FBI Director Admits under Oath that iPhone Case would Set a Precedent; Wants 175 iPhones Unlocked

[ChineseChef]

2 hours ago, suxen said:

They are not demanding information from them, they are demanding a re-write of software.

This is the crux of the issue to me, forcing a company to perform additional unnecessary work that makes their product less usable/secure/quality.  The real issue is that the software is designed to only be accessible by the person with the access code, and courts have already decided that a person cannot be compelled to provide information that is only contained in their mind.  That whole fifth amendment thing.

 

Having a legit warrant, which they do, gives them legal authority to access all the data on the phone.  Which makes the arguments of "privacy" a moot point, they can already compel the opening of a safe, or handing over documents, the phone is simply a more advanced safe in function.

 

The reason this is an issue, is because if the courts can force a company to write new software that degrades their current product/security, what else can they compel?  At what point is the court forcing slave like conditions?  What if the engineers refuse to write the code?  It is after all just a job for them, they can quit instead of writing the code.  But are they allowed to not write the code?  At what point can the gov't force companies and individuals to build/write/make something that is genuinely to the detriment of the company/consumer/user?  They company could be forced, but what if the employees refuse?  What if the company is unable to make the demanded item/code?  How can the gov't prove the code/item can be made the company simply is "playing dumb"?  What if the company says it will be too expensive, and the gov't won't pay?  Is the company liable for not having sufficient knowledge or money to build unexpected and unplanned software/hardware?  Is the company allowed to simply close down?

 

These things will start becoming more likely to have to be answered as every company starts to make their software such that they can't access it.  Will companies be allowed to make software that can be secured in such a way that literally only the user can access it?  Will users be allowed to use third party or custom software that secures their devices?  Will the USA make it illegal to use software from outside the USA? Will it become illegal to use non-gov't approved encryption?  How long will it take for these backdoors to be exploited by hackers or "hostile" nations?  Why wouldn't China or Russia, or any other nation devote massive resources to getting into the backdoors once they know it is there.  Once the world knows that all devices/software/hardware in the USA has a backdoor, how quickly will the rest of the world stop buying anything from the USA?

 

The gov't can currently force companies to use costly safety and environmental measures, so what is to prevent adding "security" measures to that?  The masses and the political leaders decided that environmental measures are worth regulations to force companies to comply.  With the current US political climate, politicians could likely get something pushed through to make it illegal for companies to refuse or even challenge requests from law enforcement.  We already have secret courts and gag orders, patriot act, it isn't really a stretch to think they could get something passed.

 

Some tough questions ahead, and I can't see the gov't giving up on wanting access until that access blows up in their face so badly that even they can't ignore how bad of an idea it was.

[suxen]

26 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

 

[Lethal Seraph]

3 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Pretty sure this case is going all the way to Supreme court now especially since everyone both in tech and public are equally divided on where to stand

If the enemies wanted us divided, they're definitely winning.

[GeekJump]

Damn stupid Director! You're one of the heads of US Law enforcement, with all your exp. you should at least know how to be sneaky about it! Should've stuck with the "it's only this one time" story....

 

I agree with both sides arguments - until now. The first time I actually side with Apple >_>'

 

Plus, doesn't he know the moment all the tech giants band together - you lose. He just made it even that much harder for the FBI.

[Albatross]

Well...here's hoping that slim chance of this going for the better good actually happens.

 

6 hours ago, SirNumbers said:

If apple wins I'll buy a iPhone 

I will too. Hell, I think I might even if they lose for the goddamn good they are trying to do.

[suxen]

4 minutes ago, ChineseChef said:

This is the crux of the issue to me, forcing a company to perform additional unnecessary work that makes their product less usable/secure/quality.  The real issue is that the software is designed to only be accessible by the person with the access code, and courts have already decided that a person cannot be compelled to provide information that is only contained in their mind.  That whole fifth amendment thing.

 

Having a legit warrant, which they do, gives them legal authority to access all the data on the phone.  Which makes the arguments of "privacy" a moot point, they can already compel the opening of a safe, or handing over documents, the phone is simply a more advanced safe in function.

 

The reason this is an issue, is because if the courts can force a company to write new software that .................

Sorry, I shortened your quote for readabilities sake.

 

You ask some seriously interesting questions.  I must admit, while reading them I first felt my eyes open, then I realised that the answers to these questions could be unbelievably Orwellian, depending on what is ruled.  This is why I brought up the supreme court earlier, we could potentially be dealing with some incredibly serious rulings, and I can really see this one going the whole 9 yards and possibly redefining privacy and digital laws we have only just become accustomed to.

 

I particularly like your slave analogy, that to me seems to be touching on arguments the FBI simply won't be able to withstand.  Where does there jurisdiction end in situations like this?  Can they ask a company to pour resources into lessening its own security for the sake of the Bureau? 

 

I hope my fright at the potential conclusion for this case is a good pointer at how weak the FBI's case is, I need to know more...

[suxen]

9 minutes ago, GeekJump said:

Damn stupid Director! You're one of the heads of US Law enforcement, with all your exp. you should at least know how to be sneaky about it! Should've stuck with the "it's only this one time" story....

 

I agree with both sides arguments - until now. The first time I actually side with Apple >_>'

 

Plus, doesn't he know the moment all the tech giants band together - you lose. He just made it even that much harder for the FBI.

Same, now we know - I'm with Apple.

[RedRound2]

1 hour ago, Trik'Stari said:

How was this even a question? Everything judges do sets a precedent.

Comey said this would be a one time thing and Apple back-lashed saying that its never this one time. And now look what just happened.

[ChineseChef]

4 minutes ago, suxen said:

Sorry, I shortened your quote for readabilities sake. (No need to apologize)

 

You ask some seriously interesting questions.  I must admit, while reading them I first felt my eyes open, then I realised that the answers to these questions could be unbelievably Orwellian, depending on what is ruled.  

 

I particularly like your slave analogy, -snip-

I felt kind of the same when I saw someone else make the argument about how far can they go to enforce the creation of such a tool.  It is a scary thought, and I really don't see it getting better until it gets much much worse.

[Trik'Stari]

17 minutes ago, Lethal Seraph said:

If the government wanted us divided, they're definitely winning.

fixed that for you.

[Unhelpful]

27 minutes ago, Albatross said:

Well...here's hoping that slim chance of this going for the better good actually happens.

 

I will too. Hell, I think I might even if they lose for the goddamn good they are trying to do.

Yeah, same. If this is just marketing, as the FBI claims, then it's damn good marketing  

[Albatross]

3 hours ago, JoeyDM said:

Yeah, same. If this is just marketing, as the FBI claims, then it's damn good marketing  

 

It isn't being done marketing. At least, I don't believe it is. I worked for Apple and during that horrible experience I found that they took the security and privacy of their customers very, very seriously. I honestly believe they believe in this.

[Unhelpful]

1 minute ago, Albatross said:

 

It isn't being done marketing. At least, I don't believe it is. I worked for Apple and during that horrible experience I found that they took the security and privacy of their customers very, very seriously. I honestly believe they believe in this.

I know it isn't, hence the "if," but it is acting as great marketing regardless. Good deeds are great marketing.

[suxen]

10 minutes ago, JoeyDM said:

I know it isn't, hence the "if," but it is acting as great marketing regardless. Good deeds are great marketing.

Hmm I don't know, I agree with Albatross.

 

It is definitely good marketing at the moment, as it is obvious Apple's security is beyond the USA's security agencies abilities however I would imagine Apple are more concerned about the future - what if the ruling doesn't go their way?  If so, Apple can check off "unbreakable security" from their list.

 

My point being is they have no time to consider how the current situation is affecting them, they are almost certainly worried about the market cap they may lose if they lose this battle, however.

[Albatross]

3 hours ago, JoeyDM said:

I know it isn't, hence the "if," but it is acting as great marketing regardless. Good deeds are great marketing.

Well then that's just a plus for Apple!

[Unhelpful]

17 minutes ago, suxen said:

 

Yes. I also agree with @Albatross. I don't think it was intended to be marketing, it just has the same effect that good marketing has, as good deeds can often do.

[Entropy]

What is it with you folks and being so opposed to investigating the contacts and correspondences of criminals? A back door to all devices is one thing,  but requesting that a criminal's device is able to be unlocked by the manufacturer physically is not something I'm against in any capacity. Digitally accessing a device is a whole other cup of shit. 

 

Law enforcement has to keep up with technological advancements or they can't do their job in an ever increasingly digital world. 

[FPSwithaWacomTablet]

Lol, imagine if one of the apps happened to be a script that crashes all of the FBI's servers when they do unlock it...

 

Imagine the Pandora Box on this one if the FBI did win.  

 

I reckon Apple is gonna hire a 3rd-party company that handles the backdoor; obviously in their control. Or even better, split the iOS division up and have them operate in another country . Then the legal pain will continue to arise

 

I mean Apple already does a ton of tax evasion and labour deals with other countries, why not extend it a bit further...

[78415_1454179793]

Conveniently, Scalia dies before this case is brought up, where it will likely land in the Supreme Court before long. Scalia would have been against this completely. If the FBI wins, it will effectively make any security programs that do not include a backdoor illegal - basically guaranteeing insecurity of all digital media except those in government. It will set precedent that no person is allowed to be secured in their possessions of ANY type against government intrusion. Even bank vaults would have to be accessible to the FBI via backdoor without consulting the bank itself.

[samcool55]

This is EXACLY what i expected!

At first sight it looked harmless because you know, it's just 1 phone and 1 case. But as soon as you say ok once, it's completely ruined.

New cases will pop up and point to apple to do whatever they did again because they have shown they can, and before you know they have access to everything.

 

Same with the nsa spying, first it was targetted to a specific person, and look how it is now. Also don't even think laws will change things because in the end laws don't mean sh*t.

 

Things like this always start innocent and small, but end up in a disaster. It's important to never give in and keep saying no, because no is no and people have to learn to accept that. Simple as that.

[TechGod]

7 hours ago, KemoKa said:

 

This outlines just how horrifying the situation is in the grands scheme of things. Because stuff like this is already happening today.

Why even watch that channel? They are ridiculously Anti-Apple. 

[SurvivorNVL]

I am on the side of Apple and because of all this, to show my support, I'll take an iPhone 7.  Preferably with an OLED display and NVME storage.  I will also take an iPad Pro for all that Fallout Shelter real-estate.

[KemoKa]

14 minutes ago, TechGod said:

Why even watch that channel? They are ridiculously Anti-Apple. 

They're ridiculously Anti-Apple for numerous, concise and valid reasons. But they do come out on the side of apple in this case. But not for the reasons that everyone assumes they do.

 

And you can't deny... Wendell is freaking awesome.

[TechGod]

Just now, KemoKa said:

They're ridiculously Anti-Apple for numerous, concise and valid reasons. But they do come out on the side of apple in this case. But not for the reasons that everyone assumes they do.

 

And you can't deny... Wendell is freaking awesome.

Wendell is legit. Logan is pathetic. To be honest, a lot of their reasons are kinda stupid as well. 

[Atmos]

8 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

They want a backdoor. They dont want to come to apple everytime they get an iPhone and they want something like a master key to retrieve all the data

This will initially start as 'not big of a problem'to something like what NSA does now but to far worse extent invading into everyone's personal space

I never said what the fbi wanted; I'm aware they want the ability to do it themselves and that's the problem, that's where my disconnect is and why I so thoroughly dislike this whole ordeal. This also wouldn't really be an invasion into everyones space, I think you're wrong on that. The FBI isn't nearly as able to keep quiet as the NSA was and simply wouldn't be able to get away with mass data-excavation. What would happen though is that no one can keep a secret forever, this masterkey wouldn't stay with the fbi. It would "accidentally" fall into the hands of other governments, groups, and people with both good and bad intentions. And while apple may be able to patch out their encryption to avoid the misuse of that masterkey, the damage done before they can patch it out would be mind-boggling, especially given all the personal information people keep on their phones.