Tek Syndicate Audio Myths with @MayflowerElectronics

[vredstein]

Now this is quite interesting. I bought a Xonar STX on recommendation from Linus, and now Logan shows up and he's all like "You done wasted your money, n000000000b! LOL ROFL PWNT buy my album"

 

I just don't know what to believe anymore.

 

At the very least my system is sexier for having that card in it, so I've got that going for me.

 

 

So how did you like the sound of your system before you saw the video? Were you unhappy with it?

[ShearMe]

no, the input power needs to be AC it cannot be DC, Sorry I didn't realise that's what you were asking.

 

But if your talking about a 9 volt rechargeable then you would need a resistor to limit the current so you don't cook the battery.

 

Batteries are not AC - how is connecting a DC current to the same terminals the batteries are connected to different? I'd remove the batteries if I were to try this - no need if the amp is inside a PC permanently.

[mr moose]

 

There is so much false information in the audio world it's insane.

 

Someone who is selling audio equipment will always tell you why other audio equipment is inferior or there is no reason for you to buy theirs.

 

The Tek video was presented as a piece that cuts through the BS. Logan chose to present only a DAC and amp seller's views, giving us the "unbiased" truth and unsurprisingly it was received as a "sound cards are inferior" declaration. Having a cute intro burying a sound card like a useless piece of garbage only reinforced this.

The Mayflower guest has a right to his opinion, but he has to understand his specific employment puts the motivation for his opinion and Tek's choice of sources into question. A good journalist (and this is journalism) would have chosen an expert with no vested interest in either solution apart from obtaining the best value. It would be like Linus interviewing an AMD rep about which is better-AMD or Intel, and passing it off as information all viewers should trust, treat as the unbiased truth, and act on.

It may seem much easier to make a decision when you don't confuse things with potentially conflicting opinions from multiple sources, but we've seen how that creates willfully ignorant consumers and viewers.  Maybe Logan should interview JJ from Asus and let the viewers use their own judgement to determine which is best for them.

 

 

 

 

Now this is quite interesting. I bought a Xonar STX on recommendation from Linus, and now Logan shows up and he's all like "You done wasted your money, n000000000b! LOL ROFL PWNT buy my album"

 

I just don't know what to believe anymore.

 

At the very least my system is sexier for having that card in it, so I've got that going for me.

 

So how did you like the sound of your system before you saw the video? Were you unhappy with it?

 

You need to put your post outside of the quote box so we know what you are saying and what you are responding to.

[TheProfosist]

This type of thing has been hotly debated since the 70's, if it wasn't tube versus transistor it was vinyl v tape, then tape v cd then eq v processor then dac v tape the dac v vinyl and so on until we are debating which implementation of the DAC/AMP is better.

 

The funny thing about all this is that there is no reason why sound cards have to be shit, they only need to improve the headphone amp and de-clutter the software/driver package and bam, we have a product with a purpose. But companies like Asus and Creative have gone sown a different path, one of capitalizing on market trends.

 

In all reality we will still be debating it in a year or two years time because there are some people that always fall victim to marketing and that's where reviews and advice comes from.

You do realize that companies make what will sell for the most part right? As in the market dictates what the companies will design/produce/sell not the companies dictating what the market will buy. So yes, the market has to be informed and buy different things. Once the companies see the trend they will change what they are making to cater to this.

[ShearMe]

the market dictates what the companies will design/produce/sell not the companies dictating what the market will buy. 

 

You're right unless you're talking about Sennheiser. 

[mr moose]

Batteries are not AC - how is connecting a DC current to the same terminals the batteries are connected to different? I'd remove the batteries if I were to try this - no need if the amp is inside a PC permanently.

 

The amp requires a dual rail supply, that is it needs a 12VDC, a center rail at 0VDC and a -12VDC.  The only way to obtain this is from an AC supply were a half wave rectifier can give the +-12DVC supply. 

The inclusion of the batteries is solely for portable use, they can be omitted from the circuit if running on power only,  However because the amp requires dual rail supply and a common earth ground it cannot be powered from a straight 12VDC supply.

[mr moose]

You do realize that companies make what will sell for the most part right? As in the market dictates what the companies will design/produce/sell not the companies dictating what the market will buy. So yes, the market has to be informed and buy different things. Once the companies see the trend they will change what they are making to cater to this.

To a degree, but marketing is what sells one product over another,  did you know that cars with spoilers and alloy wheels sell faster than cars without, regardless of whether the other car is cheaper, newer and better.  It all comes down to convincing the people that product a is better, And that is easily done when you have an industry that capitalizes on the human inability to separate auditory sensory information from preconceptual information.  For example, people will pay more for food at a restaurant based solely on how the menu is laid out.  It has nothing to do with what the custom,er wants/needs but how they are tricked into concluding that item a is going to taste better, cook quicker or simply be cheaper.  Sound cards are no different. Understanding human psychology is why beats are so big, why people think monster brand is awesome and why people pay more for nikes instead of getting another brand that is just as good.

[TheProfosist]

You're right unless you're talking about Sennheiser. 

No, they just aim their products at a different more specific market. I would also guess that that market has expanded in recent years as well from mostly professional and prosumer usage to now more and more consumer usage.

I may be wrong with that last bit since I havnt invested any real money into higher audio equipment until ~3 years ago so I havnt been able to watch trends in that market very long. I have always been interested in better audio quality but had been content with what I had been procuring until then.

I would imagine their sale to professionals has been pretty constant. But the prosumer market would have been steadily increasing since the introduction of the podcast, getting bigger with youtube videos and now again with twitch streaming. As for the consumer market I would assume starting from shortly before beats hit the market they started seeing an increase in sales, even more so now with forums and internet celebrities in different markets covering "audiophile" products. I am guessing there was a drop in the consumer market somewhere in the early 90s due to portable device taking off and the hifi craze ending. For those of you with more knowledge on this subject than me please if you have something to add or correct do so.

[Kilerbomb]

Never in the video did we say sound cards are useless. I'm sure someone, somewhere has a valid point for using it. All we are saying is to not buy into marketing and know the facts about audio and how it really works, and to know what is good and bad for it. For the majority of people, it isn't good.

Thank you so much. I had almost no knowledge about audio-related setups in the past. In fact, I have a "gaming" 5.1 surround headset on my head right now... Not too proud of that now that I know quite a lot more than I previously did about audio. Your guys' video inspired me to do some research about audio setups and the like, and I can say that I'll be ditching this headset soon. After the extensive research, I've now got my sights set on the Beyerdynamic DT 770 PRO's (250 Ohm version) along with the Black Objective 2 and probably a ODAC, too.

 

I can't thank you and Logan enough, you guys have opened my eyes.

[TheProfosist]

To a degree, but marketing is what sells one product over another,  did you know that cars with spoilers and alloy wheels sell faster than cars without, regardless of whether the other car is cheaper, newer and better.  It all comes down to convincing the people that product a is better, And that is easily done when you have an industry that capitalizes on the human inability to separate auditory sensory information from preconceptual information.  For example, people will pay more for food at a restaurant based solely on how the menu is laid out.  It has nothing to do with what the custom,er wants/needs but how they are tricked into concluding that item a is going to taste better, cook quicker or simply be cheaper.  Sound cards are no different. Understanding human psychology is why beats are so big, why people think monster brand is awesome and why people pay more for nikes instead of getting another brand that is just as good.

Hey man I did start typing a proper reply to this but It started not making sense awfully quick as I am quite very tired, so till tomorrow... err, later today

[Lauen]

Never in the video did we say sound cards are useless. I'm sure someone, somewhere has a valid point for using it. All we are saying is to not buy into marketing and know the facts about audio and how it really works, and to know what is good and bad for it. For the majority of people, it isn't good.

well, my reason is that I had VIA HD audio on my old motherboard, which didn't get loud enough, when I tried to use EQ to get some more bass I got crackling and when the bass got strong, all the other sounds sort of got lower, if you understand. So I just thought F it, I'll get a dedicated soundcard. This was almost three years ago, I was a mere kid and a fool. I just stuck with it. Though I will try my best, and test onboard vs dedicated soundcard during the holiday, as I haven't even tried the onboard on my current Sabertooth board.

[ShearMe]

The inclusion of the batteries is solely for portable use, they can be omitted from the circuit if running on power only,  However because the amp requires dual rail supply and a common earth ground it cannot be powered from a straight 12VDC supply.

 

How does it run off batteries if it can't run off DC? You're not making sense man. I feel like you're talking in circles.

[Tek_Addict]

I watched that video and it really makes me want to knock myself out begin a proud owner of a Xonar Essence STX Sound Card after considering i was going to buy a DAC 4 years ago and i NEVER  did sadly  will definitely be investing in a DAC ASAP.  

 

 

Video Link 

 

[ShearMe]

I watched that video and it really makes me want to knock myself out begin a proud owner of a Xonar Essence STX Sound Card after considering i was going to buy a DAC 4 years ago and i NEVER  did sadly  will definitely be investing in a DAC ASAP.  

 

dat snr tho

[mr moose]

How does it run off batteries if it can't run off DC? You're not making sense man. I feel like you're talking in circles.

 

this is a dual supply, the O2 is similar except that it has a half wave rectifier instead.  You'll note the output is made up of two 12VDC supplies.  This called a dual rail supply,  If you could use the -12V rail as well on your pc's PSU then you could run it from that.  however you would have to modify the O2 as you cannot plug it into the power in.

[beefalo]

I think the best option for people is a hifimediy usb dac.  They use the same audio chip as the odac, and then get an amp like a fio e9 or schitt amp.  The hifimediy dac costs 50% of an odac and offers 90% or more of the performance.

[SkilledRebuilds]

 

As a proud owner of a Xonar Essence STX this video has got my jimmies rustled to say the least. I can't say I find it easy to believe what they're saying. It seems highly unlikely to me that an entire category of PC products is useless and only sells based on marketing and false information.

That said I also don't see Logan as someone who would make a video like this without doing his homework first. I don't know what to think. 

I'd be really curious to see what Linus thinks of this, since he seems to be a strong advocate for Asus sound cards.

I was thinking the same thing and then also thought about generations ago,

When CPU's were taking a bigger hit of utilization it would be beneficial (albiet slightly) to offload that with a different product, providing noticeably BETTER sound quality at the time of onboard being so sub par.

 

Since those early days, sound cards have still been released, however onboard audio HAS dramatically improved leaps and bounds, so "back in the day this whole thing was feasible for better quality and better performance"

 

Generations later, onboard sound has definitely changed for the better.

Especially recent years with enthusiast motherboards, trickling down all special features to budget/mainstream boards.

 

Either way you look at it, "the more you know..."

[t0wer]

How does it run off batteries if it can't run off DC? You're not making sense man. I feel like you're talking in circles.

 

moose beat me to it but whatever

 

there is a rectifier and voltage regulators that changes the 12v AC input into two 12v(?) DC rails  (+12v    0v    -12v)

the amp runs off dc, the circuitry for changing ac to dc is in the amp, not the wall wart.

 

when it uses batteries it just uses two 9v rails (+9v   0v   -9v)

 

here's the 02 schematic

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B52Awjeyc5zKMjRlYjlhNGItNGJlNC00ODlmLWIwM2MtNDI4ZWU4YWRjY2Y4&hl=en_US

at the top of the schematic there's a section used for battery only and a section for ac power only

[ShearMe]

[snip img]

this is a dual supply, the O2 is similar except that it has a half wave rectifier instead.  You'll note the output is made up of two 12VDC supplies.  This called a dual rail supply,  If you could use the -12V rail as well on your pc's PSU then you could run it from that.  however you would have to modify the O2 as you cannot plug it into the power in.

 

moose beat me to it but whatever

 

[tldr]

 

You guys make this shit too complicated. :rolleyes:  Obviously I realized it's more involved than making a simple molex -> coaxial adapter, but my point was it IS possible to get power from a PSU with some modifications. Sheesh. 

[MayflowerElectronics]

Holy shit man, I got to bed for 8 hours and this thread is almost bigger than the FAQ 0.o

Thank you so much. I had almost no knowledge about audio-related setups in the past. In fact, I have a "gaming" 5.1 surround headset on my head right now... Not too proud of that now that I know quite a lot more than I previously did about audio. Your guys' video inspired me to do some research about audio setups and the like, and I can say that I'll be ditching this headset soon. After the extensive research, I've now got my sights set on the Beyerdynamic DT 770 PRO's (250 Ohm version) along with the Black Objective 2 and probably a ODAC, too.

 

I can't thank you and Logan enough, you guys have opened my eyes.

 

Glad we could be of service.

 

You guys make this shit too complicated. :rolleyes:  Obviously I realized it's more involved than making a simple molex -> coaxial adapter, but my point was it IS possible to get power from a PSU with some modifications. Sheesh. 

Yeah but we are audiophiles. We want to prove you wrong until you beg for mercy. Duh.

[Shikarikato]

Most desktop stuff is very small. Our products are roughly 3x3.5x1.5.

And then you have companies like Schiit (I know it's your favorite wink wink nudge nudge)!

"  16 x 12 x 3.875”, 30 lbs " For both the DAC and amp each. Guess it's a 16 x 12 x 7.75", 60 lbs pile of poo by your understanding.

 

So another one of your favorite places, Head-fi.org, has always considered that " better " amps than the O2 are more suitable for " better " headphones. That and I don't remember things very well but I know that over here tube amps and their coloring and distorting of music is very well appreciated. I guess on an extreme example with the HD800s in summit-fi terms of audio tube amps are almost always one of the options with them. Can I get a brief rundown on whats the problem with that/those?

[ShearMe]

And then you have companies like Schiit (I know it's your favorite wink wink nudge nudge)!

"  16 x 12 x 3.875”, 30 lbs " For both the DAC and amp each. Guess it's a 16 x 12 x 7.75", 60 lbs pile of poo by your understanding.

 

So another one of your favorite places, Head-fi.org, has always considered that " better " amps than the O2 are more suitable for " better " headphones. That and I don't remember things very well but I know that over here tube amps and their coloring and distorting of music is very well appreciated. I guess on an extreme example with the HD800s in summit-fi terms of audio tube amps are almost always one of the options with them. Can I get a brief rundown on whats the problem with that/those?

 

I can baaaaarely hear the difference between my $700 stack and my ROG motherboard when using HD 650's. That's the problem.

[Shikarikato]

I can baaaaarely hear the difference between my $700 stack and my ROG motherboard when using my HD 650's. That's the problem.

Wow mucho fast response!!! I'm almost about to go to school wish I could continue. 

 

I plan to buy a pair of HD600s sometime soon *hopefully* and all what I hear over at Head-fi.org is the constant talk about how the best Amp to go with HD600/650s is the Bottlehead Crack which is both more expensive than the O2 and a tube amp so it "distorts" the audio. 

[MayflowerElectronics]

Wow mucho fast response!!! I'm almost about to go to school wish I could continue.

I plan to buy a pair of HD600s sometime soon *hopefully* and all what I hear over at Head-fi.org is the constant talk about how the best Amp to go with HD600/650s is the Bottlehead Crack which is both more expensive than the O2 and a tube amp so it "distorts" the audio.

Lol, headfi is gonna be headfi.

That tube amp looks like a homemade project gone wrong. I'm sure it sounds exactly like every other tube amp...

[ShearMe]

Lol, headfi is gonna be headfi.

That tube amp looks like a homemade project gone wrong. I'm sure it sounds exactly like every other tube amp...

 

No way, I hear the new Vali has ringing added to the sound signature.