Are you religious?

[.:MARK:.]

Don't care, people are people, religious differences are meaningless these days...

[Advent]

Don't care, people are people, religious differences are meaningless these days...

Except when they encroach upon others freedoms, incite genocide/bloodshed or promote bigotry and hatred. Other than that, I agree.

[Tr3vor]

Computerism

 

 

 

PC MASTER RACE

[Advent]

Computerism

 

 

PC MASTER RACE

[Tr3vor]

 

Assimilate or die.

[ManOfDisguise]

oh noes here we go again...

[Tr3vor]

After reading through this thread the first thing I'd like to say to each in every one of you is this. You are all fucking religious. If you try and argue against it then you are a moron. Traditionally speaking, you might not be religious as the tradition views on religion involve a god and shit. However, in the real world (this wikipedia entry) there is more to a religion to a god, so technically speaking, each and every one of you (including me) are religious and thus we shouldn't argue against it.

 

In keep with the actual topic of some of the thread, I'm going to give you what I think. I think of a lot of the traditional religions, like Christianity or Islam for example, are fucking stupid. They use books and ideologies that hundreds of years old and only now due to pressure from outside sources are they actually trying to be accepting of everybody. To word that differently, traditional religions are hundreds of years old written and come from the horrible depths of patriarchy so their ideas and just out of date and have no place in the world.

 

I'm hoping that as we evolve as a society we can grow away from these horrible meta-narratives like religion, communism, facism, capitalism and others that we have seen in world since the dawn of time.

 

There is no religion, there is only steam 

 

[Advent]

There is no religion, there is only Zuul

Fixed that for you.

[Vitalius]

Being a Homosexual doesn't hurt anyone, but being a Psychopath does. Please stop using logical fallacies to justify your bigotry. It isn't the same thing at all.

Oh, it isn't bigotry, and I would say it "hurts" God. Not that God can be hurt, but that His Creation is rebelling against Him. Which most certainly hurts our relationship with Him.

It's effectively the same thing, as I sincerely believe it hurts our society. 

Regardless, I am a homophobe. I mean that the same way you would say arachnophobe. A phobia is an irrational & strong fear. It is not logical. And it is not taught. 

I have 3 phobias. Arachnophobia (fear of spiders), Acrophobia (fear of heights), and homophobia which is obvious.

When I realize I am near a gay person, my response is immediate fight or flight. Why? No idea. But it is literal. I either want to destroy them or get as far away as fast as possible or some weird complex version of both. 

No one taught me to be this way. It's just how I am.

Equality right?

[QcDExtreme]

what if i worship the sith? ALL HAIL DARTH MAUL!!!!!!

[Advent]

Oh, it isn't bigotry, and I would say it "hurts" God. Not that God can be hurt, but that His Creation is rebelling against Him. Which most certainly hurts our relationship with Him.

It's effectively the same thing, as I sincerely believe it hurts our society. 

Regardless, I am a homophobe. I mean that the same way you would say arachnophobe. A phobia is an irrational & strong fear. It is not logical. And it is not taught. 

I have 3 phobias. Arachnophobia (fear of spiders), Acrophobia (fear of heights), and homophobia which is obvious.

When I realize I am near a gay person, my response is immediate fight or flight. Why? No idea. But it is literal. I either want to destroy them or get as far away as fast as possible or some weird complex version of both. 

No one taught me to be this way. It's just how I am.

Equality right?

Then if you are a self-professed Homophone don't use your scripture to justify it. Just come out and say it (which you did).

And again, I ask you: If you are going to cite rebelling against God and it hurting our relationship with them then why aren't you/others harping on all the other 67 sins in the NT (most of which are not enforced)? Why the distinction?

As to Homosexuality hurting society: How? How can 2 consenting adults who's only wish is to be treaty equally when they are harming no one, who wish to be able to live their lives together and love each other be harmful to society? How is love and equality harmful?

This isn't some "slippery slope, x leads to y, y leads to z" acceptance argument. Homosexuals are not a fringe element of society. They exist everywhere in the world.

[FileCorrupted]

Oh, it isn't bigotry, and I would say it "hurts" God. Not that God can be hurt, but that His Creation is rebelling against Him. Which most certainly hurts our relationship with Him.

It's effectively the same thing, as I sincerely believe it hurts our society. 

Regardless, I am a homophobe. I mean that the same way you would say arachnophobe. A phobia is an irrational & strong fear. It is not logical. And it is not taught. 

I have 3 phobias. Arachnophobia (fear of spiders), Acrophobia (fear of heights), and homophobia which is obvious.

When I realize I am near a gay person, my response is immediate fight or flight. Why? No idea. But it is literal. I either want to destroy them or get as far away as fast as possible or some weird complex version of both. 

No one taught me to be this way. It's just how I am.

Equality right?

"god sent the gays to deal with OVER POPULATION Boy did that go well" - Bo Burnham 2013

 

Linus was right this is just going to end badly lets just end it here okay, answer the poll and move on.

[Whiskers]

Oh, it isn't bigotry, and I would say it "hurts" God. Not that God can be hurt, but that His Creation is rebelling against Him. Which most certainly hurts our relationship with Him.

It's effectively the same thing, as I sincerely believe it hurts our society. 

Regardless, I am a homophobe. I mean that the same way you would say arachnophobe. A phobia is an irrational & strong fear. It is not logical. And it is not taught. 

I have 3 phobias. Arachnophobia (fear of spiders), Acrophobia (fear of heights), and homophobia which is obvious.

When I realize I am near a gay person, my response is immediate fight or flight. Why? No idea. But it is literal. I either want to destroy them or get as far away as fast as possible or some weird complex version of both. 

No one taught me to be this way. It's just how I am.

Equality right?

 

I don't mean to offend, but please try to use fewer paragraphs. You needn't spread your posts out so much - it makes it difficult to read.

 

Homosexual people are not such through choice. They are born as a homosexual, they live as a homosexual and they die as a homosexual. Sexuality may be fluid and certain individuals may have witnessed a change in their sexuality in their life - however that does not make it an outright 'choice'. Your hair turns grey or white as you age, that does not make it a choice.

 

I must ask, have you ever known any homosexual people? And by know I do not mean fleetingly met, or those you met with the existing understanding that they were homosexual. Have you ever known one of your friends or family to be homosexual?

[Vitalius]

Then if you are a self-professed Homophone don't use your scripture to justify it. Just come out and say it (which you did).

And again, I ask you: If you are going to cite rebelling against God and it hurting our relationship with them then why aren't you/others harping on all the other 67 sins in the NT (most of which are not enforced)? Why the distinction?

As to Homosexuality hurting society? How?

... My homophobia is unrelated to the scripture saying it's a sin. 

See, now you are not even making sense. Among those 67 sins is murder. Oh yeah. Totally not enforced. I get that I'm cherry picking here, but my Goodness. 

The distinction? The exact word used to describe homosexuality is an abomination in the old testament. And abomination is "that which is without God". That's essentially a special kind of Sin. In that it is rebellion against the very nature God gave us (apparently). That's one reason it is "different", I suppose. The other is that a lot of other cultures share in our disdain for such things. Or they did. Which makes it easier to be against when (once) a lot of people were on your side. 

I suppose the simple reason is that "it's easy". You have to remember, a lot of Christians are the type that just do it out of habit. They don't really live it. "Narrow is the gate" and all that. I'm against it because it's a sin. I don't need any other reason imo. I'm against those other sins as well. But this discussion naturally lead to homosexuality due to it being a hot topic in our time. 

And to be perfectly honest, I've probably committed some of them in this very conversation. That is due to my own negligence (I don't know the Bible front to back), and quite a few other things. But in the face of that, I will still keep seeking Him. And in that try and correct myself accordingly. Because even considering that, I am not damned. That's sort of the point. Though man should sin, if he should seek God and to change his ways, God will show mercy. We will either follow Him, or we won't. Stumbling along the way is actually part of the journey.

If something is to separate us or directly go between humanity and God, how can that not hurt us?  

 

I don't mean to offend, but please try to use fewer paragraphs. You needn't spread your posts out so much - it makes it difficult to read.

 

Homosexual people are not such through choice. They are born as a homosexual, they live as a homosexual and they die as a homosexual. Sexuality may be fluid and certain individuals may have witnessed a change in their sexuality in their life - however that does not make it an outright 'choice'. Your hair turns grey or white as you age, that does not make it a choice.

 

I must ask, have you ever known any homosexual people? And by know I do not mean fleetingly met, or those you met with the existing understanding that they were homosexual. Have you ever known one of your friends or family to be homosexual?

I try to separate them by subject. Sorry. Or what I'm responding to.

Your hair doesn't decide what you actively physically do of your own accord. Apples to oranges. In no way can sex be involuntary unless it's rape. It's a choice. And nothing can convince me otherwise. I say that certainly because I have actively looked. And yet I find nothing. I decide where my genitalia goes. It's actually that simple. 

Yes. A few. My friend in high school that I grew up with almost my entire school life came out as homosexual right after high school graduation. He always acted feminine, but I'm the type not to assume. He either would be or wouldn't. I don't let my mind make assumptions like that when possible. 

[_ASSASSIN_]

Homosexual people are not such through choice. They are born as a homosexual, they live as a homosexual and they die as a homosexual. Sexuality may be fluid and certain individuals may have witnessed a change in their sexuality in their life - however that does not make it an outright 'choice'. Your hair turns grey or white as you age, that does not make it a choice.

 

I must ask, have you ever known any homosexual people? And by know I do not mean fleetingly met, or those you met with the existing understanding that they were homosexual. Have you ever known one of your friends or family to be homosexual?

yep, it's a common misconception, it's actually genetic.

[Advent]

If something is to separate us or directly go between humanity and God, how can that not hurt us?  

 

It isn't your job/place to judge that. Take care of you, love thy neighbor, turn thy cheek and keep your own door step clean less you throw rocks in your glass house.

Do you also believe "I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent." Timothy 2:11? Since Jesus came to fulfill the law (OT) then the OT laws are still valid, yes?

Where do you draw the line?

In today's society women are seen as equal (or attempting to be), they teach, they instruct men, they even have positions of power above men (in the work place etc). Is this harmful to society? It goes against God's will. Is it not keeping us from God?

Should we still own slaves too? What about selling our daughters for a sum of silver?

My point being is that society has advanced past these religious ideologies (in most countries). And so too has Religion. So too should we move past the ideology against Homosexuality. Even the Pope says

If you support the scripture for your bias then you must either support all of it including the above passages or you are a hypocrite who cherry picks based upon their prejudice.

I think you use your God and religious beliefs as a backdrop to give your "phobia" credence. Out of fear of how people will treat you or judge you if you have nothing backing your way of thinking except yourself. You believe that if you aren't backed up by some higher power that you will look either foolish or a bigot.

Or maybe you don't.

I don't say any of this to be mean, I am just trying to get you to question things. To really dig deep and ask yourself if this is right. To challenge your preconceptions, which you appear to have difficulty doing.

To everyone else:

I am greatful we were able to keep this civil. It appears the topic is winding down now. Thank you all for participating.

 

[LOST TALE]

You can go about telling them this in a tactful manner. No need to go about it the way you and the other guy are.

no personal attacks in there, atleast not direct.

[1funnygame]

Except when they encroach upon others freedoms, incite genocide/bloodshed or promote bigotry and hatred. Other than that, I agree.

people will always partake in encroaching upon others freedoms, incite genocide/bloodshed or promote bigotry and hatred its human nature even if religion was completely destroyed i highly doubt any of that will stop or even lessen

[1funnygame]

No need for that. (；一_一)

edited

[Ja Krispie]

It isn't your job/place to judge that. Take care of you, love thy neighbor, turn thy cheek and keep your own door step clean less you throw rocks in your glass house.

Do you also believe "I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent." Timothy 2:11? Since Jesus came to fulfill the law (OT) then the OT laws are still valid, yes?

Where do you draw the line?

In today's society women are seen as equal (or attempting to be), they teach, they instruct men, they even have positions of power above men (in the work place etc). Is this harmful to society? It goes against God's will. Is it not keeping us from God?

Should we still own slaves too? What about selling our daughters for a sum of silver?

My point being is that society has advanced past these religious ideologies (in most countries). And so too has Religion. So too should we move past the ideology against Homosexuality. Even the Pope says

If you support the scripture for your bias then you must either support all of it including the above passages or you are a hypocrite who cherry picks based upon their prejudice.

I think you use your God and religious beliefs as a backdrop to give your "phobia" credence. Out of fear of how people will treat you or judge you if you have nothing backing your way of thinking except yourself. You believe that if you aren't backed up by some higher power that you will look either foolish or a bigot.

Or maybe you don't.

I don't say any of this to be mean, I am just trying to get you to question things. To really dig deep and ask yourself if this is right. To challenge your preconceptions, which you appear to have difficulty doing.

To everyone else:

I am grateful we were able to keep this civil. It appears the topic is winding down now. Thank you all for participating.

 

 

If you read ALL of timothy chapter 2, these are instructions for worship, not outside of worship in the workplace. A lot of what your saying is taking out of context, and being used against the meaning of the scripture. Slaves in the bible in which it describes gives clear instructions to the owners in care. People were to sell themselves as slaves to pay a debt and leave once it's repaid. It's not referring to slavery in taking people and forcing them against their will. In the old testament if people were captured and sold as slaves, then the person who sold them was to be put too death. While I cannot explain every single verse of the bible, Jesus was sent to fulfill the old testament and bring in a new way to worship. Those times were different, Slaves were owned, and still had rights according to the word. Keep in mind the Pope doesn't speak for all Christians. I do believe the word, and support the bible as it is written.

[Advent]

If you read ALL of timothy chapter 2, these are instructions for worship, not outside of worship in the workplace.

Oh really? Timothy Chapter 2:

 

 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."

Clearly this is misogynistic. So because Adam (man) was created before Eve (women) he is above them. Women are the root of sin (why not man? Because man was "king" when the Bible was written) so they can only be saved through childbearing, faith, love, holiness and propriety.

Propriety refers to how she is expected to act under her husband.

 

Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

 

More subservience.

 

Ephesians 5:22 "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord".

Man serves under the Lord and so too shall the wife serve under her Husband in like fashion.

 

 

 

A lot of what your saying is taking out of context, and being used against the meaning of the scripture.

Nothing is being taken out of context. Slavery is slavery. Subservience in regards to women is subservience.

 

 

Slaves in the bible in which it describes gives clear instructions to the owners in care.

And as to slaves and the instructions for the owner....They are still slaves. The Bible condones slavery. You don't put caveats on it. Slavery is slavery. I don't care if they lived in nice conditions and had rights. You do not own another human being. Period. That is the same kind of logic that the nice plantation owners used to justify the continuance of slavery in America. "Oh we treat them nice, let them marry, 'own' property", we 'pay' them". They are still slaves.

 

 

People were to sell themselves as slaves to pay a debt and leave once it's repaid. It's not referring to slavery in taking people and forcing them against their will.

Oh really? Genesis 34:13-29 deals with the sacking of a city by The Israelites. They kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.

There are other examples of people being taken as spoils of war against their will. I've read the Bible many times. Multiple versions too.

The simple fact is this:

The Bible is rife with historically dated values that was perfectly ok given the context of the day. It is not ok today. It is also rife with contradictions too. Goliath was killed.. what... twice? Genesis 1 and 2 have differing creation stories, the Ark animals were 1 pair or 7 pair? How long was Christ in Jerusalem? A few days or a year (Gospel of John vs others). The book is over 2,000 years old. Translated from Aramaic and Greek into Latin and other languages. It was butchered at the Council of Nicaea by Justinian (for his own devices) and further butchered during the Reformation.

While I agree the message the Jesus taught about love, acceptance and good morals is great, there are many aspects of the Bible that are not practiced today and yet people still cling to parts of it to justify their bigotry. You can defend it all you want but I don't see you bitching about people cutting their hair, wearing mixed fiber clothing, planting 2 or more crops in the same field, eating shellfish (an Abomination), working on the Sabbath, divorce, tattoos etc.

The one thing religious people cling to fervently is a few scant verses against Homosexuality. I am glad to note that this is slowly dieing out. Even the Pope has said to knock that shit off and stop relying on zealous dogma, ""Who am I to judge them if they're seeking the Lord in good faith?" he said. Hopefully in 50-a few hundred years people will stop using it to justify their fear/hatred/bigotry.

[Vitalius]

Oh really? Timothy Chapter 2:

 

 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."

Clearly this is misogynistic. So because Adam (man) was created before Eve (women) he is above them. Women are the root of sin (why not man? Because man was "king" when the Bible was written) so they can only be saved through childbearing, faith, love, holiness and propriety.

Propriety refers to how she is expected to act under her husband.

 

Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

 

More subservience.

 

Ephesians 5:22 "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord".

Man serves under the Lord and so too shall the wife serve under her Husband in like fashion.

 

 

Nothing is being taken out of context. Slavery is slavery. Subservience in regards to women is subservience.

 

And as to slaves and the instructions for the owner....They are still slaves. The Bible condones slavery. You don't put caveats on it. Slavery is slavery. I don't care if they lived in nice conditions and had rights. You do not own another human being. Period. That is the same kind of logic that the nice plantation owners used to justify the continuance of slavery in America. "Oh we treat them nice, let them marry, 'own' property", we 'pay' them". They are still slaves.

 

Oh really? Genesis 34:13-29 deals with the sacking of a city by The Israelites. They kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.

There are other examples of people being taken as spoils of war against their will. I've read the Bible many times. Multiple versions too.

The simple fact is this:

The Bible is rife with historically dated values that was perfectly ok given the context of the day. It is not ok today. It is also rife with contradictions too. Goliath was killed.. what... twice? Genesis 1 and 2 have differing creation stories, the Ark animals were 1 pair or 7 pair? How long was Christ in Jerusalem? A few days or a year (Gospel of John vs others). The book is over 2,000 years old. Translated from Aramaic and Greek into Latin and other languages. It was butchered at the Council of Nicaea by Justinian (for his own devices) and further butchered during the Reformation.

While I agree the message the Jesus taught about love, acceptance and good morals is great, there are many aspects of the Bible that are not practiced today and yet people still cling to parts of it to justify their bigotry. You can defend it all you want but I don't see you bitching about people cutting their hair, wearing mixed fiber clothing, planting 2 or more crops in the same field, eating shellfish (an Abomination), working on the Sabbath, divorce, tattoos etc.

The one thing religious people cling to fervently is a few scant verses against Homosexuality. I am glad to note that this is slowly dieing out. Even the Pope has said to knock that shit off and stop relying on zealous dogma, ""Who am I to judge them if they're seeking the Lord in good faith?" he said. Hopefully in 50-a few hundred years people will stop using it to justify their fear/hatred/bigotry.

See, when you read the Bible, you have to care about context and purpose. If you aren't going to, you can quote the Bible all day, but I'm not interested because that's not what it meant.

If you've really read it that much, and still do this, then you have missed the point. Completely. 

As to your question, I already said where I drew the line. It most certainly has contradictions. However, I have found it to be ultimately right when you read it fully in context. That context is "What does this book mean for me and my relationship with God?". Reading it for any other purpose or way is what completely misses the point.

But, whatever. I think I'm done here. 

[Snickerzz]

I don't mean to offend, but please try to use fewer paragraphs. You needn't spread your posts out so much - it makes it difficult to read.

 

Homosexual people are not such through choice. They are born as a homosexual, they live as a homosexual and they die as a homosexual. Sexuality may be fluid and certain individuals may have witnessed a change in their sexuality in their life - however that does not make it an outright 'choice'. Your hair turns grey or white as you age, that does not make it a choice.

 

I must ask, have you ever known any homosexual people? And by know I do not mean fleetingly met, or those you met with the existing understanding that they were homosexual. Have you ever known one of your friends or family to be homosexual?

being a homosexual, i can agree, i didnt magically decide i liked dick one day  :lol:

[Advent]

As to your question, I already said where I drew the line. It most certainly has contradictions. However, I have found it to be ultimately right when you read it fully in context. That context is "What does this book mean for me and my relationship with God?".

And if you are going to quote context well every thing I quoted was in context the same way you use the Bible against people being gay.

 

So what does what someone else chooses to do with their life have to do with you and your relationship with God? The answer is nothing.

So someone being gay shouldn't bother you as it has nothing to do with you or your relationship with God.

If that is the way you and other religious people think then you need to stop quoting the Bible against Homosexuality as it isn't effecting you.

Let your God do his job and "sort em out". Gay lifestyles don't effect you, but your religious ideology and the way people use it to vote or in politics does effect gays.

 

[Snickerzz]

so, seeing how this has come to gays and jesus ill post this here