Should America ban guns?

[Real_PhillBert]

There are countless instances in which guns have been used for protection. Most of which are never reported because shots are never fired. Stopping mugging, assaults, or other events where just the sight of a gun stops the crime. Plenty of interesting YouTube vlogs of people talking about time they pulled their gun out. "Justifiable homicide" is what you're looking for I think though. Sadly these events are not covered nearly as much as crimes with guns occur.

As far as storing, there are quick access boxes which can be unlocked quickly for defense purposes. Or if you're single and don't have kids, I don't see any problems having a gun ready to rock and roll by the bedside. Maybe just lock it up in the morning.

 

100% this.

 

I have no kids and live in a neighborhood that leaves some to be desired. There is a hot handgun in my bedside table every night, and I unlock my safe (Closet of the master bedroom) where my 10.5" AR-15 SBR is. If the zombies attack in the middle of the night I hand off the handgun to the girlfriend, and I grab the rifle. I have been kicking around the idea of picking up a Sig MPX to SBR and use as a girlfriend HD gun, but I really dont need to spend $2k setting up another gun. 

 

My dad always had a .357 mag in a lockbox under his bed when I was growing up, and that was a great neighborhood. 

[Goldensapling]

Comments like this just show a lack of understanding of current gun laws.

I can guarantee you that there are several pawn shops in my town where you can walk in, get a quick background check (a few days process) and get a gun. It's not difficult, regardless of the laws that are currently in place. It's nowhere near the level it is to get a gun in Europe or most other 1st World Countries.

[AresKrieger]

They don't need to be banned, they just need to to have much stricter laws. Considering that you can basically walk into a gun store, flash your ID to say you're over 18, and buy one just like that.

You've never bought a gun before, the only thing that isn't regulated is private sale, which honestly how are you going to regulate that

[Penny5837]

It's never going to help anything. If anything Americans will revolt and cause alot of problems.

[Goldensapling]

You've never bought a gun before, the only thing that isn't regulated is private sale, which honestly how are you going to regulate that

If they internet can teach me more about computers than a college can teach my High School tech department, then it can teach me about gun purchases. and I know of the process, because my family (not immediate, thankfully) seem to think that there should be a gun in every room. Not regulating a private sale is the whole argument of "criminals will get them anyway". Like I said, all we need is a lot more in-depth application process to actually get a gun. I personally like Japan's system.

[Real_PhillBert]

I can guarantee you that there are several pawn shops in my town where you can walk in, get a quick background check (a few days process) and get a gun. It's not difficult, regardless of the laws that are currently in place. It's nowhere near the level it is to get a gun in Europe or most other 1st World Countries.

 

You did skip over the background check part in your other post...

[Goldensapling]

You did skip over the background check part in your other post...

I used a hyperbole. I said basically can, because I like to exaggerate for no particular reason

 

Come to think of it, why am I involved in the post? I don't care about gun control either way really    

*drops keyboard and leaves*

[Real_PhillBert]

I used a hyperbole. I said basically can, because I like to exaggerate for no particular reason

 

Seems to me, you were trying to stretch the truth in order to better support your argument. 

 

I have no issues with you disliking American gun laws, but lets at least be honest about what they are. 

[TopDollar]

I can guarantee you that there are several pawn shops in my town where you can walk in, get a quick background check (a few days process) and get a gun. It's not difficult, regardless of the laws that are currently in place. It's nowhere near the level it is to get a gun in Europe or most other 1st World Countries.

Well now the story has changed. Now it's undergoing a background check (it's called a NICS background check and is a federal regulation), AND a waiting period. Very different than going in as an 18 year old (21 for pistols) and walking out with a gun without any sort of checks like you inferred.

Here in Virginia, there is no waiting period however all federal forms are filled out including NICS, two forms of identification are required to verify you're address (1 photo id). Your state issued photo ID must also be valid for 30 days or greater to help prevent against straw purchases for out of state people.

The 30 day state law thing pinged me when I tried to buy my first gun (I wasn't aware of that law at the time ). I had just got my virginia drivers license 2 weeks earlier even though I had been living there for 8 months already.

[TopDollar]

100% this.

I have no kids and live in a neighborhood that leaves some to be desired. There is a hot handgun in my bedside table every night, and I unlock my safe (Closet of the master bedroom) where my 10.5" AR-15 SBR is. If the zombies attack in the middle of the night I hand off the handgun to the girlfriend, and I grab the rifle. I have been kicking around the idea of picking up a Sig MPX to SBR and use as a girlfriend HD gun, but I really dont need to spend $2k setting up another gun.

My dad always had a .357 mag in a lockbox under his bed when I was growing up, and that was a great neighborhood.

Don't "need to" but want to the MPX is pretty cool.

I personally keep both my Sig P226 and Smith and Wesson M&P .40 shield ready to rock next to me a night. The sig usually in my lock box, and shield on the night stand. Maybe the sig would be better next to me though since it has night sights and 16 rounds. The 40 Shield is really awesome though. Never fails to surprise people who I let shoot it. Such a big bang from a tiny package.

Out of curiosity, An SBR (rifle with barrel less than 16") is an NFA item yes? What is the process to legally own one? I have a pretty good idea, but it might be good for the discussion here. Same with suppressors.

[stconquest]

... I leave my front door open at night

[heathd]

Don't "need to" but want to [emoji14] the MPX is pretty cool.

I personally keep both my Sig P226 and Smith and Wesson M&P .40 shield ready to rock next to me a night. The sig usually in my lock box, and shield on the night stand. Maybe the sig would be better next to me though since it has night sights and 16 rounds. The 40 Shield is really awesome though. Never fails to surprise people who I let shoot it. Such a big bang from a tiny package.

Out of curiosity, An SBR (rifle with barrel less than 16") is an NFA item yes? What is the process to legally own one? I have a pretty good idea, but it might be good for the discussion here. Same with suppressors.

Love my m&p 40, but its a full-size, not the shield variant.

[Bensemus]

There are countless instances in which guns have been used for protection. Most of which are never reported because shots are never fired. Stopping mugging, assaults, or other events where just the sight of a gun stops the crime. Plenty of interesting YouTube vlogs of people talking about time they pulled their gun out. "Justifiable homicide" is what you're looking for I think though. Sadly these events are not covered nearly as much as crimes with guns occur.

As far as storing, there are quick access boxes which can be unlocked quickly for defense purposes. Or if you're single and don't have kids, I don't see any problems having a gun ready to rock and roll by the bedside. Maybe just lock it up in the morning.

That is anecdotal evidence though. Compare that to accidental deaths due to kids finding guns or people grabbing a gun in the heat of the moment is what I'm interested in. I know there are plenty of justified instances but I want compare them.

[TopDollar]

Love my m&p 40, but its a full-size, not the shield variant.

I kind of wished I had gotten the M&P 40c (for the double stack mag) now that I have realized I can carry a full sized handgun comfortably. Love how it shoots though. Very manageable .

[Real_PhillBert]

Don't "need to" but want to the MPX is pretty cool.

I personally keep both my Sig P226 and Smith and Wesson M&P .40 shield ready to rock next to me a night. The sig usually in my lock box, and shield on the night stand. Maybe the sig would be better next to me though since it has night sights and 16 rounds. The 40 Shield is really awesome though. Never fails to surprise people who I let shoot it. Such a big bang from a tiny package.

Out of curiosity, An SBR (rifle with barrel less than 16") is an NFA item yes? What is the process to legally own one? I have a pretty good idea, but it might be good for the discussion here. Same with suppressors.

 

MPX's are neat. Almost an MP-5, and who doesn't want an MP-5?

 

I keep everything in the safe unless in use, or doing nightstand duty. I'm not one to leave guns around the house. I think you should put whatever you are most comfortable with on the nightstand, if that is the Shield, use the Shield. 

 

Yes my AR is a title 2 NFA item. What I did was buy a regular 16" AR-15 and filled out an ATF Form 1, which is for the manufacture of an NFA firearm. Where it gets complicated is the form, there are two ways to fill it out, as an individual, and as a trust. 

 

As an individual you will put down all of your pertinent information (name, address, SSN, and so on) as well as information on that firearm (caliber, barrel length, overall length etc), then go to your local police dept and get fingerprinted on an FBI fingerprint card, once you have done that you have to go to your chief of police or sheriff and have them OK the purchase with their signature. Finally you must go to the post office and have a passport photo taken.

 

As a trust (the route I took), you must set up a legal trust, duh. Then you fill out the Form 1 with your info, as well as the information on your trust, plus the same firearm info as if you were filling it out as an individual, however you do not need to get CLEO sign off nor do you need to be fingerprinted, because you DO NOT own this firearm anymore; the trust does.

 

Once you have done all of this you send the ATF the completed Form 1, FBI fingerprint card, Passport photo, CLEO sign off and a check for $200. The ATF will do an extensive search on you and anyone in your trust, then in 3-9 months (mine took about four months) they will send you back your form 1 with a tax stamp. This stamp is what makes it legal for you to turn your title 1 firearm into a title 2 firearm. The only thing you have to do now is get your/trust name (as manufacturer of the title 2 firearm) as well as city and state engraved onto the gun.

 

Only after you have done all of this is it OK to put a barrel shorter than 16" onto the rifle or a stock on a pistol. 

 

The trick is that the way the NFA was written these firearms are not legal except for the exception of possession of the tax stamp. Therefor it is very very very wise to make a copy of your ATF paperwork and tax stamp to keep in your gun case, because it is possible that a law enforcement officer might think you have illegally made a title 2 firearm and lock your ass up until they find the ATF paperwork themselves. 

 

The other catch is that you have to fill out an ATF form 20 if you travel across state lines with NFA items, with the exception of suppressors. You do not have to notify the ATF if you are traveling with suppressors. 

 

SUPPRESSORS: If you are simply buying a already manufactured suppressor, you go through much the same steps with an ATF Form 4. The Form 4 is a transfer of an NFA item. Basically you go to a gun store and buy whatever suppressor you want paid in full. If they have it in stock you will fill out a Form 4 right there and the FFL will take a copy of the Form 4 and put your suppressor in their safe (NFA jail ). You then go home, write a check for $200 to the ATF and mail the Form 4 and the check to the ATF. Now you get to wait 3 to 9 months for them to do an extensive background check before the ATF returns your Form 4 and a tax stamp. Once this happens you go back to the FFL, they will make a copy of your tax stamp, you will fill out a 4473 (because reasons...) and do a NICS background check. Now that you passed the NICS they will hand over your suppressor and you are free to pew quietly. If you are manufacturing your own, the process is exactly the same with a Form 1.

 

To be honest, the process is a bulky, pain in the ass but it does make for a pretty fun gun. 

[Kobathor]

What I think America should do is make the price of one bullet $5000 that'll make people think twice before killing someone.

Then the ammo smuggling business will shoot through the roof, and criminals will kill easier since even people with guns will only have a few shots. Dumb idea.

[TopDollar]

MPX's are neat. Almost an MP-5, and who doesn't want an MP-5?

 

I keep everything in the safe unless in use, or doing nightstand duty. I'm not one to leave guns around the house. I think you should put whatever you are most comfortable with on the nightstand, if that is the Shield, use the Shield. 

 

Yes my AR is a title 2 NFA item. What I did was buy a regular 16" AR-15 and filled out an ATF Form 1, which is for the manufacture of an NFA firearm. Where it gets complicated is the form, there are two ways to fill it out, as an individual, and as a trust. 

 

As an individual you will put down all of your pertinent information (name, address, SSN, and so on) as well as information on that firearm (caliber, barrel length, overall length etc), then go to your local police dept and get fingerprinted on an FBI fingerprint card, once you have done that you have to go to your chief of police or sheriff and have them OK the purchase with their signature. Finally you must go to the post office and have a passport photo taken.

 

As a trust (the route I took), you must set up a legal trust, duh. Then you fill out the Form 1 with your info, as well as the information on your trust, plus the same firearm info as if you were filling it out as an individual, however you do not need to get CLEO sign off nor do you need to be fingerprinted, because you DO NOT own this firearm anymore; the trust does.

 

Once you have done all of this you send the ATF the completed Form 1, FBI fingerprint card, Passport photo, CLEO sign off and a check for $200. The ATF will do an extensive search on you and anyone in your trust, then in 3-9 months (mine took about four months) they will send you back your form 1 with a tax stamp. This stamp is what makes it legal for you to turn your title 1 firearm into a title 2 firearm. The only thing you have to do now is get your/trust name (as manufacturer of the title 2 firearm) as well as city and state engraved onto the gun.

 

Only after you have done all of this is it OK to put a barrel shorter than 16" onto the rifle or a stock on a pistol. 

 

The trick is that the way the NFA was written there firearms are not legal except for the exception of possession of the tax stamp. Therefor it is very very very wise to make a copy of your ATF paperwork and tax stamp to keep in your gun case, because it is possible that a law enforcement officer might think you have illegally made a title 2 firearm and lock your ass up until they find the ATF paperwork themselves. 

 

The other catch is that you have to fill out an ATF form 20 if you travel across state lines with NFA items, with the exception of suppressors. You do not have to notify the ATF if you are traveling with suppressors. 

 

SUPPRESSORS: If you are simply buying a already manufactured suppressor, you go through much the same steps with an ATF Form 4. The Form 4 is a transfer of an NFA item. Basically you go to a gun store and buy whatever suppressor you want paid in full. If they have it in stock you will fill out a Form 4 right there and the FFL will take a copy of the Form 4 and put your suppressor in their safe (NFA jail ). You then go home, write a check for $200 to the ATF and mail the Form 4 and the check to the ATF. Now you get to wait 3 to 9 months for them to do an extensive background check before the ATF returns your Form 4 and a tax stamp. Once this happens you go back to the FFL, they will make a copy of your tax stamp, you will fill out a 4473 (because reasons...) and do a NICS background check. Now that you passed the NICS they will hand over your suppressor and you are free to pew quietly. If you are manufacturing your own, the process is exactly the same with a Form 1.

 

To be honest, the process is a bulky, pain in the ass but it does make for a pretty fun gun.

Actually this is excellent information. I wasn't aware that the ATF did this type of investigation for NFA purchases. The length of time alone for the investigation is similar in length to that of obtaining a DoD or DoE security clearance.

[Real_PhillBert]

Actually this is excellent information. I wasn't aware that the ATF did this type of investigation for NFA purchases. The length of time alone for the investigation is similar in length to that of obtaining a DoD or DoE security clearance.

 

I imagine the checks they do are probably similar to the checks for obtaining security clearance. The purchase sounds worse than it really is, the worst part is just the wait. 

 

But you have to understand the history of the NFA. It was made in 1934 as a defacto ban on these items, as the tax has never been adjusted for inflation. $200 in 1934 was equivalent to about $3500 today. Only as the dollar has lost value have these firearms become really available to the public. 

[petem]

 

Ok, I am glad you took the time to tell us what you think... but this is what I get from your post:

 

*Guns are not the problem. - Guns are neutral, are no more a problem than automobiles or any other technology that can be used for good or bad. To focus on only the bad, as if the good does not matter, would similarly lead to statements like "cars should be outlawed because they kill orders or magnitude more people than guns".

 

*Maybe put everyone who wants a gun in the military. - Military experience would certainly sober up the armchair quarterbacks about the realities of war and the costs of defending yourself against those that would end you and your country.  Doesn't mean we should, just that it shouldn't be dismissed as foolish before actually examining the evidence for and against.

 

*The population of the USA is saturated with the clinically insane. -   Where'd you get that from? That's like saying since a tomato is a vegetable, all vegetables must be tomatoes.  Unstable does not mean clinically insane.  But having said that, clinically insane doesn't necessarily mean harmful, either.  And saturation is hyperbolic, to say the least.

 

*Government scares you (personal control issue? - not at all, where did I express any fear or worries about the government?  I only note a common theme of history, which, for those who don't study and understand it, can be, in this context, summed up as: the only good government is a government that is afraid of what it's people will do if it screws them over.

 

*Peaceful protests against the government annoy you. - again, where'd this come from?  Protests (peaceful) are a necessary and important right - it's one of the ways the people let the government know they are upset.  Unrest is not annoying, the problems that cause the unrest are what's annoying.

 

*Obama is the devil. - again, a bit (sarcasm here) overstated.  He's not the devil, just a textbook example of what happens when you vote someone in to office because they make you feed good, rather than because they are an effective administrator with concrete positions and a proven track record.  I voted for him in 2008, only because I knew McCain would be a mess and was skeptical, but not sure, of 0.  In 2012, I didn't vote for him, because I was sure.  Not to pick sides, since I don't have one, but the die-hard Democrats and Republicans both have a similar blind-spot: "I don't care what the man in office does as long as he's on my team."  For as long as I can remember, it seems both sides defend the actions of their "man in office" while they would be condemning them if that person were on the other side.  Hypocrisy abounds, and this is not a recent trend.

 

*'I don't think there is a problem'. - Oh, there are most definitely problems.  You are totally dismissing my point that the real problems are ignored while some other "problem" (gun control in this case) is attacked by the demagogues.

 

I don't understand this shit against Black Lives Matter.  See, you want guns to protect yourself IF the government becomes uncontrollably tyrannical.  BLM is trying to protect the lives of people that are being killed by the government through peaceful means.  Maybe you have an issue with anyone that does things differently than you.  

I think you *totally* missed my point there.  Black lives matter is an expression of disgust with our government.  Police are one of the many means the government uses to keep its populace in check.  Police represent *the government*, the government that I shouldn't worry about becoming uncontrollably tyrannical, which, because there are so many gun owners, I don't worry about.

 

BTW.  I may not agree with the BLM POV, since they seem to think it's only happening to them, and dismiss examples to the contrary.  Which I guess makes them racist.  But, they are right inasmuch as the police, as the ultimate bullies, break the rules far too often, and if it weren't for the recent ubiquity of phone-cameras, they'd still be getting away with it. White, Black, everybody else.  When I screw up, no one dies.  When they screw up, someone dies, and only to the extent that we, the people, are able to hold them accountable, do they have to answer for their misdeeds.  BLM is holding them accountable. I just wish they'd pick tragedies that weren't obviously biased.

 

All you had to do was state that a ban on firearms is a bad idea, it is.  Instead you propose evidence without understanding that there is a "cycle of violence" problem in the USA.  Your way of thinking is a problem.  You are skewed in your understanding of this problem and you are using evidence to try and support your beliefs, bad idea. Evidence is a bad idea? Pffttt. My "way of thinking" is supported by 2000+ years of history showing what it takes to keep bullies from killing you - what is yours based on? I have yet to learn of one pacifist nation that overcame an aggressor nation (unless they had a bigger bully ally).  I have yet to learn of one pacifist people that overthrew their tyrannical leaders. A single bully may be shown the error of their ways, but not an organization committed to violence.  Violence (and guns' part in it) may not be the answer eventually, but that will only happen when every nation, society, culture, and organization rejects it, now and forever.  Good luck with that any time soon.

 

This is a problem:  The USA is saturated with hundreds of millions of legally purchased firearms and a buttload of ammunition to use them.  You don't address this because it does not suit your way of thinking... so it is not a problem. Well, it is obviously a problem for you, but I am not bothered about it because history has shown that this is the most effective means of ultimately keeping a government in check.  Not that there is an imminent problem here.  But your logic is flawed.  You argue that we don't need guns because the government is OK.  You are looking at it backwards.  I argue that the government is OK *because* it has to be, or else. There are plenty of examples of the U.S. government using its vast powers against its own people, and it is only the response of the people that has forced it to back down.  It is ever in the nature of government to grow itself at the expense of the governed.  If you think a few crazy people with guns is a problem, take a look at a crazy government with the people disarmed; North Korea for example.

 

I will leave this here because the way you treat the idea of peacefully protesting the government is hilarious: Because you clearly misstated my views vis-a-vis protests, and then argued against the misstatements, I don't think I need to rehash my position.

 

<youtube video url removed for clarity> -  Not interested in "Youtube" wisdom.  Read some history books.  I have.  They're enlightening.  I recently re-read "The Autobiography of Malcolm X" and find it more informative and inspiring than any youtube video I have ever seen or heard about. I realize that Alex Haley is a good story teller, and may have taken artistic license with the material (according to an older friend of mine who went to some of his speeches), but that only makes me appreciate the book more.

 

Your solution to this is arming the black people to they can defend themselves against the police?  Really?  How about grabbing a bunch of your buddies, arming up and jumping in a truck to teach those BLM protesters a "lesson"?  That will shut them up. - You're grasping at straws now, I haven't put forth any such solution.  And furthermore, how can you, with a straight face, say I dislike BLM, and then turn around and suggest that I think they should arm themselves against the police?  Your intentional extreme response to my misstated position discredits your viewpoint.  I would almost suggest you are responding to someone else's post, if I hadn't seen you use this approach a few times before.  Tsk Tsk.

 

<youtube video url removed for clarity> - see above.

 

'Nuf said.

[Security]

Tbh. they need to figure it out on there own, every country has things allowed which hurt the country over all which won't change (easily) do to culture.

[heathd]

MPX's are neat. Almost an MP-5, and who doesn't want an MP-5?

I keep everything in the safe unless in use, or doing nightstand duty. I'm not one to leave guns around the house. I think you should put whatever you are most comfortable with on the nightstand, if that is the Shield, use the Shield.

Yes my AR is a title 2 NFA item. What I did was buy a regular 16" AR-15 and filled out an ATF Form 1, which is for the manufacture of an NFA firearm. Where it gets complicated is the form, there are two ways to fill it out, as an individual, and as a trust.

As an individual you will put down all of your pertinent information (name, address, SSN, and so on) as well as information on that firearm (caliber, barrel length, overall length etc), then go to your local police dept and get fingerprinted on an FBI fingerprint card, once you have done that you have to go to your chief of police or sheriff and have them OK the purchase with their signature. Finally you must go to the post office and have a passport photo taken.

As a trust (the route I took), you must set up a legal trust, duh. Then you fill out the Form 1 with your info, as well as the information on your trust, plus the same firearm info as if you were filling it out as an individual, however you do not need to get CLEO sign off nor do you need to be fingerprinted, because you DO NOT own this firearm anymore; the trust does.

Once you have done all of this you send the ATF the completed Form 1, FBI fingerprint card, Passport photo, CLEO sign off and a check for $200. The ATF will do an extensive search on you and anyone in your trust, then in 3-9 months (mine took about four months) they will send you back your form 1 with a tax stamp. This stamp is what makes it legal for you to turn your title 1 firearm into a title 2 firearm. The only thing you have to do now is get your/trust name (as manufacturer of the title 2 firearm) as well as city and state engraved onto the gun.

Only after you have done all of this is it OK to put a barrel shorter than 16" onto the rifle or a stock on a pistol.

The trick is that the way the NFA was written these firearms are not legal except for the exception of possession of the tax stamp. Therefor it is very very very wise to make a copy of your ATF paperwork and tax stamp to keep in your gun case, because it is possible that a law enforcement officer might think you have illegally made a title 2 firearm and lock your ass up until they find the ATF paperwork themselves.

The other catch is that you have to fill out an ATF form 20 if you travel across state lines with NFA items, with the exception of suppressors. You do not have to notify the ATF if you are traveling with suppressors.

SUPPRESSORS: If you are simply buying a already manufactured suppressor, you go through much the same steps with an ATF Form 4. The Form 4 is a transfer of an NFA item. Basically you go to a gun store and buy whatever suppressor you want paid in full. If they have it in stock you will fill out a Form 4 right there and the FFL will take a copy of the Form 4 and put your suppressor in their safe (NFA jail [emoji14] ). You then go home, write a check for $200 to the ATF and mail the Form 4 and the check to the ATF. Now you get to wait 3 to 9 months for them to do an extensive background check before the ATF returns your Form 4 and a tax stamp. Once this happens you go back to the FFL, they will make a copy of your tax stamp, you will fill out a 4473 (because reasons...) and do a NICS background check. Now that you passed the NICS they will hand over your suppressor and you are free to pew quietly. If you are manufacturing your own, the process is exactly the same with a Form 1.

To be honest, the process is a bulky, pain in the ass but it does make for a pretty fun gun.

And that's why I haven't bothered with it. Looked into it, and quickly decided no thanks. Its not the cost, just the painful process. I guess I don't want to shoot clays with a silenced shotgun bad enough.

[SeriouslyMikey]

Yes. 

[Real_PhillBert]

And that's why I haven't bothered with it. Looked into it, and quickly decided no thanks. Its not the cost, just the painful process. I guess I don't want to shoot clays with a silenced shotgun bad enough.

 

I wont hold that decision against you; the process does suck.

[Samfisher]

Criminals are criminals; they'll find a way to get guns and that would leave the rest of us defenseless. You can ban guns, but it won't do anything.

And somehow the rest of the world's Black Market just isn't as great as the US ones?  Cos guns are fkin hard to get anywhere else.

[stconquest]

'Nuf said.

 

Thanks for clarifying.