New info/facts on the Eric Lundgren vs. US Govt.-Microsoft case

[GeminiJ13]

It was suggested in the last WAN show that Mr. Lundgren was not given an opportunity to stop his operations with something as simple as a cease and desist letter. Although Microsoft might not have verbally warned him, US Customs did tell Mr. Lundgren that his activities were illegal. The below blog adds much to the conversation.

 

Article quote: "

In the last few days there have been several stories about the sentencing of Eric Lundgren in a case that began in 2012, and we have received a number of questions about this case and our role in it. Although the case was not one that we brought, the questions raised recently have caused us to carefully review the publicly available court documents. All of the information we are sharing in this blog is drawn from those documents. We are sharing this information now and responding publicly because we believe both Microsoft’s role in the case and the facts themselves are being misrepresented.

But to start, it’s important to state our principles:

1. We fully support refurbishing and recycling of computers and have robust programs to support this. There are many individuals and companies who do great work here. We have programs that support refurbishers. Altogether these programs have more than 3,000 members, recycling millions of PCs.
2. While we’ve cut back substantially on the number and types of piracy cases that we bring, we remain committed to protecting our customers when we see others working to deceive them – especially when they’re acting unlawfully. We often pursue actions, for example, against phone scammers who masquerade as technical support to trick and defraud customers. We similarly remain concerned when counterfeiters seek to deceive consumers, even more so when they’re seeking to profit from this activity."

 

https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-facts-about-a-recent-counterfeiting-case-brought-by-the-u-s-government/

Edited May 3, 2018 by GeminiJ13
To comply with Posting Guidelines

[Cornelious11]

so people wanted to crucify Microsoft for being an expert witness in a counterfeit/fraud case brought against the defendant by US Customs? 

[GeminiJ13]

3 minutes ago, Cornelious11 said:

so people wanted to crucify Microsoft for being an expert witness in a counterfeit/fraud case brought against the defendant by US Customs? 

This appears to be what happened.  

[potoooooooo]

There should be zero controversy surrounding this. The government did all the prosecuting, and the guy was trying to sell the disks for four dollars apiece. He himself admits this. End of story. Open and shut case.

[ARikozuM]

20 minutes ago, potoooooooo said:

There should be zero controversy surrounding this. The government did all the prosecuting, and the guy was trying to sell the disks for four dollars apiece. He himself admits this. End of story. Open and shut case.

The recovery discs aren't provided for anywhere. If you lose them, the companies (in this era of digital ease) charge excessively large amounts of money (some from OEM's have been $40). These aren't cracked discs, these merely use the already available license to rebuild the PC (you're already in ownership of the license key) and Microsoft would rather sell you a new $100 license for something that you already have.

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Cornelious11 said:

so people wanted to crucify Microsoft for being an expert witness in a counterfeit/fraud case brought against the defendant by US Customs? 

And the sad thing is most of this information was available from the beginning but some people wanted to intentionally ignore it.

33 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

The recovery discs aren't provided for anywhere. If you lose them, the companies (in this era of digital ease) charge excessively large amounts of money (some from OEM's have been $40). These aren't cracked discs, these merely use the already available license to rebuild the PC (you're already in ownership of the license key) and Microsoft would rather sell you a new $100 license for something that you already have.

 A company being twats with their IP does not legitimize piracy.    The fact these discs by themselves can't be used to install a fresh copy of windows also is irrelevant.

 

 

[ARikozuM]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

snip

None of it is irrelevant. If the user has everything (license and PC) and only needs a recovery disc, who should provide it? The OEM should. What if they don't? They should in the first place. Either you make it available so that a system can be recovered or you let users and repairers take it into their own hands. 

[mr moose]

9 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

None of it is irrelevant. If the user has everything (license and PC) and only needs a recovery disc, who should provide it? The OEM should. What if they don't? They should in the first place. Either you make it available so that a system can be recovered or you let users and repairers take it into their own hands. 

You are talking about an end user and a pirate as if they are interchangeable.  One broke the law trying to make money and the other is being fucked over a by a company.

As I said:

 

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

 A company being twats with their IP does not legitimize piracy.  

 

 

 

[GoodBytes]

Please update your post to meet posting guidelines, else I would need to move out the thread.

 

[GoodBytes]

Well, another things is that no one read the emails that was presented in the court documents. In them you can see he was being reported that a client of his noticed that his disk didn't have matching copyrights and wrong and different manufacturing country (which is illegal by itself), and he pretty much said to give/sale them anyway, and that people won't notice them. It is clear counterfeit . All we got was HIS side of the story, and no or most media outlet never bother getting the other side of the story.

 

AND on top of things

HE HIMSELF declared he is guilty of the mentioned crime. He didn't even fight anything in court. And now he is playing "Oh I am innocent, believe me!, I am doing good!" Please.

If you are, than plea not guilty and fight your case. He didn't.

[Apotheosis.1]

Yeah, this was the first time since I first started watching Linus that it was obvious he was completely clueless. So much so he really needs to backtrack publicly, considering how much influence he has in the tech community.

 

Seriously, as much as I dislike The Borg, Microsoft didn’t even bring the case, the US government did. And Lundgren was warned prior to getting taken to court. And his emails seem to indicate a strong profit motive. And this case didn’t happen in 2018, so restore discs made a lot more sense at the time.

 

Literally nothing he said on the WAN Show was correct!

[Spotty]

9 hours ago, GeminiJ13 said:

It was suggested in the last WAN show that Mr. Lundgren was not given an opportunity to stop his operations with something as simple as a cease and desist letter. Although Microsoft might not have verbally warned him, US Customs did tell Mr. Lundgren that his activities were illegal. The below blog adds much to the conversation.

There's already a thread on the news board discussing this, which does go on to discuss the Microsoft blog post, if you're interested in joining the conversation over there.

 

 

7 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

All we got was HIS side of the story, and no or most media outlet never bother getting the other side of the story.

It's amazing how many of the news articles that condemned Microsoft quoted their source solely as an interview or media statement from Lundgren.
I guess after all the publicity surrounding Right to Repair lately as soon as they see something come across their desk labelled "Microsoft sends man to prison for repairing computers" they run with it like a dog chasing a garbage truck.

[Canada EH]

44 minutes ago, Spotty said:

how many of the news articles that condemned Microsoft quoted their source solely as an interview or media statement

It is now the age of FAKE NEWS.

 

Just lazy people really!

[avg123]

When you buy a Windows license, you are buying the right to use the software, so only you can burn the recovery disc for free, since you have bought the rights to the software.

 

Even though the recovery software is freely available to download, a person who has not bought the right to the software like Lundgren has no right to burn and sell the software.

 

[Canada EH]

There should be a GoFundMe campaign to help Lundgren buy slippers, canteen, tv, ps4 and games while he is doin' his bit.

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, avg123 said:

When you buy a Windows license, you are buying the right to use the software, so only you can burn the recovery disc for free, since you have bought the rights to the software.

 

Even though the recovery software is freely available to download, a person who has not bought the right to the software like Lundgren has no right to burn and sell the software.

 

Another angle to understand the issue from.  

[GeminiJ13]

On 4/29/2018 at 5:33 PM, GoodBytes said:

Please update your post to meet posting guidelines, else I would need to move out the thread.

 

Goodbytes.  I searched this forum for stories like this one before I posted this, per the rules.  My search turned up nothing and so I posted it.

[GoodBytes]

4 hours ago, GeminiJ13 said:

Goodbytes.  I searched this forum for stories like this one before I posted this, per the rules.  My search turned up nothing and so I posted it.

Yes, very good.... but it does not meet the posting guidelines mentioned in the link. Please read the guidelines. Thank you!

[skull_leader]

On 4/29/2018 at 4:35 PM, ARikozuM said:

The recovery discs aren't provided for anywhere. If you lose them, the companies (in this era of digital ease) charge excessively large amounts of money (some from OEM's have been $40). These aren't cracked discs, these merely use the already available license to rebuild the PC (you're already in ownership of the license key) and Microsoft would rather sell you a new $100 license for something that you already have.

At the time of this case 2011-2012  Windows XP Windows XP SP3 and windows 7 were easily  available. 

If the user provide serial  number of computer it could downloaded for free reinstall disk from DEll,

Also Dell sold to end user the disk for 5 -11 dollars. 

So as a legitimate  end user of Dell at that time one could download the disk or buy it for 5-11.

Now we know this because these were the price of the disk wolf  purchased and sent Erick to duplicate.

 

Wolf then attempted to sell the disk that Eric supplied for  3 for Windows XP and 4 dollars for windows 7.

If you sold  your computer to a store.  They would need to have  the  genuine DELL  reinstall disk COA and manuals in order to resell the computer with windows. 

If they did not have it, they then need to get copy from MS 20-40 which also came with COA.  This ensures new user has legitimate copy of windows.   This  were the people Erick & Wolf were selling counterfeit disks to.  If system had COA but no disk for 4 dollars they got a disk and  then were able to sell the machine with Windows. 

Which was, what the majority of customers wanted. (but now they have counterfeit disk)

 

So Erick & Wolf setup shop to scam the refurbisher.   As they would have the lowest cost provider of "Genuine" OEM disk.

This why there 28K disk and all printed to look like Dell OEM disk.

In case of copyright infringement the cost is created the retail value of the product.  In this case it the Disk MS would sell to refurbishers that did not have original disk.  These were 20 for Windows Xp and 40 Dollars for windows 7.  MS  said that thy would not itemize   and settled on 25 for each disk 28K. (an accommodation to Erick)     When they were requested to come up with restitution They said will it would 75% of  25 as there is cost to produce disk.  and used that number times 20K  (again they used lower number to accommodate  the defense) 

The prosecution , judge and defense waived restitution as the 28K disk were seized so they were not black market.  

Finally even though the valuation would cause Erick to server 37-46 months.  The prosecution asked their original term 18 months. (so before MS came into this he was going to jail for 18 months)  Judge gave him 15 months because they felt he had grown as person but he spent 2 years in criminal enterprise did a lot of work for it and did not cooperate initially. 

 

So when all is said and done MS was not a factor at all he was going to be incarcerated.  

[TechyBen]

On 29/04/2018 at 9:06 PM, Cornelious11 said:

so people wanted to crucify Microsoft for being an expert witness in a counterfeit/fraud case brought against the defendant by US Customs? 

The US customer are acting on CDs being poisonous... right? Or acting on a protection passed by MS? If it's Copyright/patent/trademark/import/counterfeiting... I seriously doubt the US government would do a single thing if MS made no mention. Are you saying, if I make my own software, and person B decides to import 40,000 cds of it... customs automatically send person B to prison?

 

So they got him on a technicality? Copied disc cover says "made in us", while discs were made in China? Hahahaha... what a sad world.

(PS, for all those claiming "it's the law they broke it", um Apple, Google, Amazon etc all do exactly the same, at most pay a fine, get zero prison time... basically the guy just needed a bigger corporation/lawyer to hide behind... I know the "law", and I'm not contesting it, but the application of it being somewhat corrupt. An example, I've never heard of Youtube, Google, Apple employees doing time for stealing code, music, video etc from programmers and artists!)

[skull_leader]

5 hours ago, TechyBen said:

The US customer are acting on CDs being poisonous... right? Or acting on a protection passed by MS? If it's Copyright/patent/trademark/import/counterfeiting... I seriously doubt the US government would do a single thing if MS made no mention. Are you saying, if I make my own software, and person B decides to import 40,000 cds of it... customs automatically send person B to prison?

 

So they got him on a technicality? Copied disc cover says "made in us", while discs were made in China? Hahahaha... what a sad world.

(PS, for all those claiming "it's the law they broke it", um Apple, Google, Amazon etc all do exactly the same, at most pay a fine, get zero prison time... basically the guy just needed a bigger corporation/lawyer to hide behind... I know the "law", and I'm not contesting it, but the application of it being somewhat corrupt. An example, I've never heard of Youtube, Google, Apple employees doing time for stealing code, music, video etc from programmers and artists!)

If you are caught trafficking in counterfeit goods and criminal copyright infringement there is a chance you will goto prison 

You can import bags but if you  make them look like Gucci add Gucci label and trademarks all over it, you are going to be in trouble.

Now if you have 28K of them sending it to US for over  a 2 year period and work with your partner  make them look like Gucci to the untrained eye.  The chances increase. 

Windows software was not his IP to copy and sell. 

 

[Mira Yurizaki]

23 hours ago, avg123 said:

Even though the recovery software is freely available to download, a person who has not bought the right to the software like Lundgren has no right to burn and sell the software.

This is the exact reason why you can't download a pirated copy of something even if you own or have owned a legitimate copy and claim you're getting a backup. You are getting a copy from an unlicensed distributor.

[avg123]

As I understand from skull_leader's comment.

 

1. Say you went to a refurbished store to buy a laptop, and you want windows on it.

 

2. You ask the refurbisher if they have a laptop with genuine windows on it. If they have it great! You pay a little extra and get a laptop with genuine windows.

 

If not, no problem, you pay less but you have to buy a retail windows license on your own.

 

3. So you say you want the laptop with genuine windows on it. He gives you a laptop running Windows and tells you the Windows on it is genuine. You can check the key.

So how do you check if the refurbished laptop has genuine windows on it?

 

You check the validity of the serial key at Microsoft.com right?

WRONG.

The laptop may have an OEM key intended for another laptop!

 

Many times an OEM key will appear valid at Microsoft.com, but once Microsoft realizes that the key is not for the laptop it was originally intended for, they will block it.

 

4. But you are a smart buyer. You know a laptop with genuine Windows will come with a genuine recovery CD with a Cerificate Of Authencity.

You ask for the Genuine CD with COA from the seller. He gives it to you and you are satisfied the laptop is running genuine Windows! 

 

Great!  But you would not buy the laptop if it did not come with genuine Windows right?

 

This is where Eric Lundgren comes in. He would make counterfeit CDs that looked exactly like the genuine CD with COA. So a buyer would buy a laptop thinking he bought a laptop with genuine windows that came with it.

 

He would scam you into thinking you bought laptops with the recovery disc that came with the laptop. But he actually copied the contents into a blank CD, imitated Dells trademark on it.

 

He says that he even gave the original OEM key that came with the laptop, so he was not doing anything wrong!

 

So as a buyer, you were getting the laptop with the original OEM key but a counterfeit CD.

 

Counterfeit CD so what? You got the original key right?

 

Wrong. You bought the laptop under the impression that it came with the original CD. Eric Lundgren did not tell you he was selling you a counterfeit CD. That is the scam!

[TechyBen]

13 hours ago, M.Yurizaki said:

This is the exact reason why you can't download a pirated copy of something even if you own or have owned a legitimate copy and claim you're getting a backup. You are getting a copy from an unlicensed distributor.

Some countries allow copies for personal use. They don't allow distribution. But it gets murky when everything is "digital" and the "cloud". If I lose my original, and a "copy" is just a hash register on Google drive... did they provide the original, or distribute a copy?

 

I've no defence or desire to support trademark copying, or counterfeiting. These CDs should have been labeled "duplicate Dell OS CDs" or something... but still, It's all about the punishment, not the correction.

[GeminiJ13]

On 5/1/2018 at 6:04 AM, GoodBytes said:

Yes, very good.... but it does not meet the posting guidelines mentioned in the link. Please read the guidelines. Thank you!

I have little knowledge of how to post things in forums like this one.  The only thing that I can tell (after reading the posting guidelines again) is that I did not include a "quote tag" (whatever that is) to the post that I made.  I used the search box in the upper right-hand corner and typed in "quote tags" and nothing explaining what that is comes up to explain it.  I don't know what else to do.  I have tried my best.  My original intent was for Linus to see this new information so that he could update his audience on the next WAN show.  But, if you must remove this post, I understand.  For future reference, where do I go to get either detailed instructions on posting or pictures of examples I can follow?  Thank you.