Help making storage server

[Renzov]

So I am interning at a biologists research center and I am a vteran when it comes to no life'ing tech having built my builds for like 6/7 years now. And they want to

make a storage server on site as all 3 people there have been working on one of the persons computer(it only has 2tb of storage). I offered to build a comp for one

of the slow computers and aslo a stoarge serve approx 16tb, should I just buy 4 hdd's and case (https://www.amazon.com/Silverstone-Technology-CS380B-Storage-Cases/dp/B01MA6NJE8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1530167614&sr=8-2&keywords=storage+server) and just install free nas connect to network and do that ?

[Jurrunio]

Just 4 HDDs? I thought you're going to do a RAID setup?

[Spotty]

10 minutes ago, One too many Chromosomes said:

So I am interning at a biologists research center

Does the research centre have their own IT department, IT contractors or IT suppliers? If so; have them do it. It's what they're being paid for.
You also don't want to be the one responsible if there's a hardware failure and important data is lost. Even if it's just a bad HDD, you will be the one who gets blamed for it.

[Renzov]

Can I not raid that ? should I do  2tb hdd's? Im just so new to makes storage servers that im so lost 

[Renzov]

1 minute ago, Spotty said:

Does the research centre have their own IT department, IT contractors or IT suppliers? If so; have them do it. It's what they're being paid for.
You also don't want to be the one responsible if there's a hardware failure and important data is lost. Even if it's just a bad HDD, you will be the one who gets blamed for it.

No they dont and I offered to build a comp for them as they were going to buy a pre built that was way to 

exoensive from best buy and kinda aslo said id build stoarge server in the midst of it all

[Tabs]

2 minutes ago, One too many Chromosomes said:

No they dont and I offered to build a comp for them as they were going to buy a pre built that was way to 

exoensive from best buy and kinda aslo said id build stoarge server in the midst of it all

 

Okay, a few questions first of all.

 

1. What kind of environment is the centre already using? Just as you wouldn't want to run a Windows server in a full-Linux environment, you don't necessarily want to run a Linux server in a windows based environment.

 

2. What kind of redundancy does this machine have to have? Raid is redundancy against disk failure, but do they need redundancy against memory failures, network failures, power outages? 

 

3. What - if any - additional services must this machine serve?

 

@Jurrunio asked about RAID and 4 drives because if you want any kind of redundancy you sacrifice capacity. 4 drives at 4TB cannot reach 16TB of space and also be redundant. You'll want at least 5x4TB drives to reach 16TB usable space under RAID5 (one disk failure), and 6x4TB drives to reach 16TB usable space under RAID6 (2 drive failures).

 

 

[Renzov]

19 minutes ago, Tabs said:

 

Okay, a few questions first of all.

 

1. What kind of environment is the centre already using? Just as you wouldn't want to run a Windows server in a full-Linux environment, you don't necessarily want to run a Linux server in a windows based environment.

 

2. What kind of redundancy does this machine have to have? Raid is redundancy against disk failure, but do they need redundancy against memory failures, network failures, power outages? 

 

3. What - if any - additional services must this machine serve?

 

@Jurrunio asked about RAID and 4 drives because if you want any kind of redundancy you sacrifice capacity. 4 drives at 4TB cannot reach 16TB of space and also be redundant. You'll want at least 5x4TB drives to reach 16TB usable space under RAID5 (one disk failure), and 6x4TB drives to reach 16TB usable space under RAID6 (2 drive failures).

 

 

1.All 3 comps use windows 

 

2. They essentially just want on big storage for all their files they have about 2 tb of storage right now but its literally all of their stuff since the beg of the whole research began in the 80's is in one comp so I want to put it all on storage fast. The raid 6 option you mentioned sounds great. 

 

3. No additiona; services besides them having to work off the server while work hours so everyday from 6ish am to 3pmish 

 

 

thanks for response!

[Tabs]

1 minute ago, One too many Chromosomes said:

1.All 3 comps use windows 

 

2. They essentially just want on big storage for all their files they have about 2 tb of storage right now but its literally all of their stuff since the beg of the whole research began in the 80's is in one comp so I want to put it all on storage fast. The raid 6 option you mentioned sounds great. 

 

3. No additiona; services besides them having to work off the server while work hours so everyday from 6ish am to 3pmish 

 

 

thanks for response!

 

It doesn't sound like they need anything super advanced right now, so if you build a machine based in a low end ryzen cpu like the 1200/2200G, add a basic raid adapter capable of RAID6 with enough ports for those drives. A client version of Windows or a low end version of Windows Server will be more than enough to manage data shares of that size, and will allow for full compatibility if they update their client computers - otherwise if cost is an issue, freenas or Linux will work fine.

 

However, bear in mind that everything @Spotty said is totally valid. If this machine ends up having issues, you'll be the primary support contact even if you aren't working there any more. 

[NelizMastr]

Word of warning, in addition to RAID you also need a back-up solution. RAID isn't infallible and isn't a back-up solution. It merely reduces the chance of catastrophic data loss. 

 

It's also worth mentioning that your limiting factor performance wise will likely be the network connection. Typically workstations/PCs have gigabit connections, so your maximum data rate is roughly 110MB/s in practice. Any modern harddisk can achieve these speeds so you should look into durable rather than fast drives unless you can splurge on 10Gig gear across the department. 

 

My two cents: RAID6 with 4TB WD Red or Seagate Ironwolf drives. They run cool, are designed to run 24/7 and have a solid rep. Also buy a bunch of USB harddisks to back-up the data to on a regular basis. I'd also just grab a Synology disk station. You'll save a crap ton of time on management and maintenance.

[Renzov]

So how should I go about doing this buy a case that can hold like 6 drives then run windows server on it ? What type of case should I get and How do I setup of raid exactly ? Im Sorry Im just so new at this and cant find a step by step guide anywhere.

[Renzov]

16 minutes ago, Tabs said:

 

It doesn't sound like they need anything super advanced right now, so if you build a machine based in a low end ryzen cpu like the 1200/2200G, add a basic raid adapter capable of RAID6 with enough ports for those drives. A client version of Windows or a low end version of Windows Server will be more than enough to manage data shares of that size, and will allow for full compatibility if they update their client computers - otherwise if cost is an issue, freenas or Linux will work fine.

 

However, bear in mind that everything @Spotty said is totally valid. If this machine ends up having issues, you'll be the primary support contact even if you aren't working there any more. 

 

13 minutes ago, NelizMastr said:

Word of warning, in addition to RAID you also need a back-up solution. RAID isn't infallible and isn't a back-up solution. It merely reduces the chance of catastrophic data loss. 

 

It's also worth mentioning that your limiting factor performance wise will likely be the network connection. Typically workstations/PCs have gigabit connections, so your maximum data rate is roughly 110MB/s in practice. Any modern harddisk can achieve these speeds so you should look into durable rather than fast drives unless you can splurge on 10Gig gear across the department. 

 

My two cents: RAID6 with 4TB WD Red or Seagate Ironwolf drives. They run cool, are designed to run 24/7 and have a solid rep. Also buy a bunch of USB harddisk to back-up the data to on a regular basis. I'd also just grab a Synology disk station. You'll save a crap ton of time on management and maintenance.

So how should I go about doing this buy a case that can hold like 6 drives then run windows server on it ? What type of case should I get and How do I setup of raid exactly ? Im Sorry Im just so new at this and cant find a step by step guide anywhere.

[Tabs]

1 minute ago, One too many Chromosomes said:

So how should I go about doing this buy a case that can hold like 6 drives then run windows server on it ? What type of case should I get and How do I setup of raid exactly ? Im Sorry Im just so new at this and cant find a step by step guide anywhere.

 

Buy a case which will fit at least 6 drives (they may wish to expand in future). Windows server is optional but recommended in this case, since it allows for more granular management of storage and enables things like deduplication - but remember that FreeNAS and Linux can do the same for free, but requires a lot more configuration on your part.

 

Once you install a raid card, it adds an extra step to the boot process that gives you the option to manage an array. If you have ever had to go into the bios, it'll be self explanatory when you see it.

 

A step-by-step guide probably isn't available because this is actually quite an advanced undertaking you've agreed to, and it's assumed that most people doing so have some experience doing it. I'm willing to help as much as I can, but be aware that you'll be the endpoint for any support requests, so it's imperative you understand anything that gets set up so that you can support it later.

[NelizMastr]

8 minutes ago, One too many Chromosomes said:

 

So how should I go about doing this buy a case that can hold like 6 drives then run windows server on it ? What type of case should I get and How do I setup of raid exactly ? Im Sorry Im just so new at this and cant find a step by step guide anywhere.

If you're not familiar with setting it up yourself, don't build it but buy it. Buy the drives + a prebuilt NAS.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Synology-Bay-NAS-DiskStation-Diskless/dp/B07CR8RZYY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1530173125&sr=8-2&keywords=synology+6+bay

https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-IronWolf-3-5-Inch-Internal-ST4000VN008/dp/B01LOOJBQY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1530173182&sr=8-2&keywords=seagate+ironwolf+4tb

 

That NAS + 6 4TB disks totals about $1500. Setup and management is done via the web GUI.

[Spotty]

1 hour ago, One too many Chromosomes said:

No they dont and I offered to build a comp for them as they were going to buy a pre built that was way to 

exoensive from best buy and kinda aslo said id build stoarge server in the midst of it all

Let them buy the pre-built.
With the way organisations and businesses operate, the upfront cost of a unit like this isn't the biggest concern for them. Half the time they can write most of it off come tax time anyway. What they want is reliability, customer support, and warranty. When something goes wrong, they want to be able to call a number on the side of the unit and speak to customer support.

Just have them buy something like this and stick in 4x4TB WD Reds or Seagate Ironwolfs. With RAID5 it will give you 12TB of storage space. If you need more space, use 4x6TB drives in RAID5 for 18TB.

https://www.amazon.com/Synology-bay-DiskStation-DS418-Diskless/dp/B075N17DM6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1530172185&sr=8-2&keywords=synology+4+bay+nas

The benefit of this is if something goes wrong they can pick up the phone and dial customer support or have it replaced under warranty. Services that you cannot provide yourself.

 

18 minutes ago, One too many Chromosomes said:

So how should I go about doing this buy a case that can hold like 6 drives then run windows server on it

The cost of a windows server license key will be more than the cost of a Synology NAS.

 

12 minutes ago, One too many Chromosomes said:

What type of case should I get and How do I setup of raid exactly ? Im Sorry Im just so new at this and cant find a step by step guide anywhere.

I don't mean to be rude, but if you don't know how to do it then you shouldn't be doing it. It's one thing to play around with it at home for storing your movies or photos on, but it's entirely different when you're doing it for an organisation that relies on that data.

If you do something wrong and they lose their data, or even if their systems are down for a day, it could cost them thousands upon thousands of dollars (if not more) in lost work, as well as set back their research significantly. As an intern at this organisation I can guarantee you do NOT want to be the guy responsible for data loss.

 

25 minutes ago, NelizMastr said:

Also buy a bunch of USB harddisks to back-up the data to on a regular basis.

This is good advice. They should purchase some external hard drives to back up the data on. Preferably keep off-site if possible in case of fire or theft in the lab. A 3TB external drive costs less than $100. 8TB external drives can be had for less than $200.
It should be backed up on a regular basis such as daily, weekly or monthly - depending on how important the data is and how disruptive it would be to lose it. You will only need a couple of the external drives and you can just write over the older backups - again this will depend on the needs of the organisation and how long they want to keep old back ups for.

[NelizMastr]

18 minutes ago, One too many Chromosomes said:

 

So how should I go about doing this buy a case that can hold like 6 drives then run windows server on it ? What type of case should I get and How do I setup of raid exactly ? Im Sorry Im just so new at this and cant find a step by step guide anywhere.

When buying new, you need to think of this price, roughly. So you barely save any money. Also, Windows Server 2016 is $400 at least.

 

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel - Pentium Gold G5400 3.7GHz Dual-Core Processor  ($66.99 @ Amazon) 
Motherboard: ASRock - H310M-HDV Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard  ($56.99 @ SuperBiiz) 
Memory: G.Skill - Ripjaws V Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR4-2666 Memory  ($79.99 @ Newegg) 
Storage: Seagate - IronWolf 4TB 3.5" 5900RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($120.87 @ OutletPC) 
Storage: Seagate - IronWolf 4TB 3.5" 5900RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($120.87 @ OutletPC) 
Storage: Seagate - IronWolf 4TB 3.5" 5900RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($120.87 @ OutletPC) 
Storage: Seagate - IronWolf 4TB 3.5" 5900RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($120.87 @ OutletPC) 
Storage: Seagate - IronWolf 4TB 3.5" 5900RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($120.87 @ OutletPC) 
Storage: Seagate - IronWolf 4TB 3.5" 5900RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($120.87 @ OutletPC) 
Case: Antec - P100 ATX Mid Tower Case  ($75.99 @ SuperBiiz) 
Power Supply: Corsair - TXM Gold 550W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply  ($59.99 @ Amazon) 
Operating System: Microsoft - Windows 10 Pro OEM 64-bit  ($127.98 @ Trusted Tech Team) 
Other: Cable Matters Internal Mini-SAS to 4x SATA Forward Breakout Cable 3.3 Feet  ($11.99 @ Amazon) 
Other: Cable Matters Internal Mini-SAS to 4x SATA Forward Breakout Cable 3.3 Feet  ($11.99 @ Amazon) 
Other: New LSI Internal SAS SATA 9211-8i 6Gbps 8 Ports HBA PCI-E RAID Controller Card  ($116.00 @ Amazon) 
Total: $1333.13
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-06-28 04:18 EDT-0400

[Renzov]

14 minutes ago, Spotty said:

Let them buy the pre-built.
With the way organisations and businesses operate, the upfront cost of a unit like this isn't the biggest concern for them. Half the time they can write most of it off come tax time anyway. What they want is reliability, customer support, and warranty. When something goes wrong, they want to be able to call a number on the side of the unit and speak to customer support.

Just have them buy something like this and stick in 4x4TB WD Reds or Seagate Ironwolfs. With RAID5 it will give you 12TB of storage space. If you need more space, use 4x6TB drives in RAID5 for 18TB.

https://www.amazon.com/Synology-bay-DiskStation-DS418-Diskless/dp/B075N17DM6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1530172185&sr=8-2&keywords=synology+4+bay+nas

The benefit of this is if something goes wrong they can pick up the phone and dial customer support or have it replaced under warranty. Services that you cannot provide yourself.

 

The cost of a windows server license key will be more than the cost of a Synology NAS.

 

I don't mean to be rude, but if you don't know how to do it then you shouldn't be doing it. It's one thing to play around with it at home for storing your movies or photos on, but it's entirely different when you're doing it for an organisation that relies on that data.

If you do something wrong and they lose their data, or even if their systems are down for a day, it could cost them thousands upon thousands of dollars (if not more) in lost work, as well as set back their research significantly. As an intern at this organisation I can guarantee you do NOT want to be the guy responsible for data loss.

 

This is good advice. They should purchase some external hard drives to back up the data on. Preferably keep off-site if possible in case of fire or theft in the lab. A 3TB external drive costs less than $100. 8TB external drives can be had for less than $200.
It should be backed up on a regular basis such as daily, weekly or monthly - depending on how important the data is and how disruptive it would be to lose it. You will only need a couple of the external drives and you can just write over the older backups - again this will depend on the needs of the organisation and how long they want to keep old back ups for.

Should I just throw together cheap build like dual core or cheap quad core and throw in 5/6 drives and bus udb external drives and back up , they dont have much money its not a big lab, I just built them a build and budget was 500max so I went with ryzen 2200g. They wont be able to afford alot hence I wanted some cheap option. I totally understand what you mean though as I am new to server stuff. 

 

[Renzov]

5 minutes ago, NelizMastr said:

When buying new, you need to think of this price, roughly. So you barely save any money. Also, Windows Server 2016 is $400 at least.

 

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel - Pentium Gold G5400 3.7GHz Dual-Core Processor  ($66.99 @ Amazon) 
Motherboard: ASRock - H310M-HDV Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard  ($56.99 @ SuperBiiz) 
Memory: G.Skill - Ripjaws V Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR4-2666 Memory  ($79.99 @ Newegg) 
Storage: Seagate - IronWolf 4TB 3.5" 5900RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($120.87 @ OutletPC) 
Storage: Seagate - IronWolf 4TB 3.5" 5900RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($120.87 @ OutletPC) 
Storage: Seagate - IronWolf 4TB 3.5" 5900RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($120.87 @ OutletPC) 
Storage: Seagate - IronWolf 4TB 3.5" 5900RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($120.87 @ OutletPC) 
Storage: Seagate - IronWolf 4TB 3.5" 5900RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($120.87 @ OutletPC) 
Storage: Seagate - IronWolf 4TB 3.5" 5900RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($120.87 @ OutletPC) 
Case: Antec - P100 ATX Mid Tower Case  ($75.99 @ SuperBiiz) 
Power Supply: Corsair - TXM Gold 550W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply  ($59.99 @ Amazon) 
Operating System: Microsoft - Windows 10 Pro OEM 64-bit  ($127.98 @ Trusted Tech Team) 
Other: Cable Matters Internal Mini-SAS to 4x SATA Forward Breakout Cable 3.3 Feet  ($11.99 @ Amazon) 
Other: Cable Matters Internal Mini-SAS to 4x SATA Forward Breakout Cable 3.3 Feet  ($11.99 @ Amazon) 
Other: New LSI Internal SAS SATA 9211-8i 6Gbps 8 Ports HBA PCI-E RAID Controller Card  ($116.00 @ Amazon) 
Total: $1333.13
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-06-28 04:18 EDT-0400

They have very small budget Im talking prob 600ish max. They cant afford to do something so expensive I beleive. I will totally consider this and mention it to see what it is that they say! thanks !!

[Spotty]

3 minutes ago, One too many Chromosomes said:

They have very small budget Im talking prob 600ish max. They cant afford to do something so expensive I beleive. I will totally consider this and mention it to see what it is that they say! thanks !!

Windows Server 2016 license key is $500+ for the most basic version.

The hard drives themselves will eat up most, if not all, of your budget. Seagate Ironwolf 4TB and WD Reds 4TB cost $120-$125 each. For 4x4TB drives it will cost almost $500 for the hard drives alone.

 

To get you even close to 14TB storage, the cheapest option without buying used parts would be a 4 bay NAS ($350) + 4x4TB HDDs ($500). That will set you back at least $850.

 

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822108681&cm_re=4_bay_nas-_-22-108-681-_-Product
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16822179005

 

Diskless NAS + 4x4TB HDDs. Total cost $854. That includes all necessary hardware and operating systems.
This will give you 12TB space with RAID5. Comes with 1gbe ethernet. All you need to do is slot the HDDs in, plug in an ethernet cable from it to the router, and set it up via the web GUI following the instructions in the manual. If you or your colleagues get stuck you can call Synology customer support for help.

[Renzov]

5 minutes ago, Spotty said:

Windows Server 2016 license key is $500+ for the most basic version.

The hard drives themselves will eat up most, if not all, of your budget. Seagate Ironwolf 4TB and WD Reds 4TB cost $120-$125 each. For 4x4TB drives it will cost almost $500 for the hard drives alone.

 

To get you even close to 14TB storage, the cheapest option without buying used parts would be a 4 bay NAS ($350) + 4x4TB HDDs ($500). That will set you back at least $850.

 

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822108681&cm_re=4_bay_nas-_-22-108-681-_-Product
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16822179005

 

Diskless NAS + 4x4TB HDDs. Total cost $854. That includes all necessary hardware and operating systems.
This will give you 12TB space with RAID5. Comes with 1gbe ethernet. All you need to do is slot the HDDs in, plug in an ethernet cable from it to the router, and set it up via the web GUI following the instructions in the manual. If you or your colleagues get stuck you can call Synology customer support for help.

Would it be bad to just put regular wd blues and throw them into cheap build and connect to network ? or would the synology option you mentioned be the best option ?

 Sorry that im asking so many questions just wanna know the possibilities to tell them what their options are. 

 

Thanks so far !

 

[NelizMastr]

6 minutes ago, One too many Chromosomes said:

Would it be bad to just put regular wd blues and throw them into cheap build and connect to network ? or would the synology option you mentioned be the best option ?

 Sorry that im asking so many questions just wanna know the possibilities to tell them what their options are. 

 

Thanks so far !

 

WD Blues aren't meant to be spinning all day and certainly not next to other drives (vibration is a big problem to consumer drives). You really need to get Reds or Ironwolfs. They're not THAT much more expensive and they have a much longer warranty. Also, chances are that your consumer drives will come from the same batch, so once a drive fails the likelyhood of another drive failing almost immediately after is greatly increased. NAS and server disks are always picked from different batches.

[Spotty]

3 minutes ago, One too many Chromosomes said:

Would it be bad to just put regular wd blues and throw them into cheap build and connect to network ? or would the synology option you mentioned be the best option ?

WD Blues aren't designed for 24/7 NAS operation. WD Reds are the version of HDDs made by Western Digital that are designed for 24/7 NAS operation.

 

The synology provides the complete system (without HDDs) for ~$350.
Do you think you could build a complete system with raid controllers and OS boot drive for under $350? Could you buy a suitable 2nd hand system for less than $350?

The "Chuck a bunch of HDDs in an old system" to build a NAS works if you already have a suitable old system that isn't being used that you can repurpose for the task. If you need to buy a system for it, it ends up becoming a lot more expensive.

[Renzov]

7 minutes ago, Spotty said:

WD Blues aren't designed for 24/7 NAS operation. WD Reds are the version of HDDs made by Western Digital that are designed for 24/7 NAS operation.

 

The synology provides the complete system (without HDDs) for ~$350.
Do you think you could build a complete system with raid controllers and OS boot drive for under $350? Could you buy a suitable 2nd hand system for less than $350?

The "Chuck a bunch of HDDs in an old system" to build a NAS works if you already have a suitable old system that isn't being used that you can repurpose for the task. If you need to buy a system for it, it ends up becoming a lot more expensive.

With the prebuilt nas option can I configure it so that it shows up in the file explorer as a drive or computer they can access without them having to use a program as they arent super tech savy.

[NelizMastr]

6 minutes ago, One too many Chromosomes said:

With the prebuilt nas option can I configure it so that it shows up in the file explorer as a drive or computer they can access without them having to use a program as they arent super tech savy.

Yes. It's super easy to set up. Create the shares, create users, set the permissions and then just mount them as a network drive in Windows.