Modders already breaking Oculus exclusivity (updated- June 24th 2016)

[Belgarathian]

On 4/15/2016 at 9:15 PM, Master Disaster said:

To be fair, Lucky Palmer basically said he doesn't give a shit who patches what to run on what after the release of the product but yeah, totally agreed and that is what Valve/HTC have tied to do with OpenVR.

 

Imagine having to buy a specific monitor to work with your GPU, it would mean every time you upgrade one thing you HAVE to upgrade other things as well.

I have a G-Sync monitor...

[grayperview]

Seen it all before, this bollox is just like the battle between VHS and Beta in the 70s and 80's, who ever wins will become the standard, my money is on the vive.

[Sakkura]

12 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Yes, they could copy things from OpenVR into the Oculus SDK. That's how software development works.

Yes, software development happens by copying stuff from other places, especially when the stuff doesn't actually exist in those other places.

[Humbug]

15 hours ago, SamStrecker said:

Vive seems like a good choice to me. No stupid EULAs. Also seeing the massive amount of games that are coming or are planned is very intriguing.

I am most likely purchasing a Vive in June. Obviously I will have a blast with the purpose built VR games.

But also out of the existing traditional games which have been converted to VR one thing I really look forward to is the driving and cockpit experiences. The fantasy of being in the pilot/driver seat is something I loved since I was a kid, so much so that it used to piss me off when devs left out cockpit view from the games.

 

But finally it's gonna be more real than ever.... despite being a seated experience.

 

 

 

 

 

[LAwLz]

7 hours ago, Sakkura said:

Yes, software development happens by copying stuff from other places, especially when the stuff doesn't actually exist in those other places.

You mean ATW? Again, that's a thing that's controlled by the game engine, not the headset. What you are saying makes as little sense as saying "Asus can't just copy the DirectX 12 code and implement it into their monitors". Well, of course they can't, but they don't have to either, because DirectX 12 is something handled by your GPU and game engine, not your monitor.

[BuckGup]

7 hours ago, Humbug said:

I am most likely purchasing a Vive in June. Obviously I will have a blast with the purpose built VR games.

But also out of the existing traditional games which have been converted to VR one thing I really look forward to is the driving and cockpit experiences. The fantasy of being in the pilot/driver seat is something I loved since I was a kid, so much so that it used to piss me off when devs left out cockpit view from the games.

 

But finally it's gonna be more real than ever.... despite being a seated experience.

 

 

 

 

 

I plan to get one around June too. Seeing people flip out over how crazy it is makes me really want one. Also just using cardboard with my phone makes me get lost. I still wonder how bad it is on your eyes though

[Sakkura]

20 hours ago, LAwLz said:

You mean ATW? Again, that's a thing that's controlled by the game engine, not the headset. What you are saying makes as little sense as saying "Asus can't just copy the DirectX 12 code and implement it into their monitors". Well, of course they can't, but they don't have to either, because DirectX 12 is something handled by your GPU and game engine, not your monitor.

It's not in the game engine. That's why it's in the SDK. And do you really think that's the only difference between the Oculus SDK and OpenVR?

 

Monitors are not comparable, because monitors don't have crucial sensor information coming in and being used at the lowest possible latency.

[LAwLz]

Just now, Sakkura said:

It's not in the game engine. That's why it's in the SDK.

I recommend you actually read up on how ATW works because right now it seems like you have no idea. ATW is not done by the headset. What it does is take the regular image generated by the game, warps it according to how the headset is positioned (the Vive provides this information as well, it is used for checking if your head is for example tilted). It does this before every vsync.

You can nitpick and say that it isn't the game engine doing it, because it is a layer between the game engine and the headset, but the point still stands. ATW is not something that relies on the Rift headset. Oculus could make it work on the Vive as well if they wanted.

 

7 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

And do you really think that's the only difference between the Oculus SDK and OpenVR?

It is the only one you have mentioned so that's the one I have focused on. Got any other examples?

 

8 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

Monitors are not comparable, because monitors don't have crucial sensor information coming in and being used at the lowest possible latency.

Monitors are very comparable when we are talking about ATW, because it is not the headsets doing the timewarping. Timewarpning is transparent to the headsets. They just get the final, warped frame without having to do anything (except provide positioning information which both headsets already do for other reasons).

 

 

I am still waiting on that explanation of why Oculus can't add Vive support (neither legally nor technically) that you will write with your own words, and provide sources for all the claims you make. It will be a very interesting read.

[Sakkura]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

I recommend you actually read up on how ATW works because right now it seems like you have no idea. ATW is not done by the headset.

It relies on input from the headset.

[LAwLz]

4 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

It relies on input from the headset.

Yes, it relies on the positional tracking from the headset. Something that both the Vive and the Rift already provides and is therefore not an issue.

It is the exact same data that allows you to tilt your head in-game when you tilt it in real life. It uses the exact same data.

[Sakkura]

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Yes, it relies on the positional tracking from the headset. Something that both the Vive and the Rift already provides and is therefore not an issue.

It is the exact same data that allows you to tilt your head in-game when you tilt it in real life. It uses the exact same data.

It's an issue when the latency is higher in OpenVR than Oculus SDK.

[LAwLz]

25 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

It's an issue when the latency is higher in OpenVR than Oculus SDK.

[Citation Needed] and even if it is, it still wouldn't prevent ATW from being implemented.

[Sakkura]

38 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

[Citation Needed] and even if it is, it still wouldn't prevent ATW from being implemented.

If the data isn't available soon enough, it damn sure wouldn't work.

[LAwLz]

10 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

If the data isn't available soon enough, it damn sure wouldn't work.

Still missing that citation.

[Sakkura]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Still missing that citation.

Still don't care. You're the one making the claim here - the burden of proof is on you.

[LAwLz]

4 hours ago, Sakkura said:

Still don't care. You're the one making the claim here - the burden of proof is on you.

Nope, I did not make the claim that OpenVR has higher latency than the Oculus SDK. You did, and you have not provided any evidence to support that claim. If you read my post you will see that I never made a claim saying OpenVR had the same or lower latency than the Oculus SDK. You also made the claim that having a higher latency would cause ATW to not work. Again, you made the claim so the burden of proof is on you.

 

On top of that, you have not yet provided your own explanation (with sources) as to why it is technically and legally impossible for Oculus to add Vive support to their SDK. That was another claim you made, where the burden of proof is on you.

 

This is the last time I respond until you post those things.

[Sakkura]

13 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Nope, I did not make the claim that OpenVR has higher latency than the Oculus SDK. You did, and you have not provided any evidence to support that claim. If you read my post you will see that I never made a claim saying OpenVR had the same or lower latency than the Oculus SDK. You also made the claim that having a higher latency would cause ATW to not work. Again, you made the claim so the burden of proof is on you.

 

On top of that, you have not yet provided your own explanation (with sources) as to why it is technically and legally impossible for Oculus to add Vive support to their SDK. That was another claim you made, where the burden of proof is on you.

 

This is the last time I respond until you post those things.

You're the one claiming Oculus could just implement it like that. Prove it, then. The burden of proof is on you.

 

I have provided evidence for my claims, unlike you.

[LAwLz]

43 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

You're the one claiming Oculus could just implement it like that. Prove it, then. The burden of proof is on you.

Yes they could. Want my proof? Look at the modder. You know, the mod which has actually made it work already. If some hobby modder can do it in his spare time then a big company like Facebook can do it too. Also, they could just import the code from OpenVR and with some modifications it would work. Again, this is how software development works. You reuse code all the time.

 

No you have not provided evidence for any of your claims. You have not provided evidence that OpenVR has a higher latency. You have not provided evidence that Oculus are legally incapable of adding support. You have not provided evidence that Valve are blocking Oculus from adding it in a technical level. Those are all claims you have made, and you have not provided any evidence whatsoever to support it. Even if we took the Reddit post from Palmer as absolute proof, you still have made a lot of wild assumptions and claims that you yourself came up with after reading that post. For example Palmer's post never mentioned anything about them being legally unable, or technically unable to do it, but those were the claims made.

 

I broke my promise that I wouldn't post again but this time I mean it. There is no point in arguing with someone that doesn't understand what they are talking about (hence why you refuse to give an explanation using your own words, you are just parroting what others have said) and that refuse to listen to facts (such as the OpenVR license allowing interoperability, but the license for the Oculus SDK doesn't).

[Sakkura]

30 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Yes they could. Want my proof? Look at the modder. You know, the mod which has actually made it work already.

Now you're just being obtuse. He has not made it work. There is no Async Timewarp with his workaround, which is nowhere near providing a polished experience. Which is what Oculus wants to deliver with the Oculus SDK.

 

And yes, there may not be much point in arguing with someone that doesn't understand what they are talking about. So please go educate yourself first, if you decide to post again.

[Humbug]

21/5/2016- Update

 

The cat and mouse game has begun as predicted. In their latest patch Oculus has managed to successfully break the mod by adding adding a DRM check which prevents the games from running unless you physically have an Oculus Rift HMD connected to your computer.

 

Of course the official patch notes do not mention this change

https://forums.oculus.com/community/discussion/36575/oculus-app-1-4-release-notes

 

The creator of the crossVR mod has confirmed it on reddit

So I was able to test the new update and I can indeed confirm that it breaks Revive support. From my preliminary research it seems that Oculus has also added a check whether the Oculus Rift headset is connected to their Oculus Platform DRM. And while Revive fools the application in thinking the Rift is connected, it does nothing to make the actual Oculus Platform think the headset is connected. Because only the Oculus Platform DRM has been changed this means that none of the Steam or standalone games were affected. Only games published on the Oculus Store that use the Oculus Platform SDK are affected. A temporary workaround if you have an Oculus Rift CV1 or DK2 is to keep the headset and camera connected while starting the game. That should still allow you to use your Vive headset to play the actual game, since Revive itself is still working. tl;dr Oculus prevented people who don't own an Oculus Rift from playing Oculus Home games.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4k8fmm/new_oculus_update_breaks_revive/

 

Whether this will be a sustainable strategy by Oculus remains to be seen. It's not going to be easy for them because this is the PC ecosystem. It's not the ideal place to start a platform war. Modders and crackers will generally find a way to make things work. Keep in mind all of the above developments have happened within two months.

 

Prior to this latest patch things had been progressing well for the Revive mod. More features and user-friendliness had been added, and more exclusive games had been working.

 

But also a lot of the devs of previously exclusive games (e.g. Project Cars) added official support for the Vive so for those the mod wasn't needed anymore. Although this latest development is unfortunate, the growing catalog of VR games means that now the importance of Oculus exclusives had diminished greatly. It was primarily a concern during launch time.

 

 

 

 

[Humbug]

Quote

 

Jason Rubin- Oculus Studio head

in defence of paid exclusives

 

“The view that exclusives are evil is based on a fundamentally flawed understanding of business itself, that’s a completely self-interested way of looking at the world. In any perfect world, all content would be free and go to everybody.

 

That’s not the world we live in. We live in a world where things cost money to make, and as a result of that, business decisions need to be made by various parties that sometimes lead to things coming out in one place and not another place.

 

In a world in which Oculus went out and spent 10s of millions of dollars making software and that value accrued to its competitors, its competitors would say ‘we shouldn’t spend on software because we’re getting all of theirs. What we should do is take our money and undercut their price or spend it on marketing, or do something else that gives us a competitive advantage. So the only way you create an ecosystem in which people are spending, is by saying ‘I get benefit of what I do, you get benefit of what you do.’ In a perfect world, all VR companies would be doing the same thing, and we’d all have content that is good and exclusive, and we would all be learning from each other’s strengths.

And that’s exactly what’s happening with Sony. We’re friends with [Shuhei Yoshida], we’re very close. He shows us his games, we show Sony ours. We saw Rigs. There were ideas in there that were brilliant. [We] took them and put them in other games! They do the same with us. That is the game industry, that’s the film industry too. It’s just what we do.

 

The truth of the matter is, in a business that has a zero installed base as of the day it launches, it’s hard for developers to say ‘we’re gonna put millions and millions of dollars into a game’ because there isn’t a return. Those games simply wouldn’t exist unless somebody says ‘we think you should do these games!’ And those games then attract people to VR, and more people in VR make other developers who didn’t get that deal see the benefit of the R&D, and they get a bigger installed base to invest more, and that kickstarts things to the next level.

 

So in a world in which Oculus invested the money and then said ’here, everyone should have it,’ we actually wouldn’t invest the money. We would stop, because there would be no reason to do it if everyone else was getting benefit. We would have to match their price, match their marketing, do everything that they’re doing. So that doesn’t work.

 

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2016/04/25/in-defense-of-exclusives-oculus-vrs-jason-rubin/#7e698f463fb0

[suicidalfranco]

wonder if tis possible to make some sort of HDMI/USB pass through that makes the software believe that whatever gets HMD gets plugged through it is a rift. Something similar to those accessories that allows consoles peasants owners to use other vendors controllers on their boxes

[Humbug]

23 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

wonder if tis possible to make some sort of HDMI/USB pass through that makes the software believe that whatever gets HMD gets plugged through it is a rift. Something similar to those accessories that allows consoles peasants owners to use other vendors controllers on their boxes

seems a bit extreme.

 

Would be easier to just do it in software.

[suicidalfranco]

24 minutes ago, Humbug said:

seems a bit extreme.

 

Would be easier to just do it in software.

but would be harder to break if it where hardware. 

[Humbug]

Oculus Response when asked about the latest patch

 

When asked about the update, Oculus spokesperson Jim Redner told Ars that the app's new entitlement check was added "to curb piracy and protect games and apps that developers have worked so hard to make. This update wasn’t targeted at a specific hack." He also claimed that the entitlement check's functionality is "common in commerce platforms that validates a user has purchased a piece of software."

 

http://arstechnica.co.uk/gaming/2016/05/revive-play-rift-games-on-vive-blocked-by-oculus/