Thermal throttling on PS1 or PS2?

[GFC_]

Hey everyone!

 

This may seem like an odd question but is very relevant to me. You see, I'm a speedrunner. This means I play games as quickly as possible (with a timer running, etc) with a community of people doing the same thing. 

 

In these speedruns of video games, there sometimes exist tricks/glitches that have very small frame windows to be executed. For example, I may have to hit the X or the O button on ONE particular frame to do a trick correctly.

 

It seems the longer my Playstation 2 is on, the harder it becomes to perform these frame-perfect (the game runs at 60 frames per second) tricks. I wonder if it is because of thermal throttling.

 

So, my question: Is thermal throttling a thing that is possible on the Playstation or the Playstation 2? If you have any proof for either side (technical manuals or something), please post that along with your answer.

 

Thanks!

[JakeNTech]

3 minutes ago, GFC_ said:

Hey everyone!

 

This may seem like an odd question but is very relevant to me. You see, I'm a speedrunner. This means I play games as quickly as possible (with a timer running, etc) with a community of people doing the same thing. 

 

In these speedruns of video games, there sometimes exist tricks/glitches that have very small frame windows to be executed. For example, I may have to hit the X or the O button on ONE particular frame to do a trick correctly.

 

It seems the longer my Playstation 2 is on, the harder it becomes to perform these frame-perfect (the game runs at 60 frames per second) tricks. I wonder if it is because of thermal throttling.

 

So, my question: Is thermal throttling a thing that is possible on the Playstation or the Playstation 2? If you have any proof for either side (technical manuals or something), please post that along with your answer.

 

Thanks!

The PS2 slim in particular is dust nightmare, I would take it apart and then use some compressed air and blow it out. Thermal throttling is more then possible. Form memory the ps1 has no fan and is passively cooled. But in both cases Thermal throttling is more then possible, but I dought you would notice on a PS1.

[Zando_]

I'd assume it overheats massively. Which do you have, the fat or slim?

[GFC_]

I have a slim. But see, this discussion goes further than "I think it is possible."

 

See, the reason we need to know is because we might ban the use of emulators for the speedrun of this game.

 

Emulators are legal in our speedrun because they, currently, have no advantage over consoles. However, if thermal throttling is 100% confirmed to exist on PS1 and PS2, then that means emulators (UNOFFICIAL ways to play the game) can theoretically have an advantage over consoles (OFFICIAL ways to play the game).

 

If that is true, then we are going to discuss banning the use of emulators for the speedrun. But some kind of concrete proof would be needed to bring up in the discussion.

[Zando_]

Just now, GFC_ said:

I have a slim. But see, this discussion goes further than "I think it is possible."

 

See, the reason we need to know is because we might ban the use of emulators for the speedrun of this game.

 

Emulators are legal in our speedrun because they, currently, have no advantage over consoles. However, if thermal throttling is 100% confirmed to exist on PS1 and PS2, then that means emulators (UNOFFICIAL ways to play the game) can theoretically have an advantage over consoles (OFFICIAL ways to play the game).

 

If that is true, then we are going to discuss banning the use of emulators for the speedrun. But some kind of concrete proof would be needed to bring up in the discussion.

Stick a thermal probe in the PS2 and see how hot it gets? Or rip it out of it's case and set up a nice cooling system to eliminate thermal throttling. BTW, what games are you speedrunning?

[GFC_]

Just now, Zando Bob said:

Stick a thermal probe in the PS2 and see how hot it gets? Or rip it out of it's case and set up a nice cooling system to eliminate thermal throttling. BTW, what games are you speedrunning?

The speedrun in question is of Yu-Gi-Oh! Forbidden Memories for the Playstation 1. Currently, the fastest way to play it is on console (PS2 with FDS turned on, with a BIOS version of 75001 or higher). However, there are multiple frame perfect tricks that now exist and if thermal throttling can happen, emulator has to go.

[Zando_]

Just now, GFC_ said:

The speedrun in question is of Yu-Gi-Oh! Forbidden Memories for the Playstation 1. Currently, the fastest way to play it is on console (PS2 with FDS turned on, with a BIOS version of 75001 or higher). However, there are multiple frame perfect tricks that now exist and if thermal throttling can happen, emulator has to go.

Ah. I've seen some speed runs of the old Mario games and stuff, and it's pretty epic. And I'd say I'm 90% sure they thermal throttle, especially Slims. Just keep them super clean and they should perform better. 

[JakeNTech]

At the end of the day its a normal computer system, so yes It will thermal throttle if the temps are too big, but generally speaking a console has a pretty good cooling system for the hardware is packs, as its all custom designed. 

[Mira Yurizaki]

I can't actually imagine the system thermal throttling, considering such technology wasn't really prevalent until the mid 2000s. Especially the PS1, since it didn't consume enough power to warrant a heat sink. If anything, the consoles would just quit.

[AshleyAshes]

In this case, it may be important to note just how the PlayStation 2 achieved backwards compatibility.  In the case of the PS2, it's IO processor is a MIPS R3000A, the exact same CPU as the PS1.  When playing PS1 games, the R3000A in the PS2 is running the game, NOT the R5900 'EmotionEngine' chip.  So measuring the temps on the PS2 CPU while running PS1 games would deliver no useful results since the R5900 will be mostly idle.  This all said, depending on the models, the R3000A may be under the PS2's heat sink assembly, however it's hard to say so definatively since there are actually a whopping 16 different PlayStation 2 motherboard revisions across both the Fat and Slim models.

Bonus Info: This is why there are no HDD loading mods for PS1 games on the PS2.  Because the R3000A in the PS2 can't be an IO processor (Which controlled the IDE interface) AND a PS1 CPU at the same time.  It can do one mode at a time.

[SageOfSpice]

Why would you ban emulators if the console is found to thermal throttle? 

Emulators would be more reliable in that case, wouldn't they? Unless you expect speedrunners to attempt to stare at the sky the majority of the time to attempt to reduce the load on the console.

 

There'd also be other factors to consider, such as the medium that the game is being played on itself. Anything other than a CRT is going to have a degree of input delay, and if you're running active signal conversion or anything to try and play the game on a modern panel, that as well will add some delay.

 

I don't know much about speedrunning, but it just seems odd.

 

I've personally never seen any of the older consoles overheat. Usually any stuttering I encounter has to do with the game being unable to read the disk at times. I'd say the easiest way to eliminate it as a factor would be to make it thermal throttle in the first place. Cover the thing in a blanket or something, and if it behaves in the same manner you claim it does during critical periods, then you know that it's a potential issue. The ps3 was the first console I'd ever owned to actually thermal throttle.

[JakeNTech]

58 minutes ago, SageOfSpice said:

Why would you ban emulators if the console is found to thermal throttle? 

Emulators would be more reliable in that case, wouldn't they? Unless you expect speedrunners to attempt to stare at the sky the majority of the time to attempt to reduce the load on the console.

 

There'd also be other factors to consider, such as the medium that the game is being played on itself. Anything other than a CRT is going to have a degree of input delay, and if you're running active signal conversion or anything to try and play the game on a modern panel, that as well will add some delay.

 

I don't know much about speedrunning, but it just seems odd.

 

I've personally never seen any of the older consoles overheat. Usually any stuttering I encounter has to do with the game being unable to read the disk at times. I'd say the easiest way to eliminate it as a factor would be to make it thermal throttle in the first place. Cover the thing in a blanket or something, and if it behaves in the same manner you claim it does during critical periods, then you know that it's a potential issue. The ps3 was the first console I'd ever owned to actually thermal throttle.

Like I said there all computer systems so have the capacity to thermal throttle, but most of the time thats down to dust build up because the cooling solution on a console can be tailor made for the hardware the console packs. 

If you are really worried about this then remove the case, or do what I did and cut a whole about the fan on the ps2 slim so that it can pull in air a little more easily then the small vent holes on the front. 

[Zodiark1593]

We are talking about a time where dinky fans and heatsinks were the norm. I was under the impression that the console would either shut down or cook itself instead of throttling the EE/GS. 

 

Also, I'm not certain, but there May be other differences in the system architecture (memory?) that can impact frame times. I would try running on original PS1 hardware before making the decision to ban the emulator for official speed runs.

[Mira Yurizaki]

4 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

We are talking about a time where dinky fans and heatsinks were the norm. I was under the impression that the console would either shut down or cook itself instead of throttling the EE/GS.

I'm not sure why people think thermal throttling has been a thing since forever. It requires the system to be able to operate in varying degrees of clock speed. Given that consoles thrive in constants and the consoles aren't exactly power hogs compared to a fully spec'd gaming PC of the time, it'd make little sense to me to add that in the PS2, even if it was capable of doing so.

 

I mean, I don't get where people think consoles have had thermal throttling. Or computers in general. TDP wasn't really an issue for consumer grade computer systems until Intel busted out their Pentium 4s.

[AshleyAshes]

21 hours ago, M.Yurizaki said:

I'm not sure why people think thermal throttling has been a thing since forever. It requires the system to be able to operate in varying degrees of clock speed. Given that consoles thrive in constants and the consoles aren't exactly power hogs compared to a fully spec'd gaming PC of the time, it'd make little sense to me to add that in the PS2, even if it was capable of doing so.

 

I mean, I don't get where people think consoles have had thermal throttling. Or computers in general. TDP wasn't really an issue for consumer grade computer systems until Intel busted out their Pentium 4s.

A few days ago I googled the issue and I couldn't find results.  And that's weird, cause usually the hobbiest retro game scene gets a lot of coverage in it's little nook of the internet.

I'm also a bit unsure that those chips were capable of any kind of throttling at all.  This is before a time when reducing heat and power consumption with a dynamic CPU clock was common.  I can't find any confirmation that the PS1 or PS2 chips were capable of modifying their clockspeed at all.

[Mira Yurizaki]

10 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

A few days ago I googled the issue and I couldn't find results.  And that's weird, cause usually the hobbiest retro game scene gets a lot of coverage in it's little nook of the internet.

I'm also a bit unsure that those chips were capable of any kind of throttling at all.  This is before a time when reducing heat and power consumption with a dynamic CPU clock was common.  I can't find any confirmation that the PS1 or PS2 chips were capable of modifying their clockspeed at all.

And I'm pretty certain until the late 90s, you still had to set jumpers to modify the bus speeds and unlocked multipliers weren't really a thing.

[AshleyAshes]

Just now, M.Yurizaki said:

And I'm pretty certain until the late 90s, you still had to set jumpers to modify the bus speeds and unlocked multipliers weren't really a thing.

Maybe, though we are talking about specialized chips and not PC hardware, so we can't assume a 1:1 comparison.  But in googling the CLOSEST thing I can find is that you can overclock the machines by lifting a pin on the CPU.  It then doubles in clockspeed.  Though this kind of hardware hack leans more to the CPU having no dynamic clockspeed on it's own.

 

Re-reading the OP, I think the answer to this thread is actually simple:

 

On 8/4/2017 at 2:44 PM, GFC_ said:

It seems the longer my Playstation 2 is on, the harder it becomes to perform these frame-perfect (the game runs at 60 frames per second) tricks. I wonder if it is because of thermal throttling.

 

So, my question: Is thermal throttling a thing that is possible on the Playstation or the Playstation 2? If you have any proof for either side (technical manuals or something), please post that along with your answer.

 

I think the OP is wearing out and their skills weigh from prolonged playtime, stress, or any other number of psychological factors and they are attempting to assign the blame on hardware rather than meatware.

[Mira Yurizaki]

5 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Maybe, though we are talking about specialized chips and not PC hardware, so we can't assume a 1:1 comparison.  But in googling the CLOSEST thing I can find is that you can overclock the machines by lifting a pin on the CPU.  It then doubles in clockspeed.  Though this kind of hardware hack leans more to the CPU having no dynamic clockspeed on it's own.

You can overclock most CPUs by increasing the speed of the clock input pin if the CPU is designed to take in an external signal. There's a YouTube video floating around on someone who overclocked a GameBoy Color (although all that resulted in was the game running literally faster).

 

So what I meant there was that software still had no control over clock speeds, maybe aside from minor tweaks.

[Zodiark1593]

On 8/8/2017 at 9:12 AM, M.Yurizaki said:

You can overclock most CPUs by increasing the speed of the clock input pin if the CPU is designed to take in an external signal. There's a YouTube video floating around on someone who overclocked a GameBoy Color (although all that resulted in was the game running literally faster).

 

So what I meant there was that software still had no control over clock speeds, maybe aside from minor tweaks.

The PSP had software control over it's CPU. That's one of the earlier devices I know of (aside from PCs) that can do so.

 

I don't think the PS3 had thermal throttle itself either.