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Mr_Troll

AMD Zen to Bring Greater than 40% IPC Increase, New Reports Suggests

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There are 2 things this could mean. The first is a quad core zen chip at 4ghz is about 1 1/2 times better than a 4ghz quad core (two module) Kaveri or Carrizzo chip including the new system getting rid of modules and SMT.

The other thing it could mean is a 4ghz amd chip has about 1.4-1.5 times better single core performance than a 4 ghz Carrizzo or Kaveri chip. Add that to the fact that they are getting rid of the module system (which should result in at least a 30% multi core increase) as well as smt (another 20-30%) means single core performance will get a 40-50% jump and multi core score will basically double. Currently the x4 860k, a 4ghz chip, gets about a 2700 on geek bench single core, with Carrizzo probably capable of 10-20% that (around a 3000). Basically I am getting that a 4 ghz zen chip will get a 4500 single core score (on par with the 6700k), and chances are you can get an 8 core version of that (the fx 8350 has around same tdp as as extreme edition chips) that will deliver a multi score of over 35k, probably around 40k, that could be more efficient than Intel ones (amd seems to have had to squeeze as much as they could out of 28 nm, so 14 nm finfet will help power consumption a lot). Basically a 4 ghz 5960x with around a 100 watt tdp that costs around the price of a 6700k or 5820k. Wow.

Sign me up! I'll sell my 6700k if this is true!


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There are 2 things this could mean. The first is a quad core zen chip at 4ghz is about 1 1/2 times better than a 4ghz quad core (two module) Kaveri or Carrizzo chip including the new system getting rid of modules and SMT.

The other thing it could mean is a 4ghz amd chip has about 1.4-1.5 times better single core performance than a 4 ghz Carrizzo or Kaveri chip. Add that to the fact that they are getting rid of the module system (which should result in at least a 30% multi core increase) as well as smt (another 20-30%) means single core performance will get a 40-50% jump and multi core score will basically double. Currently the x4 860k, a 4ghz chip, gets about a 2700 on geek bench single core, with Carrizzo probably capable of 10-20% that (around a 3000). Basically I am getting that a 4 ghz zen chip will get a 4500 single core score (on par with the 6700k), and chances are you can get an 8 core version of that (the fx 8350 has around same tdp as as extreme edition chips) that will deliver a multi score of over 35k, probably around 40k, that could be more efficient than Intel ones (amd seems to have had to squeeze as much as they could out of 28 nm, so 14 nm finfet will help power consumption a lot). Basically a 4 ghz 5960x with around a 100 watt tdp that costs around the price of a 6700k or 5820k. Wow.

Sign me up! I'll sell my 6700k if this is true!

 

8 cores for cheap? Please. Remember Kaby Lake is coming soon, and Intel has time to react

Then you should expect AMD to lose money, fast... Money for R&D is probably at least 1 Billion, plus costs for distribution, manufacturing, retailers cut, e.t.c... 

They're going to need to maximize their profits to stay afloat, meaning they can't afford to have small profit margins . I'm honestly going to be surprised if an 8 core sells for less than 800$... They listed the 9590 for 1000$ at release... So don't be surprised when it's over 800$.


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8 cores for cheap? Please. Remember Kaby Lake is coming soon, and Intel has time to react

I doubt Kaby lake will make a huge difference though. The architecture is mostly planned out now so Intel can't change it. As well, most likely it is only a 5-10% improvement.

The other point is a valid one. However, it would still be a better 8 core than Intels offerings (even after Broadwell e) and chances are their 6 cores will go around 400-500 at higher clock speeds than Intel ones, which would still be a great deal.


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I doubt Kaby lake will make a huge difference though. The architecture is mostly planned out now so Intel can't change it. As well, most likely it is only a 5-10% improvement.

The other point is a valid one. However, it would still be a better 8 core than Intels offerings (even after Broadwell e) and chances are their 6 cores will go around 400-500 at higher clock speeds than Intel ones, which would still be a great deal.

I forget that it takes a long time for an architecture, but I would still buy a 6-8 core Zen for 400-500$(If the motherboards are cheap enough)


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Woow, 6-8 core chips for cheap... nope, it will not happen, AMD will price them according to the performance delta with a comparable intel CPU, they won´t be cheap, AMD needs the Money. If you expect a 8c/16t Zen CPU with a performance close to the 5960x for about 400 dollars... then you don´t understand how this game works.

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Woow, 6-8 core chips for cheap... nope, it will not happen, AMD will price them according to the performance delta with a comparable intel CPU, they won´t be cheap, AMD needs the Money. If you expect a 8c/16t Zen CPU with a performance close to the 5960x for about 400 dollars... then you don´t understand how this game works.

They'll probably price aggressively, but they sure won't price for cost.

 

If they have a product equivalent to a 5960x (roughly, of course) it'll probably be ~700 or 800, just so they make people who buy 5960x from that point out look like idiots, while still making a load of cash

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They'll probably price aggressively, but they sure won't price for cost.

 

If they have a product equivalent to a 5960x (roughly, of course) it'll probably be ~700 or 800, just so they make people who buy 5960x from that point out look like idiots, while still making a load of cash

Exactly. If people think a 5960X costs Intel 2x as much to make as a 5930K.....It don't :P

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They'll probably price aggressively, but they sure won't price for cost.

 

If they have a product equivalent to a 5960x (roughly, of course) it'll probably be ~700 or 800, just so they make people who buy 5960x from that point out look like idiots, while still making a load of cash

True that.

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I might trust it since AMD didn't work on this alone, but I am going to wait and see if they are honest this time as AMD/Intel/Nvidia are never honest.


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AMD taunting 40% increase very likely mean that they have a 30% faster part...if we look at what they did in the past AMD tend to be a little bit optimistic when it comes to actual performance.

But then, even if it only manage to match ivy-bridge IPC if they can have good feature rich motherboards for 99$ or something like that...and they can deliver this in 4 and 6 core chips for around 180$USD and 240$USD respectively then i think it could be a very interesting option for many users.

Those are my hopes for zen, i won't set them too high so i won't be disappointed i just want them to deliver something that will be priced wisely and will be a good alternative to intel.


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AMD taunting 40% increase very likely mean that they have a 30% faster part...if we look at what they did in the past AMD tend to be a little bit optimistic when it comes to actual performance.But then, even if it only manage to match ivy-bridge IPC if they can have good feature rich motherboards for 99$ or something like that...and they can deliver this in 4 and 6 core chips for around 180$USD and 240$USD respectively then i think it could be a very interesting option for many users.Those are my hopes for zen, i won't set them too high so i won't be disappointed i just want them to deliver something that will be priced wisely and will be a good alternative to intel.

Id say 40% over excavator is feasible.

However, they did taunt excavator to be 30% faster then steamroller at equal clocks *35w TDP limit.

HOWEVER, this was never proven. Some tests show 10-15%, others are void due to not running chips at same TDP limit (Kaveri at 35w and Carrizo at 15w... yeah, watch carrizo throttle to death)

The wildcard is Excavator, aka Carrizo. We never got conclusive benchmarks from any reputable source. Only hearsay and rumors. Some claim there was tests, i havent seen any test short of two laptops being compared. But then again, benching one laptop with 15w TDP against a 35w TDP part is just cruel. Since both are CMT, both are 28nm, the 15w will always throttle first even if both have equally "low" clocks. Because the 15w SKU will have a shitty cooler.

anyway.

What does AM4 need to deliver?

NVMe PCIe Gen3 x4 M.2

Full DDR4 speed support at all levels (unlike intel with their shitty MHz lock for lower end boards)

Decent numbers of fan-headers with atleast 15w per connector (cuz unless you get a higher end intel board, you are severely limited here. Which sucks)

PS2 port

4x Sata3 ports minimum....

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Id say 40% over excavator is feasible.

However, they did taunt excavator to be 30% faster then steamroller at equal clocks *35w TDP limit.

As far as I know Excavator was marketed as 15% higher IPC and 30% more power efficient than Steamroller, not 30% faster.

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Woow, 6-8 core chips for cheap... nope, it will not happen, AMD will price them according to the performance delta with a comparable intel CPU, they won´t be cheap, AMD needs the Money. If you expect a 8c/16t Zen CPU with a performance close to the 5960x for about 400 dollars... then you don´t understand how this game works.

 

They'll still bin them and sell the shitty performers as lower end CPU's, possibly with disabled cores, so there'll be something for everyone. But yeah, they will price them accordingly, though they could still sell them for a fair bit less than a 5960x, to grab some market share quickly. 


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anyway.

What does AM4 need to deliver?

NVMe PCIe Gen3 x4 M.2

Full DDR4 speed support at all levels (unlike intel with their shitty MHz lock for lower end boards)

Decent numbers of fan-headers with atleast 15w per connector (cuz unless you get a higher end intel board, you are severely limited here. Which sucks)

PS2 port

4x Sata3 ports minimum....

well, ...for me personally what i would want to see from those 99$ AM4 motherboard would be a solid 6 or 8 phase VRM with beefy heatsinks and dual GPU support @ pcie 3.0 x8/x8 (ideally x16/16)

all the rest i don't care...my sata3 ssd is fast enough but yes of course full overclocking options supported on those boards including memory, cpu bus and what not.

it's okay for AMD to have a slightly slower part (let's say within 10% from current intel) but give me a fully featured board for 100$.


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anyway.

What does AM4 need to deliver?

NVMe PCIe Gen3 x4 M.2

Full DDR4 speed support at all levels (unlike intel with their shitty MHz lock for lower end boards)

Decent numbers of fan-headers with atleast 15w per connector (cuz unless you get a higher end intel board, you are severely limited here. Which sucks)

PS2 port

4x Sata3 ports minimum....

None of those are really dependent on the socket/ chipset lol

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I forget that it takes a long time for an architecture, but I would still buy a 6-8 core Zen for 400-500$(If the motherboards are cheap enough)

They'll probably price aggressively, but they sure won't price for cost.

 

If they have a product equivalent to a 5960x (roughly, of course) it'll probably be ~700 or 800, just so they make people who buy 5960x from that point out look like idiots, while still making a load of cash

Yeah totally but it is true chances are the 8 cores will be at least 600 though the 6 cores could be a good deal. However I just remembered that I believe even the fx zen CPUs will only have 16 pcie lanes (the same as Intels consumer line) while the 5820k has 28 and the 5930k and 5960x have 40. This means either amd will need to release a super extreme version of zen to truly compete with Intel extreme edition or they will still need to price it somewhat aggressively to make up for this drawback. Of course for me I don't care at all since most likely I will only use one gpu and only once or twice two but for people buying 5960xs sometimes they also get 3 or 4 Gpus (though it is kinda rare).

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Yeah totally but it is true chances are the 8 cores will be at least 600 though the 6 cores could be a good deal. However I just remembered that I believe even the fx zen CPUs will only have 16 pcie lanes (the same as Intels consumer line) while the 5820k has 28 and the 5930k and 5960x have 40. This means either amd will need to release a super extreme version of zen to truly compete with Intel extreme edition or they will still need to price it somewhat aggressively to make up for this drawback. Of course for me I don't care at all since most likely I will only use one gpu and only once or twice two but for people buying 5960xs sometimes they also get 3 or 4 Gpus (though it is kinda rare).

PLX chips exist you know, it's not that much of a drawback

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PLX chips exist you know, it's not that much of a drawback

Yeah I know but they can introduce some latency into the PC, which for high end users is best avoided. Most likely the mobos that have these will cost a fair bit more (just look at the z170 mobos). Of course since its amd likely it won't be as much as Intel but it's still there. I think they still will need to set their CPUs at a somewhat lower price than intel, but it probably won't be by that much.


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PLX chips exist you know, it's not that much of a drawback

The boards which have them tend to cost $150+ more than comparably specced boards.

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None of those are really dependent on the socket/ chipset lol

you need to read up on a few things here and there. But ok. keep going

 

 

well, ...for me personally what i would want to see from those 99$ AM4 motherboard would be a solid 6 or 8 phase VRM with beefy heatsinks and dual GPU support @ pcie 3.0 x8/x8 (ideally x16/16)

all the rest i don't care...my sata3 ssd is fast enough but yes of course full overclocking options supported on those boards including memory, cpu bus and what not.

it's okay for AMD to have a slightly slower part (let's say within 10% from current intel) but give me a fully featured board for 100$.

as for VRMs... depends on TDP.

I wouldnt mind the low end being 4+1, aslong as they are solid high quality japanese caps. Like the ones used in a FEW 970 AM3+ boards. Although, when you have to dissect a mobo to know whether the quality is sufficient or not, well, thats not cool.

Also, many of the 8+2 boards, both intel and AMD, is actually NOT 8+2, they are 4+1 channel, but running parrellell cap, VRM and choke per channel. So in essence they are "CMT 4+1" :P

But yeah, their still way better then simple 4+1, but nowhere near as good as the real 8+2 setup.

 

Anyway, phase count has little merit in terms of how much potential a board has. Higher phase count does help with stability of the voltage being supplied and how fast it can switch levels. Still, what really matters is the parts the VRM/cap/chokes are made of. Shitty parts and high phase count is still only a mediocre board (IE: MSI 970 Gaming AM3+)

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Source?

I think he's confusing it with Bristol Ridge APUs which are Excavator-based and will only have 16 lanes on-chip. Summit Ridge is Zen FX. Raven Ridge is Zen APUs.

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I think he's confusing it with Bristol Ridge APUs which are Excavator-based and will only have 16 lanes on-chip. Summit Ridge is Zen FX. Raven Ridge is Zen APUs.

 

Source?

My bad, I remembered seeing somewhere that this was so. After further research I realized that actually it is not confirmed but could be up to 64 lanes(way more than intel) allowing 4 gpus to function all in 16x! Holy crap! My bad! Wowz this is even more reason to switch to Zen!


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My bad, I remembered seeing somewhere that this was so. After further research I realized that actually it is not confirmed but could be up to 64 lanes(way more than intel) allowing 4 gpus to function all in 16x! Holy crap! My bad! Wowz this is even more reason to switch to Zen!

Intel already confirmed the same for Skylake-E. Where've you been?


Software Engineer for Suncorp (Australia), Computer Tech Enthusiast, Miami University Graduate, Nerd

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