First UHD Blu-Ray Drive for PC to be Put on Sale From Next Month - But There's a Catch...

[Mira Yurizaki]

19 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Except you know, Microsoft were the ones who made and pitched the DRM to the movie studios. Microsoft were not forced to develop this DRM. They did it themselves and then sold it to the paranoid studios. Nobody forced Microsoft to "implement their stupid schemes" because it was Microsoft themselves that designed, sold and implemented the scheme.

 

Also, Microsoft have basically described themselves as the gatekeepers of 4K. This is from their own slides regarding ReadyPlay 3.0.

My interpretation of this slide means it was a solution to get 4K UHD content to play consistently on Microsoft's ecosystem. And how do you know that Microsoft didn't come to the studios first to ask what would it take to have their content be able to play on their ecosystem? For all I know, this slide is their answer to whatever the studios said their requirements would be.

 

The only way I would believe Microsoft is solely responsible for creating the DRM just to create DRM is Microsoft has had a hand in all current UHD Blu-Ray players and 4K capable steaming devices. But as far as I know, PlayReady is only for the Microsoft ecosystem in response to the studios demanding some sort of "content protection" scheme.

 

Quote

You know, kind of what Apple did with DRM for music (they did cave in at first, but then removed it). And today it is extremely rare to find music with DRM on it. It was everywhere before Apple put the fist down and said "no more!".

Apple was also in a fairly unique position at the time in that they had a huge hand in the digital music industry. Microsoft doesn't cave in? Oh well, there's a dozen other companies that will.

[LAwLz]

13 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

My interpretation of this slide means it was a solution to get 4K UHD content to play consistently on Microsoft's ecosystem. And how do you know that Microsoft didn't come to the studios first to ask what would it take to have their content be able to play on their ecosystem? For all I know, this slide is their answer to whatever the studios said their requirements would be.

 

The only way I would believe Microsoft is solely responsible for creating the DRM just to create DRM is Microsoft has had a hand in all current UHD Blu-Ray players and 4K capable steaming devices. But as far as I know, PlayReady is only for the Microsoft ecosystem in response to the studios demanding some sort of "content protection" scheme.

So what you're saying is that you won't blame the creator and implementer of the DRM. You instead put the blame on the customers (the customers being the studios, which pays Microsoft to use Readyplay)?

 

How do I know that Microsoft didn't ask what it would take to play content consistently on their devices? Because content playing consistently on devices is the default thing. DRM is the thing that prevents consistent playback on all devices from happening.

Things would have worked better on Microsoft products if the DRM did not exist. For example right now nobody except people with Kaby Lake processors can view the videos, even though a much larger amount of people would be able to watch if the DRM Microsoft developed and implemented didn't exist.

 

Again, Microsoft was in the position to tell them to fuck off. Do you really think the studios has any power of Microsoft, which owns the largest distribution platforms? Again, Microsoft are the gatekeepers. I don't know why you try and make them out to be the victims when they could have just said "no we don't agree to this" and the studios would be forced to cater to a fraction of the audience, or go along with Microsoft's demands.

 

How do you know that Readyplay was only created as a response from studios? You're making that assumption based on nothing but your belief that Microsoft is a good company. Microsoft has been in the DRM business (developing and selling DRM solutions) for many many years now (well over 10 years).

Even if it was, Microsoft still had the chance to say no, but they didn't.

[Mira Yurizaki]

13 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

So what you're saying is that you won't blame the creator and implementer of the DRM. You instead put the blame on the customers (the customers being the studios, which pays Microsoft to use Readyplay)?

The customers being the content creators and therefore, the owners of the copyright who are paranoid as hell and trigger happy with DCMA take downs, yes.

Quote

How do I know that Microsoft didn't ask what it would take to play content consistently on their devices? Because content playing consistently on devices is the default thing. DRM is the thing that prevents consistent playback on all devices from happening.

My wording wasn't that Microsoft asked what it would take for said content to be played consistently. It was what were the requirements for content protection so that they they can create a consistent platform. But eh.

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Things would have worked better on Microsoft products if the DRM did not exist. For example right now nobody except people with Kaby Lake processors can view the videos, even though a much larger amount of people would be able to watch if the DRM Microsoft developed and implemented didn't exist.

Except a large amount of those people don't consume 4K content on their Windows computers anyway. Not to mention it's hard to find a 4K TV that isn't a smart TV and chances are, has what is required to play 4K DRM protected content.

 

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Again, Microsoft was in the position to tell them to fuck off. Do you really think the studios has any power of Microsoft, which owns the largest distribution platforms? Again, Microsoft are the gatekeepers. I don't know why you try and make them out to be the victims when they could have just said "no we don't agree to this" and the studios would be forced to cater to a fraction of the audience, or go along with Microsoft's demands.

Yes, because they're the copyright holders and despite what you think, Microsoft does not have a ginormous share of the distribution platforms out there enough to have any significant weight. Hell it doesn't even come close. Hulu, Netflix, and Amazon video do not solely run on Windows.

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How do you know that Readyplay was only created as a response from studios? You're making that assumption based on nothing but your belief that Microsoft is a good company. Microsoft has been in the DRM business (developing and selling DRM solutions) for many many years now (well over 10 years).

Even if it was, Microsoft still had the chance to say no, but they didn't.

I never said Microsoft is a good company. Likewise, I could just redirect this to you and question all your arguments on the flawed assumption that Microsoft is some kind of evil company. Also I don't recall Microsoft having a hand in StarForce, SecuROM, Steamworks, Origin, UPlay, or Denuvo. They're on Windows platforms simply because games are often targeted for Windows.

 

All of this is extremely funny because you use Windows 10.

 

Anyway, I think we had enough.

[PigWithAMustache]

Intel fanboys make me be like  

[Misanthrope]

Regardless of who pushed it, it's incredibly self defeating: any physical  format was going to struggle but with this people will just go "oh...nevermind I'll say on Netflix, yeah I know it doesn't looks as good  but no thanks, byeee" 

[Dabombinable]

6 hours ago, M.Yurizaki said:

This is the video I use, it's a 4K, HDR, HEVC 60FPS encoded so I use it as a gold standard to test my stuff now (it has a non HDR version too): http://demo-uhd3d.com/fiche.php?cat=uhd&id=144

 

I tried playing this on my Intel HD 530 and confirmed, at least with MPC-HC, it was decoding it, but it struggles to not drop frames.

I'm going to have a try at playing it with my GTX 970, then SW decoding (4790K), and finally with my 4790K's HD4600 at stock and then highly overclocked.

[Dabombinable]

7 hours ago, M.Yurizaki said:

This is the video I use, it's a 4K, HDR, HEVC 60FPS encoded so I use it as a gold standard to test my stuff now (it has a non HDR version too): http://demo-uhd3d.com/fiche.php?cat=uhd&id=144

 

I tried playing this on my Intel HD 530 and confirmed, at least with MPC-HC, it was decoding it, but it struggles to not drop frames.

Holy shit. I've found a new CPU stress tester-my 4790K got maxed out by it. And HW decoding seems to have stopped working completely

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Likewise, I could just redirect this to you and question all your arguments on the flawed assumption that Microsoft is some kind of evil company.

No, because my arguments are based on the facts that Microsoft wants to:
1) Make money from selling DRM solutions.

2) Want more reasons to push people to use Windows 10 and their other products such as Edge.

 

Microsoft could port ReadyPlay 3 to Windows 7 and 8 if they wanted, but that would go against their goal number 2. Do you not think the content creators would be happy if more people could watch their content? I am sure they would, but Microsoft wouldn't.

 

Microsoft really are sitting on all the power here. It is their DRM, their platform and their implementation. I really have no idea what kind of interdimensional logic you are using when you come to any conclusion other than "Microsoft are responsible for this situation".

 

 

I haven't looked into it, but I would not be surprised if these other platforms, such as smart TVs that you mentioned, also relies on ReadyPlay, so Microsoft is making money from them too.

In order to use ReadyPlay you need a per unit fee. For each TV sold that supports ReadyPlay, Microsoft gets paid. For each service that uses readyPlay, Microsoft gets paid. For every program that can use ReadyPlay Microsoft gets a fee. The list goes on.

 

Microsoft triple or maybe even quadruple dips with licensing fees for each end user that uses it. Of course they want to make the DRM as appealing as possible to the studios, because if they become the de facto standard then they will make a ton of money from the licensing fees. The studios most likely didn't ask for hardware DRM. Microsoft thought that would appeal to the studios so they added it to try and appeal to them.

 

My arguments are not based on assumptions, nor are they based on "hurr durr Microsoft are evil". My arguments are based on the two facts I mentioned in the start of my post. I also think that Microsoft, being in the "unique position" they describe themselves as being in, could have told the studios to fuck off and release things DRM free. Apple did it with music and it worked.

But Apple was in the business of selling music, so they wanted their product to be as appealing as possible.

Microsoft are in the business of selling DRMs, so they want their DRM to be as appealing as possible to studios.

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

Holy shit. I've found a new CPU stress tester-my 4790K got maxed out by it. And HW decoding seems to have stopped working completely

Which video player are you using? The 900 series doesn't support HEVC fully in hardware, but it should work to some degree.

[Dabombinable]

Just now, LAwLz said:

No, because my arguments are based on the facts that Microsoft wants to:
1) Make money from selling DRM solutions.

2) Want more reasons to push people to use Windows 10 and their other products such as Edge.

 

Microsoft could port ReadyPlay 3 to Windows 7 and 8 if they wanted, but that would go against their goal number 2. Do you not think the content creators would be happy if more people could watch their content? I am sure they would, but Microsoft wouldn't.

 

Microsoft really are sitting on all the power here. It is their DRM, their platform and their implementation. I really have no idea what kind of interdimensional logic you are using when you come to any conclusion other than "Microsoft are responsible for this situation".

 

 

I haven't looked into it, but I would not be surprised if these other platforms, such as smart TVs that you mentioned, also relies on ReadyPlay, so Microsoft is making money from them too.

In order to use ReadyPlay you need a per unit fee. For each TV sold that supports ReadyPlay, Microsoft gets paid. For each service that uses readyPlay, Microsoft gets paid. For every program that can use ReadyPlay Microsoft gets a fee. The list goes on.

 

Microsoft triple or maybe even quadruple dips with licensing fees for each end user that uses it. Of course they want to make the DRM as appealing as possible to the studios, because if they become the de facto standard then they will make a ton of money from the licensing fees. The studios most likely didn't ask for hardware DRM. Microsoft thought that would appeal to the studios so they added it to try and appeal to them.

 

My arguments are not based on assumptions, nor are they based on "hurr durr Microsoft are evil". My arguments are based on the two facts I mentioned in the start of my post. I also think that Microsoft, being in the "unique position" they describe themselves as being in, could have told the studios to fuck off and release things DRM free. Apple did it with music and it worked.

But Apple was in the business of selling music, so they wanted their product to be as appealing as possible.

Microsoft are in the business of selling DRMs, so they want their DRM to be as appealing as possible to studios.

 

 

 

Which video player are you using? The 900 series doesn't support HEVC fully in hardware, but it should work to some degree.

VLC, MPC HC and WMP-HW decoding refuses to work-my GTX 970 sits there idle doing nothing.

[WelshDdraig]

6 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

VLC, MPC HC and WMP-HW decoding refuses to work-my GTX 970 sits there idle doing nothing.

I might give that a try with my 1070. Although if your i7 4790K is getting maxed out, I doubt my i5 4690K will be any good.

[LAwLz]

9 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

VLC, MPC HC and WMP-HW decoding refuses to work-my GTX 970 sits there idle doing nothing.

Maybe the 900 series only supports 8bit color depth. You can check what codecs your GPU reports supporting to DXVA with this program.

If it does say that it supports HEVC Main10 then try playing around with your decoder settings.

 

Start MPC-HC

Select options

Go into External Filters

 

Do you have LAV Video Decoder there? If not, try adding it (under Add Filter...), set it to Prefer and then double click on it. It should bring up more options.

That should take you to LAV Video Decoder (you might also be able to access it by searching in the start menu).

 

Try playing around with the different hardware decoders.  Nvidia CUVID or DXVA2 (copy-back) should work. Just make sure you got HEVC and UHD checked for hardware decoding.

 

 

Edit: Also, even if it does work it will not put any load on the GPU core. It's a separate chip that handles video decoding called PureVideo. If you get GPU-Z and look under the "Sensors" tab you will see "Video Engine Load" listed.

[jagdtigger]

On 2017. 01. 26. at 3:54 PM, M.Yurizaki said:

This is the video I use, it's a 4K, HDR, HEVC 60FPS encoded so I use it as a gold standard to test my stuff now (it has a non HDR version too): http://demo-uhd3d.com/fiche.php?cat=uhd&id=144

 

I tried playing this on my Intel HD 530 and confirmed, at least with MPC-HC, it was decoding it, but it struggles to not drop frames.

 

 

Hmmm, this laptop im using would die from this(x5-z8300 ) but if i get home tomorrow i throw that onto my main rig(4670k, r9 290x)...

 

@LAwLz

Sorry, i quoted your post intead of M.Yurizaki's...

Edited January 27, 2017 by jagdtigger

[Dabombinable]

Just now, LAwLz said:

Maybe the 900 series only supports 8bit color depth. You can check what codecs your GPU reports supporting to DXVA with this program.

If it does say that it supports HEVC Main10 then try playing around with your decoder settings.

 

Start MPC-HC

Select options

Go into External Filters

 

Do you have LAV Video Decoder there? If not, try adding it (under Add Filter...), set it to Prefer and then double click on it. It should bring up more options.

That should take you to LAV Video Decoder (you might also be able to access it by searching in the start menu).

 

Try playing around with the different hardware decoders.  Nvidia CUVID or DXVA2 (copy-back) should work. Just make sure you got HEVC and UHD checked for hardware decoding.

I think its the Nvidia drivers, using DXVA2-Copyback the Intel HD4600 @ 1.75GHz is running at around 50%, with the video still lagging badly but running far better than just the 4790K (when its supposed to be the GTX 970 in action)

 

Edit: I really, really need better thermal paste-the iGPU hit 80^oC, just like the CPU under a heavy load.

[Zodiark1593]

3 hours ago, Dabombinable said:

VLC, MPC HC and WMP-HW decoding refuses to work-my GTX 970 sits there idle doing nothing.

It's only the GTX 960 and 950 of the 900 series that fully support 10 bit HEVC. Vlc doesn't yet support hardware decode of HEVC at any rate. MPC I can confirm works though. 

[Dabombinable]

23 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

It's only the GTX 960 and 950 of the 900 series that fully support 10 bit HEVC. Vlc doesn't yet support hardware decode of HEVC at any rate. MPC I can confirm works though. 

It still has partial support though, and should be under at least a small load. Considering the HD4600 is put under around a 50% load...

[jagdtigger]

Just done downloading  and watching. It seems i have to pus up the frequency even further(currently its running at 4,5 GHz). It was okay-ish, it dropped only 63 frames but the image was choppy at some points and the soung gone here and there... (And this is without down scaling.)

[shermantanker]

On 1/25/2017 at 4:45 PM, M.Yurizaki said:

UHD Blu-Rays require some DRM that Microsoft was forced to implement care of those production studios. From https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/11/netflix-4k-streaming-pc-kaby-lake-cpu-windows-10-edge-browser/

 

 

I'm still going to blame the studios for this.

 

Yeah I don't think it is fair to ding Intel/Microsoft for all this new DRM.

[jagdtigger]

45 minutes ago, shermantanker said:

 

Yeah I don't think it is fair to ding Intel/Microsoft for all this new DRM.

It is since MS made it and intel bent over... DRM and copyright in general becoming a real cancer these days.

[alextulu]

You know what's even more retarded?

 

When Kaby Lake-E is released, it won't work, because Extreme Edition CPUs don't have hardware decoders.

[vrod]

Does anyone watch the movies using the disks? I just rip them with makemkv and port them into my plex library. I suppose you could still do this with any newer 4K blu ray?

 

One thing keeping me from 4K is that they are so expensive at the moment... 

[Fetzie]

On 26/01/2017 at 3:00 AM, VagabondWraith said:

This is worse than game companies and their microtransactions and stupid DLC's, as well as Sony or Microsoft "buying" exclusive game content that the other platform won't get. This is worse because it requires an upgrade to a $350 dollar CPU when people already have capable hardware anyways. To hell with that. I hope these fail miserably.

Not only that, but it potentially requires:

350 dollar CPU

200 dollar motherboard

100 dollars of RAM

An 80 dollar optical drive

 

That's 730 dollars of hardware if you wanted to upgrade from, say, a decently high-end i7 4790K on a Z-chipset motherboard.

[Dabombinable]

7 minutes ago, Fetzie said:

Not only that, but it potentially requires:

350 dollar CPU

200 dollar motherboard

100 dollars of RAM

An 80 dollar optical drive

 

That's 730 dollars of hardware if you wanted to upgrade from, say, a decently high-end i7 4790K on a Z-chipset motherboard.

And this will be the majority of the responses to the people behind this BS:

 

[Fetzie]

22 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

And this will be the majority of the responses to the people behind this BS:

 

I was thinking more along the lines of that scene in South Park where the lads are complaining to their cable tv company about murder porn.

[Mihle]

I ahte Blu-ray DRM.

[Daiyus]

On 1/29/2017 at 10:09 AM, vrod said:

Does anyone watch the movies using the disks? I just rip them with makemkv and port them into my plex library. I suppose you could still do this with any newer 4K blu ray?

 

One thing keeping me from 4K is that they are so expensive at the moment... 

I do. I don't have the storage space to store my entire DVD/BD collection at their respective native qualities and it seems silly to invest in more storage for that purpose when they're already technically stored and readily available at said quality.

 

The only reason I rip CD's and store music files is because I actually travel with my music collection; I don't need my DVD/BD collection at work or on business trips.