Employment for ex-cons

[Totallycasual]

I completely understand certain restrictions for people convicted of crimes such as a thief not being able to get a job handling money and things along those lines but it seems like once someone has a serious conviction they're destined to live on the fringes of society forever.

 

A very good friend of mine is being repeatedly denied access to work because of his past, its frustrating to see someone that has paid their debt to society be treated like a leper to the point where their chances of re-offending get higher and higher the longer they're left out in the cold. Seems like a very random thread but i would be interested to hear if it plays out the same in your country, do you feel like most people deserve a genuine shot at a new life? 

[AresKrieger]

Well in the US you are required to state any felonies you've committed if asked in a job application (which they usually do), I wouldn't see a problem with the outcasting of felons if only truly vile acts were considered, rather than just some stupid things like drug charges comprising most felony charges, so really it depends on the crime on whether I agree with exiling the person.

[Totallycasual]

100% agreed, if it comes to rapists and stuff like that i'd rather put one in the back of their head and be done with it. If they absolutely have to be released castration should be a parole requirement. 

 

My friend was only inside for drug importation, served his time quietly and is now trying to become a productive member of society but cant seem to get a break. Its hard to watch him struggle with the outside world. 

[SImoHayha]

The problem with this is that no one wants to hire or take the unfortunate chance for cons.

 

It just depends, if they had rehab and are actually not doing anything wrong anymore and are clean I would hire them. Everyone deserves a second chance. Even criminals if they're willing to change from their evil deeds to good deeds.

I mean what happens when they actually try to do something good and getting a job? Well they get fucked over, thus leading to the repeated cycle of crime, because why should they keep trying to apply for a job if all they get is rejected? Hell they would go back to the previous thing they did because they simply can't get a job anymore legally.

 

[maulemall]

1 hour ago, Newenthusiast said:

100% agreed, if it comes to rapists and stuff like that i'd rather put one in the back of their head and be done with it. If they absolutely have to be released castration should be a parole requirement. 

 

My friend was only inside for drug importation, served his time quietly and is now trying to become a productive member of society but cant seem to get a break. Its hard to watch him struggle with the outside world. 

They still Have mobile execution vans in China for importers and they run like clockwork..

In fact Your friend knew what he was doing and knew the consequence.. I don't see the problem.

[Totallycasual]

Just now, maulemall said:

They still Have mobile execution vans in China for importers and they run like clockwork..

In fact Your friend knew what he was doing and knew the consequence.. I don't see the problem.

He served 10 years and successfully completed his parole, how many years does he need to be punished for something he did in his teens? I really don't see why you bring up China, you can get sent to a work camp there for speaking out against the government, cant really compare that to Australia. 

[maulemall]

1 minute ago, Newenthusiast said:

He served 10 years and successfully completed his parole, how many years does he need to be punished for something he did in his teens? I really don't see why you bring up China, you can get sent to a work camp there for speaking out against the government, cant really compare that to Australia. 

I brought up china to show that he got off easy.. As far being a teen well that's just sad but hey all the people that got fucked up, fucked over or addicted because of him and people like him don't give a shit..

you don't see all the crime from people that needed the money to get his product..

Tell him to man up and deal with it.

[Totallycasual]

You're completely missing the point, we live in a modern society that at least on paper believes in second chances and people being able to come back into the fold once they have done their time. While we as individuals may feel very strongly about certain crimes the fact still remains that once people have a criminal conviction it has a massive impact on their ability to make a future for themselves once rehabilitated.   

[Bajantechnician]

12 minutes ago, Newenthusiast said:

You're completely missing the point, we live in a modern society that at least on paper believes in second chances and people being able to come back into the fold once they have done their time. While we as individuals may feel very strongly about certain crimes the fact still remains that once people have a criminal conviction it has a massive impact on their ability to make a future for themselves once rehabilitated.   

but as he said

17 minutes ago, maulemall said:

I. As far being a teen well that's just sad but hey all the people that got fucked up, fucked over or addicted because of him and people like him don't give a shit..

 

 

did he do time for the people he got addicted. lets take little billy. he kills someone oevr 3 pounds of coke goes to jail for 30 years. did you friend do the time that caused billy to commit this in the first place?

get my point?

1 hour ago, Newenthusiast said:

100% agreed, if it comes to rapists and stuff like that i'd rather put one in the back of their head and be done with it. If they absolutely have to be released castration should be a parole requirement. 

 

My friend was only inside for drug importation, served his time quietly and is now trying to become a productive member of society but cant seem to get a break. Its hard to watch him struggle with the outside world. 

castration?

[maulemall]

your missing the point .In My business I deal in trust.

I don't have time to look over someone all day every day. He isn't trustworthy. And I am not his mama.

 That's reality. I have people who work for me that I have to look out for as well.

Why would I take a chance and jeopardize their ability to feed their kids.

[Big-G]

44 minutes ago, maulemall said:

I brought up china to show that he got off easy.. As far being a teen well that's just sad but hey all the people that got fucked up, fucked over or addicted because of him and people like him don't give a shit..

you don't see all the crime from people that needed the money to get his product..

Tell him to man up and deal with it.

That's the type of mentality that will make our society destroy itself one-day.

 

We as humans need to be a little more compassionate... if they've done the time and don't illustrate visible signs of falling back into habit, then they should be allowed to contribute again... hell... we all make mistakes to a lesser or larger degree... most of us make amends for it... and we are forgiven and allowed to continue to live in harmony with the rest of society. Why not them?

[Big-G]

33 minutes ago, Bajantechnician said:

did he do time for the people he got addicted. lets take little billy. he kills someone oevr 3 pounds of coke goes to jail for 30 years. did you friend do the time that caused billy to commit this in the first place?

How long is a piece of string? Does compassion mean nothing in society anymore... all are victims... even the one's victimizing...

[Bajantechnician]

Just now, GidonsClaw said:

How long is a piece of string? Does compassion mean nothing in society anymore... all are victims... even the one's victimizing...

that is true.

maybe his friend sold drugs, because his parents were druggies, and left him be. mabe he did drugs to make himself feel better.

I accept your point as valid

[Bajantechnician]

7 minutes ago, GidonsClaw said:

How long is a piece of string? Does compassion mean nothing in society anymore... all are victims... even the one's victimizing...

do you mind if i put ur quote in my sig?

[SImoHayha]

1 hour ago, maulemall said:

your missing the point .In My business I deal in trust.

I don't have time to look over someone all day every day. He isn't trustworthy. And I am not his mama.

 That's reality. I have people who work for me that I have to look out for as well.

Why would I take a chance and jeopardize their ability to feed their kids.

 

Because not all criminals are all criminals. When a person gets sentenced to jail and a lawyer to help them fight against the sentence. 9/10 people will go to jail because it has way less issues, by issues I mean money. Even if you manage to get a lawyer to help yo, you still need to pay for the case costs to some extent and have to wait extra time for your sentence to be heard.

 

We live in a justice system that flows on the supply of money. If you got enough money you can pay your bail. If you don't your put into jail, not to mention other fucked up systems which screw over the.

[maulemall]

44 minutes ago, GidonsClaw said:

That's the type of mentality that will make our society destroy itself one-day.

 

We as humans need to be a little more compassionate... if they've done the time and don't illustrate visible signs of falling back into habit, then they should be allowed to contribute again... hell... we all make mistakes to a lesser or larger degree... most of us make amends for it... and we are forgiven and allowed to continue to live in harmony with the rest of society. Why not them?

Civilization will fall because some drug dealer ... A Merchant of death and despair is going to have to earn his way back into civilization..

 

Oh My... Is that the four horsemen approaching??

 

 

[EIijah]

I work in a large retailer and we have enough trouble with employees stealing, The company has recently invested in new safes to keep all the cashiers accountable for their tills. Often ex-cons have theft somewhere on their record and that's basically the hardest thing for companies to look past. I do think some people should be given a second chance, but only in jobs where you wouldn't really need to be trusted that much.

[maulemall]

26 minutes ago, Ramamataz said:

 

Because not all criminals are all criminals. When a person gets sentenced to jail and a lawyer to help them fight against the sentence. 9/10 people will go to jail because it has way less issues, by issues I mean money. Even if you manage to get a lawyer to help yo, you still need to pay for the case costs to some extent and have to wait extra time for your sentence to be heard.

 

We live in a justice system that flows on the supply of money. If you got enough money you can pay your bail. If you don't your put into jail, not to mention other fucked up systems which screw over the.

His guilt was never in question so all that you posted has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. And as an aside and speaking of money. How much money does it cost to put police on the street? How much money does it cost to investigate his crime. How much does it cost to try him.  ALL of these are things I pay for... Plus all the peripherals surrounding him and his Crime.

 If he had just plead guilty from the beginning you would have a point but it was his choice to lie and plead innocent.

All expenses were from a continuance of his crime and the dishonesty of him.

 

You want him you are more than welcome to him ..

[Totallycasual]

@Maulemall You should give this a watch. 

 

[Dark_Fuzzy]

7 minutes ago, maulemall said:

snip

For one no one said he pleaded innocent.

 

Please tell me why someone should be punished his whole life because of something he did as a teen?

 

[Volbet]

Look at it like this:

If you run a company and you get two applications that both show the same amount of education and work experience, however, one is from a commited felon. Who are you going to hire? 

When a business owner hires someone they are gambling with their own money, so why wouldn't they put their money on the safest bet? 

If you hire the ex-convict there is a change that he might break the law again. He has shown the will to do so before and he can therefor do it again.

The change of the felon breaking the law again might be small, but that change is probably still bigger than the non-felon breaking the law. 

So, putting your money on the non-felon would be the safest bet, and they are therefor more likely to be hired. 

 

Is this a bullshit reason? It might very well be, but as a business owner that would be my reasoning. 

33 minutes ago, Newenthusiast said:

@Maulemall You should give this a watch. 

 

As with everything I would recommend that you read into the sources that are used. 

What the speaker in the video is failing to mention is that the ´Rat Park´ experiements done by Bruce Alexander aren't that credible. 

They have failed to be replicated by other researchers and one study even found that both cages of rats showed a decreasing interest in morphine laced water over time

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9148292?dopt=Abstract

 

He also mentions that the heroin addicted soldiers from Vietnam didn't suffers from withdrawls, which I haven't been able to find a single source for. 

The only sources I have been able to find suggest that the soldiers were forced to go cold turkey while in Vietnam. They mention nothing about withdrawls or lack thereof. 

 

He also seems to forget the fact that an estimated 10 million Americans are thought to be addticed to prescribtion opiates: https://www.drugabuse.gov/about-nida/legislative-activities/testimony-to-congress/2016/americas-addiction-to-opioids-heroin-prescription-drug-abuse

So the drugs administered by doctors are also quite addictive. 

[Totallycasual]

In the context of this conversation i was more interested in the treatment of addicts and how we as a society handle them, the war on drugs as we're currently fighting it just isn't a war that can be won.  In my opinion addicts that are in and out of prison committing crimes to support their habits are in many ways victims of bad policy, if we start treating addicts as people with a genuine illness things will change all the way up the food chain. 

 

Right now we're empowering the dealers and importers while spending obscene amounts of money on investigations, prosecutions and incarceration.  Its a massive vicious circle that wont change unless we reevaluate how we're tackling it.  I've worked extensively within the Justice Department and Corrections, trust me when i say that the entire system is a joke.  

[Serin]

I'm not quite sure that humanity has quite decided on the project of rehabilitation. Civilised humanity anyway.
Just this week in Australia a house that was set up to house and help prisoners returning to the world was attacked... And whilst I understand the instinct for *vigilante* justice I don't think those who chucked the bricks had thought it through very much.
Some of those who supported the attacks went so far as to demand that the house be shut down and the ex-cons move somewhere else. Where? Some other town that they will be kicked out of again ad nauseam? Back to jail despite completing their sentences? Or just condemned to live on the streets anonymously for fear of more so-called vigilante justice as a welfare recipient?

We really must decide whether we actually believe in rehabilitation or not. This limbo of which you speak that so many ex-cons find themselves in is rather unjust in my opinion - a societal thing that needs to change along with our methods of rehabilitation.

Tl/dr yes, if we believe in rehab we must then allow people to attempt to move on and better their lives.

[ShadowCaptain]

1 hour ago, Serin said:

I'm not quite sure that humanity has quite decided on the project of rehabilitation. Civilised humanity anyway.

 

I think people like to believe they are more civilised than they are, I bet on paper people would say they would hire an ex-con, but I bet if faced with the situation for real, they would think twice

Good intentions mean nothing without good actions.
 

[Serin]

23 hours ago, ShadowCaptain said:

 

I think people like to believe they are more civilised than they are, I bet on paper people would say they would hire an ex-con, but I bet if faced with the situation for real, they would think twice

Good intentions mean nothing without good actions.
 

Oh I was more referring to the uncivilised people whose idea of rehab is pushing a person off a tall building and letting the local deity deal with it, but yes. It seems an odd contradiction in our societies.