, yeah they should be fined pretty heavily for lane splitting,lane splitting is dumb even if you're on a motorcycle. Although your're implying lets ban people from driving that could potentially drive dangerously or for driving dangerously on a single offense when otherwise being a competent driver.

There's that word "potential" again,  there is no potential in this, it is about actual dangers not potential dangers.  We have actual people dying because of the anti vaccine nonsense that goes on.  The idea is to remove actual posts that are definitely promoting dangerous behaviour, not removing people who might post about it.  Just like the law removes drivers who are actually driving dangerously, not just with the potential to drive dangerously.

[Arika]

9 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Although your're implying lets ban people from driving that could potentially drive dangerously

false

 

9 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

driving dangerously on a single offense when otherwise being a competent driver.

also false.

 

im saying ban people from driving for constantly driving dangerously and saying it's their choice to do so, and vehemently denying that they are putting no one else in danger but themselves and their passengers (which is also outright false) and stand in the town square saying how dangerous driving isn't a bad thing because they have personally never crashed.

 

we're talking about children that don't get a say in the matter when it comes to anti-vaxxing, the most vulnerable people on the planet and they are being used by their parents to drive their dangerous ideals based on false science and crowd idiocy because if "all these other people are saying vaccines are bad, then they just be"

 

i would take it a step further and say that not vaccinating your children (unless there is a LEGITIMATE medical reason and in SOME cases religious reasons) should be child abuse and that child should be taken away from you and you should be thrown in prison. because apparently autism is worse than death to these people.

[Stefan Payne]

14 minutes ago, Arika S said:

But with what you've said in the above what are your thoughts on dangerous drivers? weaving in and out of traffic, for example this idiot

Yeah, there are many of those guys. 

A better example would be "mit 100 um die Kurve". Even if you don't speak Germany, you can see what happened.

 

I'm an advocate of a mandatory safety training before you can drive. 

Or rather: I want those drivers to loose control and see how it feels before they can really drive and have a (more or less) permanent license.

IMO that would solve many of the Problems.

Because you need to show people how easy it is to loose control. How bad it feels...

Because people need to see/feel the consequence of their action before they really accept the truth...

14 minutes ago, Arika S said:

putting other peoples lives in danger (just like anti-vaxxers do) clearly no regard for the safty of others (just like anti-vaxxers), confidence in their ability to know how to control things (just like anti-vaxxers). this guy would absolutely be pulled over and arrested if he was caught, but would that not be censoring him in a way? he's free to drive like an asshole and put people in danger, but it's only if his actions directly kill someone that he should be punished?

There is a difference in having freedom and control your life (and partially your Child as well) and what you are describing.

But as said, the best solution for such things is to let them Drive with someone like "Walter Röhrl" driving like he used to.

And also you have to show them how it is to loose control.

And also things like this:
https://www.focus.de/auto/videos/unfall-simulator-offenbart-so-schmerzvoll-kann-bereits-ein-aufprall-bei-8-km-h-sein_id_4969147.html

(Video is English for me).

 

IMO its a bad educational System, wich is often times like 100 Years old or more and not up to todays stuff...

 

4 minutes ago, Arika S said:

no, lets ban the people that drive dangerously

I can see where you are coming from.

But banning doesn't solve the real Problem. You need to know the dangers and feel them to realize you done wrong.

 

I'm for the more educational thing. So you were driving dangerously?  -> You have 1-6 Months to complete a safety training.

A special kind where you're pushed really hard with a Car they provided (without any electronic helpers), that is designed to show you what can/will happen if you goofed...

 

When I drove my Toyota, my back came around and wanted to overtake me a couple of times. And I also drove safely in very bad, snowy conditiones with the Toyota. Like can't see much, have to guess where the street might (although I kinda knew the road, I didn't do it too well) be and RWD...

That was almost 10 years ago. And I have to admit that I probably wouldn't be able to do that again...

Because I often drove like Walter Röhrl described it -> Sideways...

[Blademaster91]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

There's that word "potential" again,  there is no potential in this, it is about actual dangers not potential dangers.  We have actual people dying because of the anti vaccine nonsense that goes on.  The idea is to remove actual posts that are definitely promoting dangerous behaviour, not removing people who might post about it.  Just like the law removes drivers who are actually driving dangerously, not just with the potential to drive dangerously.

I'm saying "potentially" because I agree with @LAwLz and I don't trust companies like Facebook or Google to remove posts, while still keeping some kind of grey area because it would either be very difficult to implement an automated system that can choose, or it would be the intent of these companies to not allow any other discussion.

[Giganthrax]

12 hours ago, Drak3 said:

The only way to curb the spread is thorough factual demonstration.

 

This is just going to create echo chambers and solidify these people in their beliefs.

Nah. Just make the algorithms so they don't advertise this trash to people.

 

As it is right now, the algorithms automatically advertise stuff to you that you've been watching/reading previously. So if you're anti-vax, it's gonna spam you with more anti-vax stuff. They have to change the algorithms to do the opposite + to show actual medical information to people who have shown an interest in anti-vax (for example).

 

This is the only way you can have factual demonstration. These people aren't going to seek it out on their own, or be inspired to do so, unless their computer keeps putting it in front of them. 

[CarlBar]

@Stefan Payne I feel like you need to do some reading on the whole anti-vaccination thing, where it started and what's happened since.

 

Let me give you the cliff notes version.

 

It all started here in the uk back in 98 witha  report published by a doctor Wakefield claiming a link between the MMR vaccine and Autism. Media jumped all over it and blew it up huge.

 

Subsequently other scientific studies failed to reproduce the results. This sparked an investigation by various parties but most prominently a journalist by the name of deer. These uncovered not only financial conflicts of interest on wakefields part. But unethical treatment of the children involved in the study and ultimately falsification of data regarding the patient's medical histories within the report doctor wakefield produced. As a result of these investigations the british general medical council charged him with a large number of misconduct and unethical behaviour claims and after finding him guilt in 2010 stripped him of his medical license. He's officially no longer a medical professional of any description.

 

This was all over 9 years ago now. The evidence has been out in the wild for a long time and there is no one who is a regulated practitioner that is claiming to support the vaccines are dangerous narrative, and hasn't been for a long time. But the belief that vaccines are dangerous hasn't died out.. We've been factually showing anti-vaccination people that they're wrong and why they're wrong for almost a decade and they're still repeating the same claims. We've tried the whole shows them they' wrong approach. It hasn't stopped them.

[mr moose]

9 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

I'm saying "potentially" because I agree with @LAwLz and I don't trust companies like Facebook or Google to remove posts, while still keeping some kind of grey area because it would either be very difficult to implement an automated system that can choose, or it would be the intent of these companies to not allow any other discussion.

That is quite a different argument to the one proposed.  No one has identified a system by which it will happen yet.  As it stands there are definitely claims that are unmistakably dangerous and have already crossed the line, many made by the same people repeatedly, removing those specifically (by hand) would only take one person scouring facebook and would go a long way.

[Gmoneyinthebank]

The people who pay them don't want other people's voices competing with them.

 

For all the whinging about anti-vax people... There are 1,000,000 times more deaths from products/ideas that won't be banned by social media giants.  They won't be banned because they pay money to them.  Let's not pretend this is about helping people, when it's obviously just profit based.

[Stefan Payne]

4 hours ago, CarlBar said:

@Stefan Payne I feel like you need to do some reading on the whole anti-vaccination thing, where it started and what's happened since.

It doesn't matter in this case, where some people want to censor speech.

 

4 hours ago, CarlBar said:

It all started here in the uk back in 98 witha  report published by a doctor Wakefield claiming a link between the MMR vaccine and Autism. Media jumped all over it and blew it up huge.

So some old guy we all know was right about "Fake News" and the Word "Lügenpresse" is valid?

So you're saying that the Media is the main Cause of this. Yes and the Media is the "Enemy of the People" according to that person.

So you agree with him on that. And I also agree.

 

So basically what we need is change in libel laws that include Fake News, that is proven to be wrong and forces them to take down the article and replace it with a retraction and also mention that retraction under every article they write.

 

Yeah I'd agree with that.

 

4 hours ago, CarlBar said:

But the belief that vaccines are dangerous hasn't died out..

A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

 

Yeah, but that doesn't change that this is the wrong way to go about it.

The Problem is the Media.

 

There are already 2 similar storys, though more political nature that are totally pulled out off their asses and made without any verification and looking at the facts/sources.

Well, at least one of those got the Washington Post a 250 Million Dollar (=the Price Bezos paid for it) Lawsuit...

 

4 hours ago, CarlBar said:

We've been factually showing anti-vaccination people that they're wrong and why they're wrong for almost a decade and they're still repeating the same claims. We've tried the whole shows them they' wrong approach. It hasn't stopped them.

According to Wikipedia, YOU claiming to be something is not a reliable source.

Some Media Outlet like Huffington post citing you in your Youtube Video is a reliable post.

 

It might be possible that those people are sitting in front of those incompetent and bad News Outlets and believe every word they tell on screen.

And they are wrong just too often.