Bitcoin: It's over 9000!!! (Edit: Now it's over 20,000!)

[laminutederire]

7 hours ago, iRandomize said:

 

 

When money was bound to gold, it had value because it could always be exchanged for gold at a known rate. Back when the gold standard was still used, there weren’t that many practical uses for gold - except for it being pretty. So gold mainly got it value because it was a limited resource. As gold fluctuated in value, so would money. Not a great attribute. 

 

Today, regular currencies are valuable because everyone agrees that it has value. The fluctuation in the value of regular currencies are (mainly) controlled by the interest rates and thus controlled by central banks / governments. 

 

Bitcoin has value because it is a limited resource in much the same way gold was. And in the same way gold did, bitcoin can fluctuate in value as the demand for bitcoin changes.

 

I am very fond of the principle of a limited-resource based currency. I think there are some significant shortcomings of the current central bank system (the Austrian School raises some very valid concerns in my opinion) and think the potential for alternative measures of value is interesting - and the apparent interest in bitcoin/etherum would suggest I’m not the only one. I do however not believe that bitcoin is a perfect solution. The power usage and significant transaction time are reasons why bitcoin will never be a viable alternative to cash for everyday transactions. Not to mention the huge fluctuations (increases) in price. But as a proof of concept that currency/money does not have to be run by a government I think bitcoin is very fascinating, and opens some very interesting possibilities for future currencies. 

The real value of gold isn't in its rarity, but more on its stability. You have 1kg of gold, you know that in 2 generations you'll have more than 0.1kg of gold. You'll roughly have the same amount of gold. So you won't get poorer in time because of natural degradation. That's why there are some material with huge prices which are more abundant than others with lower values.

[Okjoek]

16,000 now wow.

 

Keeping in the spirit of spicy DBZ memes I want to see Bitcoin get taken out like Perfect Cell.

 

Gonna get hit by that massive Kamehameha bubble burst and scream "I'm Perfect" as it disintegrates. Makes sense since both were born from technology.

It's like I didn't think Capitalism could sink any lower it finds a new way to waste humanities valuable resources. I feel the only reason it exists is for people who want to be integrated to modern society without contributing to it in any positive way.

 

 

[Ertman]

On 11/30/2017 at 3:09 PM, laminutederire said:

The real value of gold isn't in its rarity, but more on its stability. You have 1kg of gold, you know that in 2 generations you'll have more than 0.1kg of gold. You'll roughly have the same amount of gold. So you won't get poorer in time because of natural degradation. That's why there are some material with huge prices which are more abundant than others with lower values.

That can't be true. If one were to discover a deposit that adds a significant amount to the global gold inventory then the value of your gold would go down. Despite the fact you still have the same amount of gold the value decreased as its value is determined by what you can trade it for.

 

i think what you mean is why it was used as a basis for currency.

[mr moose]

14 hours ago, Ertman said:

That can't be true. If one were to discover a deposit that adds a significant amount to the global gold inventory then the value of your gold would go down. Despite the fact you still have the same amount of gold the value decreased as its value is determined by what you can trade it for.

 

i think what you mean is why it was used as a basis for currency.

That is more accurate in my understanding.  Gold being a rare metal and a highly demanded resource is what gives it its true value.  A massive deposit or drop in demand will reduce it's value.   The thing with gold and conventional currencies is that their value is determined by material supply/demand and entire economies, while bitcoins value is determined only by the interest of people who wish to invest in it or use it.   As we can see the Value of BTC has gone through the roof in a very rapid way.  It can come down just as fast.  However you will not see conventional currencies do this unless the whole nation is in a crisis. 

[laminutederire]

5 hours ago, Ertman said:

That can't be true. If one were to discover a deposit that adds a significant amount to the global gold inventory then the value of your gold would go down. Despite the fact you still have the same amount of gold the value decreased as its value is determined by what you can trade it for.

 

i think what you mean is why it was used as a basis for currency.

I'm not that sure it would go down first of all. The reason why is that its properties as stable investment will not change, and since basically every rich entity stores money for long term as gold/materials akin to gold, and/or art and everything which is not supposed to change of value over time. It is not in the interest of the richest, and of nations and even some powerful companies to see the value of gold drop, so the fall you'd see would be controlled big time to not destabilize this. So it might go down slightly, but it would be as usual. Would we still be under Bretton woods agreement it wouldn't have budge even a tiny bit for that same reason.

 

Secondly, the scenario you describe is somewhat improbable in itself. Would there be an easy to exploit large pool of gold in nature, we'd have found it already. If there remains a huge stock of gold, it would be difficult to get it, and the production costs would force producers to sell gold at the same price or even at an higher price. Just like it is with oil in a way.

 

You see gold as a normal commodity, that's why you expect it to behave like any other commodity. Exception being that its properties give it a use which won't change its price drastically. The only things which would maybe get cheaper would be jewels made of gold and other elements, like engagement rings of normal people etc. Solely because gold isn't used there as a money placement, and that it isn't pure.

 

As for what you said last @mr moose, it's the sole reason I think bitcoin will die at some point. It cannot live to the expectations of people as a currency for people, because it is unusable in practice because of its high volatility.

And right now every time I read this forum I laugh, because I see people bitching about gambling in SWBII, while people are drooling all over the possibilities of betting on bitcoins on the next thread, which shows the current state of society. Gambling is an addiction of society. It's an apparently easy way of getting rich without doing anything except not looking at risks. And as it always is, reality catches up eventually, and the craze around it makes some people very poor and some very rich, just like in casinos, because there is a blind escalation fed on the desire to get rich and be a part of something in a confine mind framework. They only see what benefits they can have on short term without seeing that the bitcoin value has attained states where it is faaaaar away from its real value, the value it has on its own without speculation.

[mr moose]

8 hours ago, laminutederire said:

 

because there is a blind escalation fed on the desire to get rich and be a part of something in a confine mind framework.

 

Not only that, but with bitcoin there is also an ideal people are ascribing to it, the concept that decentralized currency is absolutely going to work better.    That is a strong draw factor as it plays on emotions as well.

[Ertman]

On 12/8/2017 at 7:27 AM, laminutederire said:

I'm not that sure it would go down first of all. The reason why is that its properties as stable investment will not change, and since basically every rich entity stores money for long term as gold/materials akin to gold, and/or art and everything which is not supposed to change of value over time. It is not in the interest of the richest, and of nations and even some powerful companies to see the value of gold drop, so the fall you'd see would be controlled big time to not destabilize this. So it might go down slightly, but it would be as usual. Would we still be under Bretton woods agreement it wouldn't have budge even a tiny bit for that same reason.

 

Secondly, the scenario you describe is somewhat improbable in itself. Would there be an easy to exploit large pool of gold in nature, we'd have found it already. If there remains a huge stock of gold, it would be difficult to get it, and the production costs would force producers to sell gold at the same price or even at an higher price. Just like it is with oil in a way.

 

You see gold as a normal commodity, that's why you expect it to behave like any other commodity. Exception being that its properties give it a use which won't change its price drastically. The only things which would maybe get cheaper would be jewels made of gold and other elements, like engagement rings of normal people etc. Solely because gold isn't used there as a money placement, and that it isn't pure.

 

 

 No, that isn't correct.

 

Gold doesn't simply have an inherent value or stability in its value. Simple statistical analysis can probably show this. Careful when using fiat currencies when valuing gold as they can have their own fluctuations and need to be addressed when performing the analysis.

 

Simplistically, the value is based on its supply and demand. The supply is limited, so only the demand can have any real affect on its value, unless large deposits are found and dumped on the market. The level of demand can be affected by numerous forces. Discounting the fluctuation in fiat currencies used to value gold, some forces include, but not limited to, people's fondness for it, the intrinsic uses (including its use as money), and speculation/hedging.

[Agosto]

4 hours ago, Ertman said:

Gold doesn't simply have an inherent value or stability in its value. Simple statistical analysis can probably show this. Careful when using fiat currencies when valuing gold as they can have their own fluctuations and need to be addressed when performing the analysis.

 

Simplistically, the value is based on its supply and demand. The supply is limited, so only the demand can have any real affect on its value, unless large deposits are found and dumped on the market. The level of demand can be affected by numerous forces. Discounting the fluctuation in fiat currencies used to value gold, some forces include, but not limited to, people's fondness for it, the intrinsic uses (including its use as money), and speculation/hedging.

Gold has a material value, it has some characteristics that make it stand out from most other metals. Cryptocurrencies don't.

[Ertman]

2 hours ago, Agost said:

Gold has a material value, it has some characteristics that make it stand out from most other metals. Cryptocurrencies don't.

Yes, as stated in my post, but thanks for pointing it out. Also, I was just talking about just golds value and the reason for its stability.

 

I  am in agreement with your point, as crypto currencies will have a limited supply, it only has the value that we place in it which is even less than fiat currency. 

 

 

[Okjoek]

20,000 and still growing.

https://www.rt.com/business/413449-bitcoin-tops-20000-dollars/

 

 

[Eduard the weeb]

Kinda insane how fast it is growing wasn't it only a few hundred last year like damn 

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

does no one smell a fish? O_O from 9K to 20K within this thread's current lifespan??

futures trading.  very big smelly fish.

 

[Cookybiscuit]

4 hours ago, VegetableStu said:

does no one smell a fish? O_O from 9K to 20K within this thread's current lifespan??

150K by Christmas.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Cookybiscuit said:

150K by Christmas.

$1 January 1st 2018 

[The Benjamins]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

$1 January 1st 2018 

A crash like that seem to be impossible. Their would have to be a fundamental flaw in BTC core code that get discovered to have a impact big enough to drive it that low.

[leadeater]

Just now, The Benjamins said:

A crash like that seem to be impossible. Their would have to be a fundamental flaw in BTC core code that get discovered to have a impact big enough to drive it that low.

Be bloody interesting to watch it happen though . I need an emergency supply of popcorn for when there is a crash.

[The Benjamins]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Be bloody interesting to watch it happen though . I need an emergency supply of popcorn for when there is a crash.

If this effected all coins, it would be a crazy panic.

 

But if it was only BTC I could see exchanges getting slammed with orders to switch to others like ETH. The values of the top 10 Alt coins would sky rocket.

 

It would be fun to watch the craze and panic. then buy up a lot of BTC for $1 a piece and hope for a fix from the core team.

[mr moose]

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

Be bloody interesting to watch it happen though . I need an emergency supply of popcorn for when there is a crash.

I'd be more interested in the comments from wall street and the heads of the big investment banks.   I wouldn't be at all surprised to find they are behind this sudden growth in it's value.  

[mr moose]

So this just got reported:

 

http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/investing/bitcoincom-cofounder-sells-entire-stash-calls-it-virtually-unusable-as-a-currency/news-story/217509dd165fb12b41896927b38930d1

 

EDIT coming with more info in a sec.

 

 

EDIT: essentially he sold his bitcoin for bitcash and claims the high cost of transferring and running transactions makes it an unusable currency.

 

[asus killer]

did anyone say "bubble"  

 

This is just crazy

[Taf the Ghost]

11 hours ago, mr moose said:

I'd be more interested in the comments from wall street and the heads of the big investment banks.   I wouldn't be at all surprised to find they are behind this sudden growth in it's value.  

BTC has had Futures contracts on the CME exchange as of December 10th. That's really what's been going on. BTC hasn't had a lot of Net Sellers since it went beyond 2k USD, so it's a "cheap" product to create Pump & Dump scenarios within. A good number of bigger players would have started buying heavy when they found out about the Futures contract being approved. They're going to be seeing 10:1 returns for driving the price up to where it is.

 

Most of that is actually illegal to do, but good luck tracking down who's been pulling strings. Crypto hasn't ever really been an issue when it comes to Black Market money, but there's always been risks from the "White Collar" financial crimes. 

[asus killer]

9 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Most of that is actually illegal to do, but good luck tracking down who's been pulling strings. 

not that traditional currencies are in any way safe, but because of it's nature virtual currencies are a lot more exposed to the "scams" used on the stock market for traditional currencies, no one can ever get to the "bad guys". It escalates the problem

[mr moose]

14 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

BTC has had Futures contracts on the CME exchange as of December 10th. That's really what's been going on. BTC hasn't had a lot of Net Sellers since it went beyond 2k USD, so it's a "cheap" product to create Pump & Dump scenarios within. A good number of bigger players would have started buying heavy when they found out about the Futures contract being approved. They're going to be seeing 10:1 returns for driving the price up to where it is.

 

Most of that is actually illegal to do, but good luck tracking down who's been pulling strings. Crypto hasn't ever really been an issue when it comes to Black Market money, but there's always been risks from the "White Collar" financial crimes. 

I believe the term for it in the industry is creating a fan club.  Which I was alluding to with my smelly fish comments on the previous page. 

[Taf the Ghost]

7 minutes ago, asus killer said:

not that traditional currencies are in any way safe, but because of it's nature virtual currencies are a lot more exposed to the "scams" used on the stock market for traditional currencies, no one can ever get to the "bad guys". It escalates the problem

Yup. It's a lot like penny stocks, though those are more done by spreading false rumors. With crypto, it could be someone with money in France that is buying through cut-outs in HK and Singapore and you're never going to track them down. Plus, who has jurisdiction? Can you hop over to that spot in eastern Africa that's not claimed by anyone, run an illegal crypto manipulation there and then be completely scot-free?

 

BlockChain is here to stay. BTC? No clue. The tech, and the ability to drive down transaction costs, are the big game changer.

[Taf the Ghost]

Depending on the exchange, we've either dropped into the 11k or 10k range. So, now stories about updates are interesting.