Apple apologizes over battery fisasco, will offer $29 battery replacements for 1 year

[Valentyn]

9 minutes ago, ElfenSky said:

I completely agree. I have a Redmi Note 3 Pro, and it already shuts off at 30-40% if it's cold outside. Fucked me over when my car broke down on the side of the road and I had to warm it up before being able to turn it back on and call my insurance.

My One Plus One was an absolute mess after more than a year (had it since invites went out for orders). It’s dog slow, randomly turns off; and constantly has software errors.

The phone’s back and camera would also get far too warm for my liking when shooting video as well.

 

The worst being that the Dialer constantly stops responding. It refuses to make or answer calls unless I restart the device.

 

Issues happen to all phones. For me the most reliable have been iPhones, and until being dropped in water by a family member; my old iPhone 4s was a better daily driver in the end than my One Plus One.

 

Recently got an iPhone again and will likely try android again in a few years. 

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, PocketNerd said:

While talking about future technologies is nice, there's no real guarantee that they will be used any time soon.

Some of the newer technologies are in use in batteries, just not in mobile phones. Now I don't know why, could be a few factors but I'd bet limited volume plays a part in it. Not everything can be condensed down in to small packages or they can but it won't give you a battery pack with the required characteristics to make the phone work. That's the tricky thing about all the different types of Lithium batteries, how different they actually are. If the internal volume of the iPhone had to be 20%-30% greater to support a superior battery then in my view that is very much worth the only very small dimension increase to the device, sometimes function should come over features.

 

Lithium Polymer isn't actually as good as people would tend to believe either and not all of them are equal, there are things you can do to make them slightly better or worse.

 

Quote

Li-polymer can be built on many systems, the likes of Li-cobalt, NMC, Li-phosphate and Li-manganese, and is not considered a unique battery chemistry. The majority of Li-polymer packs are cobalt based; other active material may also be added.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/the_li_polymer_battery_substance_or_hype

 

So to say the iPhone uses a Lithium Polymer battery actually tells us nothing about how good it actually is, which one is it? The difference actually matters.

 

Based on the information @bcredeur97 gave me about the iPhone X having a 3.81V battery I can guess which type is being used, Li-manganese sounds like the most likely. I could try and track it down using the coding on the battery pack from internet photos but it's not really that important because I know based on this that the batteries in use have shorter longevity than a normal Li-cobalt battery.

 

Quote

Battery users want to know if Li-ion cells with higher charge voltages compromise longevity and safety. There is limited information available but what is known is that, yes, these batteries have a shorter cycle life than a regular Li-ion; the calendar life can also be less. Since these batteries are mostly used in consumer products, the longevity can be harmonized with obsolescence, making a shorter battery life acceptable. The benefit is longer a runtime because of the gained Wh (Ah x V). All cells must meet regulatory standards and are safe.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/confusion_with_voltages

 

What Apple has chosen to do is give customers a cheaper battery but have sacrificed longevity of the battery and the device's ability to maintain a consistent usage time on a single charge. Lithium Manganese (300-700, 1998) has very close to half the charge cycles as Lithium Cobalt (500-1000, 1991), why is a phone in 2016-2017 using battery technology from 1998?

 

Apple should be using Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide which has been around and ready to use since 2008, yes 2008. With a cycle life of 1000-2000 this is far better than 300-700, and I know this is not the battery technology being used due to the voltage of the battery. This is directly replaceable and requires no modification of any of the device's electronics. Lithium Titanate (3,000–7,000, 2008) would be a even better option but that would require changing device electronics to make it compatible with the lower or high voltage depending on configuration, Parallel (2.4V) vs Series/Parallel (4.8V), and being lower in energy density would mean a larger battery pack would be required. Also Lithium Titanate is by far the safest of the current Lithium battery technologies you can use right now.

 

TL;DR It appears Apple is using the worst Li-Po battery type in regards to longevity compared to other directly usable options.

 

Edit:

FYI Cobalt is really expensive which is why Li-Cobalt fell out of favor and likely why Apple is not using Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide, but we are talking about very expensive devices and this battery technology is used in power tools and E-Bikes.

[D13H4RD]

Come to think of it. 

 

An iPhone battery (and probably a lot of phones) have an expected charge cycle of 500 cycles before degradation. 

 

But the iPad and MacBook has 1000 cycles 

[Fetzie]

11 hours ago, Eduard the weeb said:

yeah but what I am saying if they added an extra 10% battery size then they wouldn't

thats why I said it should have been future proofed so making a bigger battery would help.

That would just postpone the problem, not fix it.

[79wjd]

4 hours ago, XenosTech said:

It's almost like the plus models have a bigger battery

 

I understand why the Plus models are unaffected, the battery in the non plus models is just too small (that's one of my two issues against Apple in all of this) -- well, maybe too small (it depends if the throttling occurs within a reasonable time under a reasonable use case or if it's only occurring to those extreme users).

 

My point was against the planned obsolescence. If that was Apple's goal here, then they would have made it affect all models. 

3 hours ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

Come to think of it. 

 

An iPhone battery (and probably a lot of phones) have an expected charge cycle of 500 cycles before degradation. 

 

But the iPad and MacBook has 1000 cycles 

The size of the battery makes a difference. Plus the iPhone battery supposedly has a much higher resistance, which allows them to get a much higher density, but also causes them to deteriorate faster. (I can't remember if I read that from someone here who sounded like they knew what they were talking about or some article.)

 

But, FWIW, I didn't notice any major degredation with my 15" MBP battery until I was close to 1500-2000 cycles, and at 2300 cycles I've only lost 30% capacity. 

[captain_to_fire]

“I approve of his message”. I encourage everyone to watch it as it’s the most balanced commentary imo about the Apple battery/throttling brouhaha. 

 

 

[johnbanks]

Pissed me off too when I heard.  

[79wjd]

1 hour ago, hey_yo_ said:

“I approve of his message”. I encourage everyone to watch it as it’s the most balanced commentary imo about the Apple battery/throttling brouhaha. 

 

 

This right here sums it all up: 0:14.

[D13H4RD]

42 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

“I approve of his message”. I encourage everyone to watch it as it’s the most balanced commentary imo about the Apple battery/throttling brouhaha. 

 

 

I think the real issue is getting Apple to actually replace them. 

 

I have 2 friends who had iPhone 6s units (one regular, one Plus) both developed battery issues with the Plus being worse off. Both were sent to the Apple Store to have them sorted. The suggestions were countless restores and they refused to change the battery even when offered to pay because it passed diagnostics, even though they were clearly not working as they should, especially for a then-new phone. 

 

I think this should go much smoother but all they had to do was a notification that told you that the iPhone needed a new battery. 

[DrMacintosh]

5 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

vast majority of independent electronic repair centres that handle Apple equipment all agree Apple use planned obsolescence and have done since Cook took over.

What do their opinions mean to me? Nothing. 

 

And eveeything you posted doesnt relate to planned obsolescence, it just makes their devices harder to repair. 

 

5 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

They've been PROVEN to arbitrarily restrict hardware through software updates

You clearly don’t understand the definition of arbitrary nor do you really understand what this topic actually is about. Go read Apples statement on this.

 

5 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

they killed off X Serve updates at Sierra for no reason.

They reason is nobody uses macOS Server. Apple is a indipendent company and has every right to close down all operations tomorrow if they wanted, regardless of how easy it would be to continue staying in business. 

 

5 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

2017 MBPs will ONLY run High Sierra, try and install Sierra or earlier and you get the prohibited sign

Macs ship with the OS that was out at the time on manufactur. The newer hardware was not designed to run older versions of macOS so it does not. 

 

5 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

High Sierra removed compatibility with all TB2 hardware and any TB3 hardware where the controller was made in 2016.

That’s just a lie  Apple even sells Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapters! Not sure where you get your information buddy, but you should double check it and then take it with a grain of salt. 

 

5 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Apple openly admitted to the US high courts that they only rate their devices to last 365 days and anything beyond that is based on luck, i

Not doing that opens a company up a lot more legal trouble than its worth. Apple offers the legal warranty and can go guarantee the product will make it past that, any electronics company that guarantees their products will last outside of the warranty period is simply lying to you. 

 

Its not like anyone can actually know when a device will fail, it just happens. 

5 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

but please don't stand there and tell me the bullshit I'm smelling is actually roses because that does nothing but reflect badly on you.

Luckily however anyone thinks of me on this forum is of 0 consequence to anything. 

[Valentyn]

24 minutes ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

I think the real issue is getting Apple to actually replace them. 

 

I have 2 friends who had iPhone 6s units (one regular, one Plus) both developed battery issues with the Plus being worse off. Both were sent to the Apple Store to have them sorted. The suggestions were countless restores and they refused to change the battery even when offered to pay because it passed diagnostics, even though they were clearly not working as they should, especially for a then-new phone. 

 

I think this should go much smoother but all they had to do was a notification that told you that the iPhone needed a new battery. 

There kinda is one; but it's a single sentence at the top of the Battery section of settings. It was also added for iOS 10.2.1; which is the one that introduced all this drama to begin with.

 

Quote

On an iPhone running iOS 10.2.1 or later, this notice might appear in Settings > Battery: “Your iPhone battery may need to be serviced.” 

Why the notice appears

Using diagnostics in iOS, we've detected that the battery in your iPhone may need to be replaced. When a battery gets closer to the end of its lifespan, the amount of charge and the ability to provide power reduces. As a result, a battery may need to be charged more and more frequently and your iPhone might experience unexpected shutdowns.

This isn’t a safety issue, it’s just to let you know that your battery may need to be replaced. You can continue to use your iPhone until you have your battery checked. 

There are various factors that can affect the performance and lifespan of your device’s battery, including number of charge cycles, age of your battery, and exposure to extreme heat or cold. Learn more about maximizing battery life and lifespan.
 

 

 

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207453

 

Quote

Get help

To get help with a battery replacement, take your iPhone to an Apple Authorized Service Provider or Apple Retail Store.* You can also contact Apple Support.

All rechargeable batteries have a limited number of charge cycles and might eventually need to be serviced. Apple’s one-year warranty, AppleCare+, and consumer law include service coverage for a defective battery.

 

 

Average person never even touches the battery section in Settings; though. Although Apple are going to make a change at least with the next big iOS update as they claim. Should really help people.

 

Although I'm not sure about the US; but in the EU it's much easier to get the battery replaced. It's hard for them to refuse; and we have consumer law covering defects between 2-6 years as well depending on your country.

Now it is entirely different if the battery is simply end of life, and consumed after 3-5 years though; but if there's a defect the Point of Sale can repair or replace under Consumer Law at least; especially when out of warranty.

[captain_to_fire]

58 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

This right here sums it all up: 0:14.

Many people are pissed in the comments section of Quinn’s video just like some if not many in this forum. 

[D13H4RD]

20 minutes ago, Valentyn said:

There kinda is one; but it's a single sentence at the top of the Battery section of settings. It was also added for iOS 10.2.1; which is the one that introduced all this drama to begin with.

 

 

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207453

 

 

Average person never even touches the battery section in Settings; though. Although Apple are going to make a change at least with the next big iOS update as they claim. Should really help people.

 

Although I'm not sure about the US; but in the EU it's much easier to get the battery replaced. It's hard for them to refuse; and we have consumer law covering defects between 2-6 years as well depending on your country.

Now it is entirely different if the battery is simply end of life, and consumed after 3-5 years though; but if there's a defect the Point of Sale can repair or replace under Consumer Law at least; especially when out of warranty.

Yeah, that's the thing. People hardly go there. So they don't even know their iPhone needs a battery replacement. 

[captain_to_fire]

4 hours ago, leadeater said:

FYI Cobalt is really expensive which is why Li-Cobalt fell out of favor and likely why Apple is not using Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide, but we are talking about very expensive devices and this battery technology is used in power tools and E-Bikes.

I’m still waiting for this to take off ? https://scholar.google.fr/scholar?q=graphene+nanotechnology+battery&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG0LuHw6_YAhXM1qQKHVqCAIQQgQMIIjAA 

 

The odds of developing a safe EV alone with existing Lithium-ion battery is like wishing an ignited box of matchsticks to not explode. Same goes with phones. Every smartphone in everyone’s pocket is a potential IED waiting to be triggered thanks to Lithium Ion batteries. 

[Master Disaster]

4 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

What do their opinions mean to me? Nothing. 

 

And eveeything you posted doesnt relate to planned obsolescence, it just makes their devices harder to repair. 

 

You clearly don’t understand the definition of arbitrary nor do you really understand what this topic actually is about. Go read Apples statement on this.

 

They reason is nobody uses macOS Server. Apple is a indipendent company and has every right to close down all operations tomorrow if they wanted, regardless of how easy it would be to continue staying in business. 

 

Macs ship with the OS that was out at the time on manufactur. The newer hardware was not designed to run older versions of macOS so it does not. 

 

That’s just a lie  Apple even sells Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapters! Not sure where you get your information buddy, but you should double check it and then take it with a grain of salt. 

 

Not doing that opens a company up a lot more legal trouble than its worth. Apple offers the legal warranty and can go guarantee the product will make it past that, any electronics company that guarantees their products will last outside of the warranty period is simply lying to you. 

 

Its not like anyone can actually know when a device will fail, it just happens. 

Luckily however anyone thinks of me on this forum is of 0 consequence to anything. 

 

1) That's arguing semantics and you know it. By making devices harder to repair they're forcing users into buying hardware that otherwise might have been repaired. Also on the topic of opinions, I take the word of the guys making videos showing the issues they're having over the word of a random guy in a forum.

 

2) Not the point. I was pointing out how they killed the platform for no real reason. It was an example of using software to kill hardware before it's dead.

 

3) Arbitrary, something done because of opinion on whim rather than because of a system or reason. Why would I read Apple's statement? It's entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

 

4) Again total B.S. What part of the 8000 series Intel CPU is incapable of running an OS the 7000 series could run? Why do older MBPs run older OSes fine but the 2017 model can't? One phrase, Arbitrary Restriction.

 

5) Really Mr I Know Everything About Apple, so I assume a hack to circumvent the restriction only exists because the hackers are crazy? Explain this then...

https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/21/tb3-enabler-enable-unsupported-thunderbolt-3-devices-hack-macbook-pro/

 

6) I'm not even dignifying that with a response. The very fact you think it's OK for Apple to say a $1,000 device might only work for 1 year proves exactly how warped your mindset is towards Apple.

[Valentyn]

9 minutes ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

Yeah, that's the thing. People hardly go there. So they don't even know their iPhone needs a battery replacement. 

Sadly, that's mostly consumer ignorance. Apple has released a youtube channel, the amazing Apple Support App ( free ); free support articles online ( many the exact same staff use, and all included in the Apple Support app ), and mentioned this in their iOS update notes.

They've done a hell of a lot more than other phone manufactures. Plus it's free to call Apple Care and get a free diagnostic over WiFi if you're having issues.

 

Outside of a big flashing popup in the middle of the screen saying the battery is having issues; the consumer will still be out of the loop; even with the new upcoming iOS update. As it's simply improving and expanding on the Battery Section.

And if Apple did include that big popup; there would be outrage about that as well.

 

It's a tough situation; but in the end could have been mitigated more with better knowledge provided. The issue is; the average consumer will almost always be out of the loop, and jump to conclusions. I think the biggest issue bar transparency is the consumer rights, and laws in the USA.

1 Year warranty, and then you're stuck being out of pocket for a battery replacement.

At least in the EU we have longer warranties; ignoring Apple Care; and Consumer Law. In Ireland; Consumer Law covers us another 6 years for any hardware defects; where the seller needs to repair or replace free of charge. It does include battery defects as well.

Quote

Under Irish consumer law, consumers are entitled to a free of charge repair or replacement, discount or refund by the seller, of defective goods or goods which do not conform with the contract of sale. These rights expire six years from delivery of the goods.

 

Non–Apple branded products purchased from Apple are also eligible for coverage under Irish consumer law, but these are not covered by the Apple Limited Warranty, the AppleCare Protection Plan or AppleCare+.

 

https://www.apple.com/ie/legal/statutory-warranty/

[DrMacintosh]

2 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Why would I read Apple's statement? It's entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

If you don't know Apples position then you can't comment on their actions because you don't know what their actions actually are. 

 

2 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Why do older MBPs run older OSes fine but the 2017 model can't? One phrase, Arbitrary Restriction.

They cannot run older Ones because why would you want to? There is no reason for Apple to waste time adding support for older, out of date, operating systems. 

 

3 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Really Mr I Know Everything About Apple, so I assume a hack to circumvent the restriction only exists because the hackers are crazy? Explain this then...

It must be. Thunderbolt 2 devices work on all Thunderbolt 3 equipped Macs, Period. 

[mynameisjuan]

Wow these comments. I lost faith in humanity.

 

-Batteries wear down

-CPUs require minimum voltage

 

Those are facts. People arguing against it are just idiots. Either throttle it (iphone) to prevent shutdown or allow full load (nexus 6P) and the phone has a chance of shutting off. Choose an option, this is not a Apple just fix it or prevent it. Jesus christ people......

[DrMacintosh]

4 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

The very fact you think it's OK for Apple to say a $1,000 device might only work for 1 year proves exactly how warped your mindset is towards Apple.

And I don't care.  

[D13H4RD]

Everyone keeps saying iPhones are hard to repair. 

 

Yeah, about that..... 

 

Try cracking open one of the newer Android flagships. My old Moto Z is an absolute bitch to take apart, and the same thing for my Note8 where lots of heat and prying tools are needed. 

 

The iPhone 6s/7? Literally 2 (pentalope) screws and a freaking suction cup...... 

 

Yes, they're harder than a user replaceable battery but as sealed batteries go, this one is simple. 

[Valentyn]

Just now, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

Everyone keeps saying iPhones are hard to repair. 

 

Yeah, about that..... 

 

Try cracking open one of the newer Android flagships. My old Moto Z is an absolute bitch to take apart, and the same thing for my Note8 where lots of heat and prying tools are needed. 

 

The iPhone 6s/7? Literally 2 screws and a freaking suction cup...... 

Main reason not to DIY the repair, or take it to a cheap repair shop is the water proof seal, and possible accidental damage; and the service provided by Apple.

I see people claiming it's $29 for a battery off Ebay; sure you can do that. Unofficial battery, DIY job; but it costs the same now as getting it repaired by Apple or one of their Authorised Service providers. The water proof/resistant seal is even replaced by them on the newer phones and you don't risk the chance of you damaging it, or using some 3rd party un-certified part.

Plus if something goes wrong in the repair by them you get a replacement phone instead.

[Master Disaster]

10 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

If you don't know Apples position then you can't comment on their actions because you don't know what their actions actually are. 

 

They cannot run older Ones because why would you want to? There is no reason for Apple to waste time adding support for older, out of date, operating systems. 

 

It must be. Thunderbolt 2 devices work on all Thunderbolt 3 equipped Macs, Period. 

1) Please explain why you think I need to know about Apple's policies to form an opinion of Apple's actions.

 

2) Really, so Luis Rossman doesn't keep a Mavericks drive that he uses to test boot every Mac book he repairs? I literally haven't seen him run Mavericks on a 2016 Mac Book. With every response your argument gets weaker and weaker. It wasn't until the 2017 MBP that Apple restricted older OSes at a firmware level and that's a fact.

 

3) Except the Mac Book Pro 2017 where Apple changed the kext file for the TB controller and restricted what devices would work with the machine, again another fact.

[D13H4RD]

1 minute ago, Master Disaster said:

1) Please explain why you think I need to know about Apple's policies to form an opinion of Apple's actions.

Because you need to know their official stance before you can form an opinion because it gives another data point to work off of. 

 

Without so, you're just basing it off speculation. To form a well versed opinion, you need lots of sources, both official and unofficial but valid 

[D13H4RD]

3 minutes ago, Valentyn said:

Main reason not to DIY the repair, or take it to a cheap repair shop is the water proof seal, and possible accidental damage; and the service provided by Apple.

I see people claiming it's $29 for a battery off Ebay; sure you can do that. Unofficial battery, DIY job; but it costs the same now as getting it repaired by Apple or one of their Authorised Service providers. The water proof/resistant seal is even replaced by them on the newer phones and you don't risk the chance of you damaging it, or using some 3rd party un-certified part.

Plus if something goes wrong in the repair by them you get a replacement phone instead.

Yeah, it's safer to just take it to Apple, especially with the discount. 

 

But my point was that iPhones aren't that hard to repair. If anything, it's pretty straightforward... 

[Master Disaster]

4 minutes ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

Because you need to know their official stance before you can form an opinion because it gives another data point to work off of. 

 

Without so, you're just basing it off speculation. To form a well versed opinion, you need lots of sources, both official and unofficial but valid 

Not at all, they can say anything they like, it's not going to change how I feel about what they do.

 

I'm basing nothing of speculation, I'm basing my opinion on what I see and hear Apple doing. The fact they try to justify their B.S. in their policies doesn't make their actions any less B.S.

 

If I walk around carrying a sign saying I'm going to steal from you, when I steal from you it will still be illegal.