foxconn forced schoolchildren to work overtime/overnight illegally

[yolosnail]

9 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

If Foxconn, or the school, isn't telling the students' their rights, that's force. 

But from what I read of the story, the students are well aware of their rights, but they are allowing the Foxconn and their school to break the law by agreeing to work the overtime. 

He says “I had no choice, I could only endure this.”, but in reality he did have a choice, he could have said no, and not graduated.

3 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

 

 

Well... I gave you the definition of a word, in english, which you should be able to understand, you seemingly living in the UK...

 

If you manage to sweep away the meaning of a word from your own language and discuss the point that a person who is given no choice, still has a choice, then... what can I say... "Stay in Wonderland", maybe? You chose the red pill ^o^

 

If you've worked everyday for more than ten hours doing a gruelling and tedious job, going back in a dormitory to get some rest in the very company where you spend all your day and then being told that you need to do the night shifts too.

Just try to image in which kind of state you are, how much "active choice" you are able to make.

Not much!

 

The beauty of the English language is that everything is up for interpretation. Everything depends on context. Coerce may well be a synonym of force, but it doesn't mean the two mean the same.

 

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

it does remove a lot choice from the situation.   

It may remove a lot of the choice, but there is still a choice. Even if it's a difficult choice to make

[mr moose]

Just now, Blademaster91 said:

 

I agree that you can't totally boycott the company though they were arguing voting with your wallet by buying used, which IMO is still doing something as you aren't directly supporting the company.

If everyone bought used the economy would collapse in a spectacular fashion making 2008 looking like you lost a few coins through a hole in your pocket.

 

 

[ARikozuM]

Just now, Blademaster91 said:

They aren't being forced to, but not being able to participate in internships and affecting their graduation and scholarships, I would say that would affect wellbeing if they aren't able to graduate and get a job at one of the largest factories in China.

I agree that you can't totally boycott the company though they were arguing voting with your wallet by buying used, which IMO is still doing something as you aren't directly supporting the company.

The major problem to that is this is Foxconn. They supply about 30% of all electronics (last I checked a few years ago). This means that no matter who you're buying from, you're more likely to be buying something from Foxconn indirectly. 

[wANKER]

32 minutes ago, Cora_Lie said:

 

HUM... When someone tells you : "If you don't work, you will be forced to resign automagically! No work? No internship! No internship? Impossible to get a diploma ! No diploma ? Bye bye your dreams of a better life!"

How do you call that? By my book that's coercion! Synonym of coercion? "Force".

 

Why shouldn't he use this word again?

Forced implies they have no option. 

They do. 

To not work there. 

 

Not working there being the lesser option, does not mean they don't have an option. Ultimately, they do. 

 

EDIT: 'Forced' is being used simply for clickbait effect and to pimp the story up. 

[ARikozuM]

1 minute ago, yolosnail said:

But from what I read of the story, the students are well aware of their rights, but they are allowing the Foxconn and their school to break the law by agreeing to work the overtime. 

He says “I had no choice, I could only endure this.”, but in reality he did have a choice, he could have said no, and not graduated.

You have to take this in context of China. No graduation means no life. The systems are built in an authoritative manner to suppress any and all individualism, unless you're rich. 

[Tristerin]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You are arguing to vote with your wallet, I.E don't buy products made by this company.  That's impossible with foxconn.

In fact a brief look at history shows that you will never change a companies practices by voting with your wallet, at best they'll drop a feature or update a product.  

 

Nestle is close to the largest food company on the planet and it has had a very large and well organized boycott (as far as boycott go) running against it since the 80's.  All it has done is bring them more PR.

Not impossible, highly difficult if you are attached to a screen or electronic.  Either way, voting by limiting for lifestyle is still voting.

 

A brief look is all we have to look at with modern corporations.  If someone feels like something a company is doing something against what they "actually believe in" this boycott isn't as hard as it sounds.  Again, if all the "voices" did this, my belief is that it would force change.  Others believe talking about it and making sure others hear about it is enough or going to force change.  I disagree with that, that it is "enough" - simply because its virtue signaling. 

 

vir·tue sig·nal·ing

noun

noun: virtue signalling; noun: virtue signaling

1. the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

    

    

    

[mr moose]

Just now, yolosnail said:

But from what I read of the story, the students are well aware of their rights, but they are allowing the Foxconn and their school to break the law by agreeing to work the overtime. 

He says “I had no choice, I could only endure this.”, but in reality he did have a choice, he could have said no, and not graduated.

The beauty of the English language is that everything is up for interpretation. Everything depends on context. Coerce may well be a synonym of force, but it doesn't mean the two mean the same.

 

It may remove a lot of the choice, but there is still a choice. Even if it's a difficult choice to make

 

No one actively choose to be exploited.   

 

If I held a gun to you and said it snails or I'll shoot you in the foot,  you don't have a choice,  a choice would be to do neither, being forced to pick between to horrible events is not a choice, its forced.  

 

You appear to be stuck on a semantic that is contextually inaccurate.

[79wjd]

8 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Although in fairness if you have the weight of the school, government and potential only employment option telling you to do it or your chances of getting a job are non existent,  it does remove a lot choice from the situation.   

I'm not saying they had a better choice; they didn't. It absolutely is a shitty situation that shouldn't have ever been allowed to happen.

 

But they did technically have a choice, it's just that the alternative option had far greater long lasting negative ramifications.

[mr moose]

Just now, Tristerin said:

Not impossible, highly difficult if you are attached to a screen or electronic.  Either way, voting by limiting for lifestyle is still voting.

 

A brief look is all we have to look at with modern corporations.  If someone feels like something a company is doing something against what they "actually believe in" this boycott isn't as hard as it sounds.  Again, if all the "voices" did this, my belief is that it would force change.  Others believe talking about it and making sure others hear about it is enough or going to force change.  I disagree with that, that it is "enough" - simply because its virtue signaling. 

 

vir·tue sig·nal·ing

noun

noun: virtue signalling; noun: virtue signaling

1. the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

    

    

    

 

As I pointed out, one of the best organized and largest boycotts in history (started in 1977 and is still going today) didn't stop the company becoming one of the largest. In fact it may even have helped.  Virtue signaling is a company taking an interest in what they do, it's just another marketing stunt,  they'll tell you your coffee is humane while whipping the African labor mules to pack it.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, 79wjd said:

I'm not saying they had a better choice; they didn't. It absolutely is a shitty situation that shouldn't have ever been allowed to happen.

 

But they did technically have a choice, it's just that the alternative option had far greater long lasting negative ramifications.

I don't think there is much room in this for semantics,  some people don't seem to be able to understand the gravity of the situation let alone how to be conscious about it while they are digging for reasons to dismiss it as even being a problem.

[Guest]

LOL! In fact... Now for sure I know You're not British, the both of you, you're Wannabe Frenchies! The only country who as a symbol has an animal who can sing in full glory while standing in deep shit!

Spoiler

 

[yolosnail]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

No one actively choose to be exploited.   

 

If I held a gun to you and said it snails or I'll shoot you in the foot,  you don't have a choice,  a choice would be to do neither, being forced to pick between to horrible events is not a choice, its forced.  

 

You appear to be stuck on a semantic that is contextually inaccurate.

Yes, that might be the case, but in the context of this story, Foxconn are not FORCING people to work overtime. They are forcing them to make a choice to work overtime. That is a fundamentally different thing. 

 

[Tristerin]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

As I pointed out, one of the best organized and largest boycotts in history (started in 1977 and is still going today) didn't stop the company becoming one of the largest. In fact it may even have helped.  Virtue signaling is a company taking an interest in what they do, it's just another marketing stunt,  they'll tell you your coffee is humane while whipping the African labor mules to pack it.

Not sure what that last sentence means, doesn't make sense.

 

To that point, if someone cares - truly cares - they can make a difference in their own life based on their own morals.  Or just tell everyone how morally superior they are with their ability to be virtuous all while drinking their slave coffee, wearing their blood diamonds, and playing on their Foxxconn produced widget.

 

At least, and this is what is important to me whether anyone agrees, is that I am not conflating myself or my views to look favorable to the masses because a topic could be "hot"

 

Ill continue to vote where I care, on the issues I care about, with my wallet and laugh when people feign (because its pretending when they actually continue to perpetuate the issue) caring about a situation that is grim.

[spartaman64]

1 hour ago, wANKER said:

'Forced' is an extremely sketchy word there OP. I'd consider revising.

 

52 minutes ago, yolosnail said:

Exactly my thought, they weren't 'forced' into it, more like blackmailed because they were told if they didn't do it, they'd lose their job.

 

41 minutes ago, yolosnail said:

Because that's still not forcing them.

They aren't doing it against their will, they are making an active choice to prioritise their education over their wellbeing. 

If they wanted to, they could say no, but they didn't. 

That is not being forced

their school requires them to take an internship or else they wont graduate. i guess they can choose to not do it and not get a high school diploma but that would lead to them having significantly less opportunities in the future not to mention their parents will probably beat the absolute crap out of them

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

Not sure what that last sentence means, doesn't make sense.

It means companies will tell you anything to get a sale, you can't meaningfully boycott dodgy companies.

 

2 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

To that point, if someone cares - truly cares - they can make a difference in their own life based on their own morals.  Or just tell everyone how morally superior they are with their ability to be virtuous all while drinking their slave coffee, wearing their blood diamonds, and playing on their Foxxconn produced widget.

So stop using your computer, it has foxconn parts in it, and your phone, and the power meter at your  house and business.  Don't use anything related to the internet because all ISP's upgrade their tech with foxconn parts,  tell everyone how virtuous you are while living as a hermit under a tree eating dirt.   

 

Or  you could just accept there is  no way around it and join in the attempts to raise its awareness.  Seeing as very little other actuation will actually do anything.

 

[wANKER]

2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

 

 

their school requires them to take an internship or else they wont graduate. i guess they can choose to not do it and not get a high school diploma but that would lead to them having significantly less opportunities in the future not to mention their parents will probably beat the absolute crap out of them

Therefore they have a choice. 

 

I have, on several occasions, knocked my own career path back due to telling managers to fuck off and taking stands against shit like this. I wasn't forced. 

 

EDIT: My argument wasn't even about the definition of the word, it was on the basis that it was used to try and beef the article up and get a bit of clickbait effect, and make it seem as though it's some slave labour going on. 

When in reality, it's some 16-18 year olds having to work a few extra hours. (which I don't agree with foxconn doing)

Oh, and the 'bright lights' 

[yolosnail]

1 minute ago, spartaman64 said:

their school requires them to take an internship or else they wont graduate. i guess they can choose to not do it and not get a high school diploma but that would lead to them having significantly less opportunities in the future not to mention their parents will probably beat the absolute crap out of them

But like I've said time and time again, it's still a choice.

Sure, it's a shitty choice, but a choice nonetheless.

Therefore Foxconn did not force them to work the overtime

[spartaman64]

1 minute ago, wANKER said:

Therefore they have a choice. 

 

I have, on several occasions, knocked my own career path back due to telling managers to fuck off and taking stands against shit like this. I wasn't forced. 

 

Just now, yolosnail said:

But like I've said time and time again, it's still a choice.

Sure, it's a shitty choice, but a choice nonetheless.

Therefore Foxconn did not force them to work the overtime

thats like saying slaves technically have a choice. they can choose to die

[Guest]

Oh... but here you have it...

 

How many foxconn employees prefered to commit suicide because they just couldn't go on living like that, and they couldn't leave either. SO they made the jump...

And what did Foxconn? Make it easy for them? No... They put NETS!

 

They couldn't even decide to die...

 

Slaves... by your own definition!

[Tristerin]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So stop using your computer, it has foxconn parts in it, and your phone, and the power meter at your  house and business.  Don't use anything related to the internet because all ISP's upgrade their tech with foxconn parts,  tell everyone how virtuous you are while living as a hermit under a tree eating dirt.   

 

Or  you could just accept there is  no way around it and join in the attempts to raise its awareness.  Seeing as very little other actuation will actually do anything.

 

Me since first post and every post after and this being the THIRD time repeating this:

I don't care, if I did I would boycott, but I don't - I will be buying more and more of these products.  It pangs my conscience but not enough to care.  Because my hobbies help ME through the BS of life and electronics are one of my hobbies.

 

I never once espoused being MORE virtuous than others as I haven't signaled anything.  Keep looking for a reason to disagree with me here but Im not sure why - I guess you read one snippet and ran with it?

 

I have accepted it - I don't care either. 

 

The difference though is that in your last sentence you believe nothing produces something.  That's a Winnie the Poo thing, not reality.  When I choose to actuate my support or lack of support powers, however little the impact - is an impact.  The impact may be a grain of sand - but its my grain of sand and Ive stood by it.  Means a lot of everything to me, which is enough.

[mr moose]

No wonder the world is so fucked up.   It's not choice its oppression.  Choice would be to say no, I will only work 4 hours and go to school 4 hours and then have people let you do it without consequence.  

 

When someone blackmails you into doing something, you are not choosing anything, you are being forced against your will to carry out an activity or suffer unfair and very intentional consequences.   That is not free or fair and to continue to argue it is simply a choice is to be very disingenuous with the situation.

[spartaman64]

5 minutes ago, yolosnail said:

Then if I'm being brutally honest you should make a choice and get better parents

im in the US and if i really wanted to i could have made that choice but i dont think child protective services are much of a thing in china

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, wANKER said:

Yep. 

 

Except that is a separate case to the one being discussed. 

 

So what's your point? 

Eventually maybe this

 

FoxConn = Slave Master who considers is employees as slaves

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Tristerin said:

Me since first post and every post after and this being the THIRD time repeating this:

I don't care, if I did I would boycott, but I don't - I will be buying more and more of these products.  It pangs my conscience but not enough to care.  Because my hobbies help ME through the BS of life and electronics are one of my hobbies.

 

I never once espoused being MORE virtuous than others as I haven't signaled anything.  Keep looking for a reason to disagree with me here but Im not sure why - I guess you read one snippet and ran with it?

 

I have accepted it - I don't care either. 

 

The difference though is that in your last sentence you believe nothing produces something.  That's a Winnie the Poo thing, not reality.  When I choose to actuate my support or lack of support powers, however little the impact - is an impact.  The impact may be a grain of sand - but its my grain of sand and Ive stood by it.  Means a lot of everything to me, which is enough.

Then stop telling people if they truly cared they would "vote with their wallet".

 

 

 

 

[yolosnail]

4 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

Me since first post and every post after and this being the THIRD time repeating this:

I don't care, if I did I would boycott, but I don't - I will be buying more and more of these products.  It pangs my conscience but not enough to care.  Because my hobbies help ME through the BS of life and electronics are one of my hobbies.

 

I never once espoused being MORE virtuous than others as I haven't signaled anything.  Keep looking for a reason to disagree with me here but Im not sure why - I guess you read one snippet and ran with it?

 

I have accepted it - I don't care either. 

 

The difference though is that in your last sentence you believe nothing produces something.  That's a Winnie the Poo thing, not reality.  When I choose to actuate my support or lack of support powers, however little the impact - is an impact.  The impact may be a grain of sand - but its my grain of sand and Ive stood by it.  Means a lot of everything to me, which is enough.

So essentially what you're saying is "If someone else suffers to make me happier, i don't care"

And if you say that, then I don't necessarily disagree