AMD Zen Initially only Coming With 8-Core Dies-8 Core and 6 Core Zen CPUs to be the First to Hit the Market

[ZetZet]

2 minutes ago, DocSwag said:

I see what you are saying, but you are saying AMD will price Zen over 100 dollars below Intel's offering, or about 30% lower. I said just below Intel. I'm pretty sure just below doesn't mean 30% lower. I'm saying that AMD may price Zen, say, 40 dollars below Intel.

No I didn't say that. I said, the 6 core is going to have to be 200 to compete with i5 which is 200...

[ZetZet]

2 minutes ago, Lauen said:

and the 6600K isn't? 

lower clockspeeds. And even then, your assumption that intel measures normal load is just bullshit. i5 6600k is 91w tdp and gets 73 under torture. 

[manikyath]

32 minutes ago, ZetZet said:

If the 6 core is 300+ usd rip in pieces AMD.

 

It should be 200, direct competition for the i5. (if it even has the performance of an i5)

if their new 6-core cant match the performance of an i5 in numbercrunching i'd consider that a fail on AMD's part...

[Lauen]

Just now, ZetZet said:

No I didn't say that. I said, the 6 core is going to have to be 200 to compete with i5 which is 200...

You're the only person saying a 6 core + hyperthreading Zen will compete with a 4 core no hyperthreading i5. 

You're being quite negative about the future of AMD. It's in our best interest, all of us, that AMD actually does well with the Zen series. Don't dismiss them just yet. It's basically their last effort, let's all just hope they don't die. Don't assume they'll kick Intels ass either, just hope they don't die. 

[ZetZet]

1 minute ago, Lauen said:

You're the only person saying a 6 core + hyperthreading Zen will compete with a 4 core no hyperthreading i5. 

You're being quite negative about the future of AMD. It's in our best interest, all of us, that AMD actually does well with the Zen series. Don't dismiss them just yet. It's basically their last effort, let's all just hope they don't die. Don't assume they'll kick Intels ass either, just hope they don't die. 

I'm looking at the TDP and manufacturing process. Will it have hyperthreading? Can't find any confirmed source of that. 

[Lauen]

Just now, ZetZet said:

lower clockspeeds. And even then, your assumption that intel measures normal load is just bullshit. i5 6600k is 91w tdp and gets 73 under torture. 

Alright I will agree, after reading a bit on a document Intel published on TDP. Strange how the 6600K is nearly 20 watts under rated TDP in a torture test though. 

[Ansau]

AMD said Zen will have around 40% more IPC than their newest architecture, which is Excavator. This puts the IPC between Ivy Bridge and Haswell.

Then Zen will have a maximum rated TDP of 95w, so we can expect 8 core with SMT to have low speeds to be in that range.

 

People think Zen will be the next big thing, but the only big things in the near future will be facepalms...

Zen will be more of a close gap to intel rather than a new king.

 

 

 

[Notional]

2 minutes ago, ZetZet said:

I'm looking at the TDP and manufacturing process. Will it have hyperthreading? Can't find any confirmed source of that. 

There's very little difference between Intel's 14nm FF and GloFO's 14nm FF LPP. ZEN has SMT (simultaneous multi threading), which is what hyperthreading is. If AMD's version of the i5 will have SMT too, then Intel will have their problem for sure.

[Lauen]

Just now, ZetZet said:

I'm looking at the TDP and manufacturing process. Will it have hyperthreading? Can't find any confirmed source of that. 

 

http://hothardware.com/news/cern-engineer-leaks-amd-zen-architecture-details-claiming-40-percent-increase-in-ipc-up-to-32-cores

Sure it's not AMD-confirmed, but I believe it. At least it's not WCCF.

 

Off topic: I can't use multi-quote for some reason so bear with me. 

[ZetZet]

2 minutes ago, Notional said:

There's very little difference between Intel's 14nm FF and GloFO's 14nm FF LPP. ZEN has SMT (simultaneous multi threading), which is what hyperthreading is. If AMD's version of the i5 will have SMT too, then Intel will have their problem for sure.

Since we don't see Intel rumoring anything I doubt they are worried one bit. You can be sure Intel knows all about how Zen is doing. 

[patrickjp93]

30 minutes ago, Lauen said:

Keep in mind that AMD and Intel rate their TDPs in a different way. Intel use a common use case, while AMD is more like.. 100% AIDA64 type thing. 

No, AMD uses max of common use cases,(gaming)and Intel uses an average of AIDA64, Prime95, Intel Burn Test, and a couple other torture tests. If you throw Prime95 on all 4 cores of an Athlon 860K, you definitely wind up with way more than 95W being produced.

[That Norwegian Guy]

For an 8-core with (expected) Ivy Bridge IPC, the limit is right around $360. The 6-core needs to be under $300.

 

If it has better or worse IPC than Ivy Bridge, then the price would have to be proportionally up or down. Zen is cool and all, but pricing their way out of the market right at launch is a terrible idea.

[DocSwag]

30 minutes ago, ZetZet said:

in theory. IPC is one thing, but if the 6 core runs at 2.5 ghz it won't outperform the i5.

Jim Keller has stated that AMD is using their experience with high frequency designs in Zen.

 

Also, do you seriously believe AMD will come out with a 2.5ghz six core CPU, or are you just trying to show that your point still stands even if by a ridiculous reason?

[patrickjp93]

2 minutes ago, ZetZet said:

Since we don't see Intel rumoring anything I doubt they are worried one bit. You can be sure Intel knows all about how Zen is doing. 

 

4 minutes ago, Notional said:

There's very little difference between Intel's 14nm FF and GloFO's 14nm FF LPP. ZEN has SMT (simultaneous multi threading), which is what hyperthreading is. If AMD's version of the i5 will have SMT too, then Intel will have their problem for sure.

The difference is still 15% on the whole, 22% if just counting SRAM. At 10nm Samsung gets a 5% density boost over Intel's 14nm.

[Lauen]

Just now, patrickjp93 said:

No, AMD uses max of common use cases,(gaming)and Intel uses an average of AIDA64, Prime95, Intel Burn Test, and a couple other torture tests. If you throw Prime95 on all 4 cores of an Athlon 860K, you definitely wind up with way more than 95W being produced.

I did realize that Intel uses torture testing for that, but source for AMDs TDP testing? 

[ZetZet]

2 minutes ago, DocSwag said:

Also, do you seriously believe AMD will come out with a 2.5ghz six core CPU, or are you just trying to show that your point still stands even if by a ridiculous reason?

No, but I don't quite see them hitting the TDP mark with high clockspeeds and more cores.

[Citadelen]

Hmm, I hope the octa-core isn't too expensive, I want to get one later on in the year.

[Notional]

Just now, ZetZet said:

Since we don't see Intel rumoring anything I doubt they are worried one bit. You can be sure Intel knows all about how Zen is doing. 

Personally I don't ZEN will beat Kaby Lake in IPC, but I don't think ZEN needs to either. Remember that -E versions (for X99) and afaik XEON processors are one generation behind. If ZEN can launch their high end chips straight up, and not be one generation behind, that would help a lot.

 

At the end of the day, AMD just have to be competitive. They don't need the koth chips, as most people don't have 5960x' or 24 core XEON's anyways. If you skip the highest end chips and the i5/i7 K SKU's, most of Intels chips, are rather weak and lame.

ZEN has huge potential in the mainstream market, especially considering their superior iGPU's.

 

So ZEN needs to be good enough to get the highend gaming market and the server market to support entire server parks with ZEN CPU's and FirePro GPU's. That alone will get AMD back in the game. The notion that it's all or nothing on the highest end makes no sense.

[FishTea]

If PRICED RIGHT, I might go AMD this time.

[ZetZet]

2 minutes ago, Notional said:

Personally I don't ZEN will beat Kaby Lake in IPC, but I don't think ZEN needs to either. Remember that -E versions (for X99) and afaik XEON processors are one generation behind. If ZEN can launch their high end chips straight up, and not be one generation behind, that would help a lot.

 

At the end of the day, AMD just have to be competitive. They don't need the koth chips, as most people don't have 5960x' or 24 core XEON's anyways. If you skip the highest end chips and the i5/i7 K SKU's, most of Intels chips, are rather weak and lame.

ZEN has huge potential in the mainstream market, especially considering their superior iGPU's.

 

So ZEN needs to be good enough to get the highend gaming market and the server market to support entire server parks with ZEN CPU's and FirePro GPU's. That alone will get AMD back in the game. The notion that it's all or nothing on the highest end makes no sense.

i hope intel finally fixes their naming scheme and makes i3 a 4 core i5 a 6 core and i7 an 8 core.

[patrickjp93]

1 minute ago, DocSwag said:

Jim Keller has stated that AMD is using their experience with high frequency designs in Zen.

 

Also, do you seriously believe AMD will come out with a 2.5ghz six core CPU, or are you just trying to show that your point still stands even if by a ridiculous reason?

Having dedicated FPUs and 256-bit vector units per core is not going to come cheap electrically or thermally, and AMD has said the TDP will be 95W.

 

1 minute ago, Lauen said:

I did realize that Intel uses torture testing for that, but source for AMDs TDP testing? 

Anandtech proved AMD wasn't going by torture tests, but no one actually knows the metric. It does line up rather well with heavy gaming workloads though.

[DocSwag]

People keep saying 40% IPC gain for Zen, but I recall some reports a while back saying it was greater than 40%. Just saying. Plus estimates have put Excavator+40% more around Haswell, not below it.

[Citadelen]

Just now, DocSwag said:

People keep saying 40% IPC gain for Zen, but I recall some reports a while back saying it was greater than 40%. Just saying. Plus estimates have put Excavator+40% more around Haswell, not below it.

Yes AMD has recently been reiterating that Zen is 'on track', for 'greater than 40% improvement in IPC over Excavator' in their numerous slides.

[Lauen]

Just now, DocSwag said:

People keep saying 40% IPC gain for Zen, but I recall some reports a while back saying it was greater than 40%. Just saying. Plus estimates have put Excavator+40% more around Haswell, not below it.

http://www.overclock3d.net/articles/cpu_mainboard/amd_s_zen_will_have_a_greater_than_40_ipc_improvement/1

 

Yeah this is what I found. 

[Lauen]

Just now, patrickjp93 said:

 

Anandtech proved AMD wasn't going by torture tests, but no one actually knows the metric. It does line up rather well with heavy gaming workloads though.

the toms hardware slides posted in this thread earlier showed that power draw in torture tests were like.. one or two watts under rated TDP. 

 

EDIT: in this document, Intel have gotten details from AMD about it.. apparently. 

screencap: