Tesla pause German gigafactory construction after environmentalists protest cutting trees

[TechyBen]

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Was made.  When was it made? By whom?  Who owned it?  What happened politically and socially in Germany between it being planted and now?

This is the same argument you claimed to back away from earlier.

The problem with the definition of sovereignty of land ownership remains.  There seems to be this assumption that there is some sort of sovereign right based on land ownership, but also that there is NO LIMITATION to this sovereign right.  This strikes me a s pure crap.

The problem with it is what one does on a given piece of land can affect those outside of that piece of land.  Classic example was smokestacks.  Industries built infrastructure which dumped large amounts of pollutants into the air and the nearby citizenry complained that they were being harmed.  The companies didn’t change their behavior.  They didn’t actually reduce the damage they were doing. they just built taller smokestacks which sent the pollutants farther before they landed and hurt people.  The result was acid lakes in Canada.  More people were actually hurt but it took years to prove and was much more difficult.  Still happened though.

 

The one I personally experienced in my youth were sugarbeet tailing ponds in North Dakota.  Companies wanted to do the cheapest thing possible with their industrial waste (in this case sugar beet tailings) so they put them in gigantic artificial lakes and simply left them to rot.

 

The smell permeated large sections of the entire state and made gigantic areas far outside the railing ponds nearly unlivable.  They reduced the quality of huge amounts of property the did not own.
 

Germany is a heavily built country, and forests are rare and highly prized.   That the trees were originally planted as a crop rather than as a park may not matter all that much.  They still do a great deal of carbon fixing.  Something Germans consider critical.   
 

Questions that need to be considered:  how will the change in the status of this area (deforestation in this case) affect land or people OUTSIDE of that area?  IF there is an affect how can it be mitigated?
 

 

On a side note, I feel sorry for the parts of the EU we covered in acid rain, and their forests. On the other side note, they get their own back once a yeah when I can smell and taste their pig farms all the way here!!!

[dizmo]

12 hours ago, maartendc said:

I looked it up, and that 274 ha Audi site is not only a factory, but is their main corporate headquarters, main RnD centers, also includes a museum, customer service center, arthouse cinema, restaurants, etc. It employs 44,000 people. 44,000!!! If this Tesla factory only employs 4000 people, they are using 0,023 ha per employee, versus 0,006 ha per employee for Audi. So in that respect, they are using almost 4 times more space than Audi. I know, this comparison is imperfect, as a factory floor takes more space than an RnD office, but your comparison about number of cars produced on the site is just as imperfect.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_Forum_Ingolstadt

https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/ingolstadt-headquarters-195

 

And my main point was not the exact number of the space, rather that they chose to plan it in a forest. Because it is cheap. It is cheap to cut down a bunch of trees, clear the site and build, rather than actually doing proper planning, looking for a postindustrial site somewhere that would need brownfield cleanup, and then actually do something useful with it. Also, the fact that it is a planted forest is irrelevant. Almost ALL forests in Europe at this point have had some human intervention. So we should just deforest everything?

 

Europe, Germany included, is littered with postindustrial sites from coal mining, steel mills, etc. that have since closed or moved overseas. These are perfectly suited to build a factory. It is just more expensive, because you have to clean the soil / site first.

 

And if you think the government has looked at all the angles and done 'proper planning' together with Tesla, think again. The government is only seeing the jobs, not the impact on the environment. Time and time again, governments, also in Europe, give way too much benefit to large corporations, against the long term public interest. Time and again, projects have been greenlit all the way until someone actually does an environmental assessment, and looks at alternatives. (which supposedly they are doing now). Note that the German government is pausing the project. IF they already did their due diligence on environmental assessment and looking at alternatives, THEN why pause it now?

 

I am fully in favor of delaying this factory until all the alternatives have been assessed. IF it turns out there are no alternatives, I have no objection to building this factory. But the way this is unfolding, shows that they have not done their homework.

They have multiple office buildings as you said, so obviously their density will be higher....it also takes up 3x the land. So. There's that.

 

So you're just going to completely ignore the fact that Musk worked with an environmental group and planned out planting 3x the number of trees as he's tearing down, within the region...and at that, trees that will do a better job of c02 reduction and oxygen production? While at the same time producing vehicles that will reduce emissions? Seems pretty short sighted.

 

If you're an urban planner as you say, then you know that there's more to it than just plunking down somewhere there's space. You have to factor in workers, how you're going to get your vehicles to and from, how far it is from ports, how you're getting your resources, etc. There's a reason they chose that site. They didn't just pick it because it's the cheapest. It's also not the first time an automaker has chosen that spot; BMW wanted to build a plant there as well, however they weren't willing to plant the trees they'd displace so it didn't pass public approval.

11 hours ago, Phill104 said:

I am not suggesting it is right for everyone. My job is easy, most people on site work shifts or as developers can work from home or pick their time. I tend to turn in about 10ish to avoid the morning traffic. Small changes make a big difference. Let’s look at a big factory near me that produces vans as another example. The main workforce, and it was the same when the site was 20times the size producing cars too, work a three shift pattern covering the whole 24hrs. As it stands, one shift starts at 9 causing a lot of traffic in the area., same when that shift finishes. It would not be hard at all to adjust those times, start the shift at 11 and roll the three shifts from there. Factory is still open 24/7, still producing in exactly the same way but a large amount of traffic is taken out of the normal rush hour. If companies in an area can work together the daily commute could be made a lot easier resulting in a happier and probably more productive workforce as a result. It can happen, and has already in some industries. Take Amazon as an example, they operate all sorts of shifts in their warehouses which results in a big spread of traffic rather than it all hitting at one point. 

You're still choosing industries that work on a 24hr schedule, or ones that aren't as dependent on other companies to conduct operations.

Most people aren't going to be willing to work an 7pm - 3am shift. So no, you wouldn't have a happier workforce at all.

Amazon is a real beacon of happy workers, isn't it? /s

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, dizmo said:

You're still choosing industries that work on a 24hr schedule, or ones that aren't as dependent on other companies to conduct operations.

Most people aren't going to be willing to work an 7pm - 3am shift. So no, you wouldn't have a happier workforce at all.

Amazon is a real beacon of happy workers, isn't it? /s

I used to work for a mid sized manufacturing company,  The only time we had shifts was when demand wen through the roof and they had to operate pre-production in 3x 8 shifts.  Other than that the entire company works the same hours and takes the same holidays because if they didn't production would fail.  I know this is more than just mid and large scale manufacturing too.  Many manufactures are using a "just in time" method of supply chain.  Where only the parts that are needed are made/delivered and stocked.  It makes for a much more productive process however it means that you have to run everything very efficiently,  any unplanned change to labor hours (having less than 90% of your workforce in any one given time) can cripple production.

[Reytime]

They'll probably green light the construction once Volkswagen & BMW groups have caught up with EV tech/production.

[RonnieOP]

1 hour ago, dizmo said:

You're still choosing industries that work on a 24hr schedule, or ones that aren't as dependent on other companies to conduct operations.

Most people aren't going to be willing to work an 7pm - 3am shift. So no, you wouldn't have a happier workforce at all.

Amazon is a real beacon of happy workers, isn't it? /s

Plenty of people are willing to work night shifts. Millions of them in the US alone.

 

I worked the graveyard shift at a beer warehouse for over a year. Was one of the best jobs ive ever had and surprisingly it was a shift you had to fight to get.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, dizmo said:

.

You're still choosing industries that work on a 24hr schedule, or ones that aren't as dependent on other companies to conduct operations.

Most people aren't going to be willing to work an 7pm - 3am shift. So no, you wouldn't have a happier workforce at all.

Amazon is a real beacon of happy workers, isn't it? /s

I am, but that is one example. In that town it would take a few thousand card off the road during the rush hour.  There are other companies that can do the same and it all helps spread the rush hour. There are plenty of businesses that can adjust with no effect on their ability to operate. In fact, plenty are changing that way here in the UK.

 

As for Amazon, I totally agree. Zero hour contracts especially are a particularly annoying thing as it absolves the employer of almost all responsibility for their employee.

[maartendc]

8 hours ago, dizmo said:

If you're an urban planner as you say, then you know that there's more to it than just plunking down somewhere there's space.

Exactly, which is why I said:

 

21 hours ago, maartendc said:

 

I am fully in favor of delaying this factory until all the alternatives have been assessed. IF it turns out there are no alternatives, I have no objection to building this factory. But the way this is unfolding, shows that they have not done their homework.

[RonnieOP]

9 hours ago, maartendc said:

Exactly, which is why I said:

 

But from what I can tell this has nothing to do with someone not doing their homework.

 

Its just some activists who filed an appeal with the court and they paused the construction until they could hear the appeal. Its not the German government halting the plans because they want to. They are just following the legal procedures for the activists appeals.

 

And since the local government already gave them the go ahead I wouldnt be surprised if they look at the complaint and let them get right back to construction.

[Bombastinator]

23 hours ago, TechyBen said:

On a side note, I feel sorry for the parts of the EU we covered in acid rain, and their forests. On the other side note, they get their own back once a yeah when I can smell and taste their pig farms all the way here!!!

Pollution is pollution.  Companies all seem to want to spread their nasty outside the confines of their property while saying no one should have a say in what they do on their property because it’s their property.  People need to be responsible for the problems they produce.