Jim Keller leaves AMD - AMD claims Zen "on track"

[VanayadGaming]

It's not anti-AMD at all we need AMD to finally die so that a big company can buy them out.

AMD is incapable of doing competition in its current state and we are all sick of it.

GPU's are over 2x as expensive as they were 5 years ago a GTX590 was $699 now a single GPU costs that price or more.

And at the current rate Intel will still be still selling expensive 4 cores for years to come.

 

 

AMD is incapable ? Well, considering current benches the 390x is roughly equal to a 980. And the 390 is an old card. From low to mid they dominate the pricepoints, even high (380/390x). The card that doesn't perform that good is the Fury at 1080p/1440p resolution, at 4k it is equal to a 980Ti. Cpus  on the other hand it is not that they suck, just like Intel tried something with Itanium, so did they with CMTs, which is theory are good... 

[looncraz]

 

Intel is working on their next two generations of chips before they even finish the current one. The fanboyism is real. Expect another 5 years between processor refreshes again. AMD has to bring in help to design the chip, they have someone else fab them, what exactly do they do on their own now?

 

 

 

My hypothetical view of the current state of things and what will be happening:

Zen+ basic design is already largely completed (hence how they know to expect a 15% improvement from it), but now the team is focusing on examining the Zen prototyping results and analyzing the need for layer updates and dealing with process quirks.

 

Zen is still on schedule, with no changes in the schedule, since no official schedule was ever released.  A late Q3'16 release was my optimistic guess a year ago, assuming they would not nail Zen's tape-out on the first try and would need to spend a few months performing a final tapeout, all the while GloFo is using the Zen CPU as its benchmark for 14nm LPP progress, giving an added benefit to both parties in terms of yield, profit, and marketability.  Once they get the final tapeout, it would not be until March or April 2016 that they can certify the platform using Zen, though the platform will have already begun progressing with an Excavator APU using the same platform logic as Zen, possibly even using the same data fabric, which might make the AM4 APU more interesting than it at first may appear (from a technical perspective more so than from a user perspective).

 

As the final CPU is being certified, AMD will order a preliminary production batch from GloFo around May or June, testing for yield progress and product consistency across a normal production run. Results of this will be known in July or August, and, provided things aare working acceptably well enough, AMD will start ordering launch batches at that time, giving a late Q3 release on the optimistic side.  The initial release will probably be limited, with the chips mostly focused on server, and reviewers getting their hands on them.  They may well only have an eight core die until late Q4 or early Q1, which is likely when they will release the AM4 lineup, ready to roll.

 

I expect die harvested 6 core CPUs, and full-fledged 8-core CPUs on AM4, as well as die harvest dual, triple, and quad core chips, with Semprons possibly also lacking the SMT features.  A real dual core die will probably be released as well if AMD deems the market worthwhile.  During this time, of course, AMD is also working on final tape out for the Zen APU, which should have an easier (shorter) time to reach the market (only a couple months faster at most).

 

So, if all of my many assumptions an educated guesses are true, AMD will be returning to what worked well (enough) for them during the height of the phenom II era - being 10% slower, having more cores, being slightly cheaper, and having the better platform for the money (thanks to the AsMedia partnership this time).

[Misanthrope]

All this talk of AMD and tracks right now this is the only train I can think of that's fitting of AMD right now:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRMsphChLs8

[patrickjp93]

It's not anti-AMD at all we need AMD to finally die so that a big company can buy them out.

AMD is incapable of doing competition in its current state and we are all sick of it.

GPU's are over 2x as expensive as they were 5 years ago a GTX590 was $699 now a single GPU costs that price or more.

And at the current rate Intel will still be still selling expensive 4 cores for years to come.

 

Just look at Maxwell they had to change huge part of the chip due to TSMC.

Depending on the fabs they might have do rework some stuff also if patrickjp93 is correct and he really works now for Intel that would literally be a death sentence for AMD.

 

I don't work for them. I interned with IBM. I am a small time Intel investor (mainly using the dividends to pay basic expenses). I want to see competition come back as much as you guys do. But with Keller now in Intel's hands I'm sorry what more do you freaking want before you accept that yes, AMD is going to disappear before 2025?!

[ltguy]

This is all well and good but i think i will continue to buy my chips from a manufacture that has full time lead chip architect(s) and not someone who pops onto the scene every 5 years or so at his leisure if were lucky. 

[patrick3027]

Going by his employment history (well, at least the part I'm aware of), I just get the impression that this is what he does. Work on a major project or two, then leave to do something else, maybe come back later.

Zen is probably mostly done by now. I doubt it'll be good enough to get back to the glory days of the K7/K8, but if it's decent and they don't fuck up their PR (i.e. if they manage to get expectations in line with what they deliver and provide decent performance per dollar and per watt) it could get AMD back on a somewhat sustainable path of doing business.

Even then, I consider Jim Keller one of the smartest guys in his domain and it's sad he won't help AMD going further after Zen.

 

But yeah, Zen is mostly done by now and it should be at least decent, so no worries there. The "RIP AMD" comments are laughable.

[looncraz]

I'm quite sure that there's Zen's in AMD as we speak. Once past tape out there will be small batches made for testing and proofing purposes. I wouldn't be surprised that Keller has been doing the testing and left once he was able to sign off the on the design in silicon. Most people forget that Zen is already 6 months late. They've now moved the release date back twice. GloFo is really struggling. I can see AMD going down as they can't get product through no fault of their own. Sad.

 

And even someone like Samsung can't swoop in and save the day as the processes are too different. TSMC is partnered with Glofo on this so there's no help there either. The only way that AMD could really get moving is to start over with someone who really understands the process, has the fabs to make it work and the expertise to get it done. In other words... Intel.

 

Zen is not late at all, what are you talking about?  The product schedules are always vague, with a quarter or two leeway a year or so out.  We are only seeing Zen prototype production having recently been completed, the exact moment we'd expect Jim Keller to know whether or not he has done his job right.  I don't think he would have left if he hadn't.  I think he is happy (enough) with what was accomplished, and now he's ready to move on.  Considering he only stayed at AMD a year last time, I don't think he likes working there, he just did it to do something new and exciting - and for a nice big paycheck, I'm sure.  No harm in that, we'd all do the same (I've done that myself).

 

Further, Global Foundries is NOT partnered with TSMC (they're direct competitors), they are partnered with Samsung on 14nm LPE/P.

 

Samsung is already producing on those nodes, using the same tooling, software, and everything, so AMD should be able to actually use Samsung as a backup fab (barring contractual issues).  In fact, it probably would only take a month or two to get a Samsung run rolling for Zen, once the Global Foundries run is finalized.

[looncraz]

I don't work for them. I interned with IBM. I am a small time Intel investor (mainly using the dividends to pay basic expenses). I want to see competition come back as much as you guys do. But with Keller now in Intel's hands I'm sorry what more do you freaking want before you accept that yes, AMD is going to disappear before 2025?!

 

Why do you think Keller went to Intel?

[looncraz]

It's not anti-AMD at all we need AMD to finally die so that a big company can buy them out.

AMD is incapable of doing competition in its current state and we are all sick of it.

GPU's are over 2x as expensive as they were 5 years ago a GTX590 was $699 now a single GPU costs that price or more.

And at the current rate Intel will still be still selling expensive 4 cores for years to come.

 

Just look at Maxwell they had to change huge part of the chip due to TSMC.

Depending on the fabs they might have do rework some stuff also if patrickjp93 is correct and he really works now for Intel that would literally be a death sentence for AMD.

 

 

What I do, is build every machine I can with AMD parts.  I only do so when it makes sense, of course, and I usually end up with more - or the same - for my money when compared with the same-cost Intel build.

 

And, that, is where people go wrong.  EVERYONE expects that they SHOULD be saving money by going with AMD.  And, they can, but then the system will be worse.  The real magic is when you spend the same amount.  Then, with AMD, you tend to get a better platform.

 

You can't compare a $180 CPU with a $340 CPU, but people do it all the time in reviews.  What ever happened to price-parity reviews?

 

You can't look at an AMD APU and compare it to a price-similar i5, because AMD's graphics component is drastically better than the i5's.  And that has an impact even for office work (which, these days, includes browsing the web - which can be GPU accelerated - and watching Youtube videos while the boss ain't looking).

 

Price-parity comparison:

Intel Pentium G3450: $80

AMD A8-7600: $85

 

That is a dual core, no hyper-threading, 3.4GHz (no turbo) 54W CPU with very weak graphics compared to a quad core, 3.1 GHz (Turbo to 3.8) 45/65W (selectable!) CPU with a rather powerful GPU.

 

On the CPU portion alone, they tend to be rather evenly matched.  AMD is faster in most multithreaded workloads, the Intel is faster in most single threaded workloads. Both by about the same amount. The AMD CPU will not slow down anything more than the Pentium in any meaningful way, and the reverse is true for the Intel.  So the difference comes to CPU features, the GPU, and the platform, ALL of which favor AMD.

 

The AMD has AVX, AES, TB, AMD-V, BMI1, F16C, SSE4a, and probably a few other features the Pentium lacks.  These aren't the end-all be-all, of course, but it can be meaningful is certain apps.

 

Next up, you have the GPU, which is almost 300% faster on the A8 than on the Pentium.  That means you can actually do some decent gaming without buying a dGPU.  The last time I built a system using an Intel CPU at this level I ended up upgrading that computer with an R7 250 only a month later, as the customer wanted to play the one heavy-ish game they didn't tell me they wanted to play when I built the computer.  Since then, I've only made AMD systems at that price level, and absolutely no one has complained - in fact, quite the opposite.

 

Finally, the platform.  With Intel at the same price level, you always get less on the motherboard than with AMD systems.  I just built a A68 system to house an A8-7600.  It is a very nice MSI A68HM-Grenade motherboard for $55.  It has a 5 star rating.  The nearest thing on the Intel side is an H81M-E35 V2.  It's just $5 more (making up for difference in CPU price), but isn't quite as good.  It has inferior power delivery, less memory compatibility, a somewhat less convenient layout, and a four star rating.

 

I only say all this because I *just* went through making my decision about which to use.  And the AMD won out.

[patrickjp93]

Why do you think Keller went to Intel?

Investor conference call on Thursday.

[patrickjp93]

What I do, is build every machine I can with AMD parts. I only do so when it makes sense, of course, and I usually end up with more - or the same - for my money when compared with the same-cost Intel build.

And, that, is where people go wrong. EVERYONE expects that they SHOULD be saving money by going with AMD. And, they can, but then the system will be worse. The real magic is when you spend the same amount. Then, with AMD, you tend to get a better platform.

You can't compare a $180 CPU with a $340 CPU, but people do it all the time in reviews. What ever happened to price-parity reviews?

You can't look at an AMD APU and compare it to a price-similar i5, because AMD's graphics component is drastically better than the i5's. And that has an impact even for office work (which, these days, includes browsing the web - which can be GPU accelerated - and watching Youtube videos while the boss ain't looking).

Price-parity comparison:

Intel Pentium G3450: $80

AMD A8-7600: $85

That is a dual core, no hyper-threading, 3.4GHz (no turbo) 54W CPU with very weak graphics compared to a quad core, 3.1 GHz (Turbo to 3.8) 45/65W (selectable!) CPU with a rather powerful GPU.

On the CPU portion alone, they tend to be rather evenly matched. AMD is faster in most multithreaded workloads, the Intel is faster in most single threaded workloads. Both by about the same amount. The AMD CPU will not slow down anything more than the Pentium in any meaningful way, and the reverse is true for the Intel. So the difference comes to CPU features, the GPU, and the platform, ALL of which favor AMD.

The AMD has AVX, AES, TB, AMD-V, BMI1, F16C, SSE4a, and probably a few other features the Pentium lacks. These aren't the end-all be-all, of course, but it can be meaningful is certain apps.

Next up, you have the GPU, which is almost 300% faster on the A8 than on the Pentium. That means you can actually do some decent gaming without buying a dGPU. The last time I built a system using an Intel CPU at this level I ended up upgrading that computer with an R7 250 only a month later, as the customer wanted to play the one heavy-ish game they didn't tell me they wanted to play when I built the computer. Since then, I've only made AMD systems at that price level, and absolutely no one has complained - in fact, quite the opposite.

Finally, the platform. With Intel at the same price level, you always get less on the motherboard than with AMD systems. I just built a A68 system to house an A8-7600. It is a very nice MSI A68HM-Grenade motherboard for $55. It has a 5 star rating. The nearest thing on the Intel side is an H81M-E35 V2. It's just $5 more (making up for difference in CPU price), but isn't quite as good. It has inferior power delivery, less memory compatibility, a somewhat less convenient layout, and a four star rating.

I only say all this because I *just* went through making my decision about which to use. And the AMD won out.

Yup. The only people who should be buying Intel are people who need the computational power on the high end. AMD is the better budget choice until you're discussing $1000+ PCs. That said, AMD makes pennies or even loses money on some of the lower end A8 parts due to GloFos pricing.

[Eroda]

I don't work for them. I interned with IBM. I am a small time Intel investor (mainly using the dividends to pay basic expenses). I want to see competition come back as much as you guys do. But with Keller now in Intel's hands I'm sorry what more do you freaking want before you accept that yes, AMD is going to disappear before 2025?!

 

thats fine, i only really care about 1 more system upgrade by 2025 ill be to busy to do little more than check my email and watch some dvd's or youtube which case a mainstream intel part will do the job if i have no AMD option but it would be cool if they were still around

[thebennyboy]

AMDs biggest error imo was selling off their foundries. Had they have not sold them off i'm pretty certain they would still have been a very strong competitor vs Intel. Shame they don't have the money to build their own again.

[patrickjp93]

AMDs biggest error imo was selling off their foundries. Had they have not sold them off i'm pretty certain they would still have been a very strong competitor vs Intel. Shame they don't have the money to build their own again.

No. The biggest mistake was buying ATI and selling GloFo to do it. ATI was a financial mess. AMD should have merged with Nvidia and Ruiz should have let JSH be CEO. Intel could have eaten ATI's debts without a care. AMD choked.

[Guest Strangerbob]

No. The biggest mistake was buying ATI and selling GloFo to do it. ATI was a financial mess. AMD should have merged with Nvidia and Ruiz should have let JSH be CEO. Intel could have eaten ATI's debts without a care. AMD choked.

 

I wish i was in that timeline.

[patrickjp93]

I wish i was in that timeline.

Don't we all...

[looncraz]

Investor conference call on Thursday.

 

Is there a link?  Because I have seen no mention anywhere other than from you.  If he left AMD for Intel, that would be a horribly important fact to be known.  Also has a great many potential legal issues.

[Mahigan]

Based on a source within AMD, Jim Keller hasn't left the building yet. They're going to throw him a farewell party. Zen is done folks

Jim works on a per-contract basis. He won't stay at a company if there's no work to be done. He enjoys working on new projects and the entire creative process.

Where he will go from here depends on where "need" takes him.

[MageTank]

Is there a link?  Because I have seen no mention anywhere other than from you.  If he left AMD for Intel, that would be a horribly important fact to be known.  Also has a great many potential legal issues.

It's @patrickjp93, there is never a link. Just a psychic bond forged with Intel through a series of sacred rituals performed on him when he was a baby. All who doubt his knowledge will be crushed/fired. 

 

Good news is, we just have to wait until Monday or Tuesday. If it doesn't happen by then, we just have to wait until every Monday/Tuesday until the end of time, because he never really specified which Monday or Tuesday it was. He is a lawyer when it comes to loop-holes like that.

[looncraz]

No. The biggest mistake was buying ATI and selling GloFo to do it. ATI was a financial mess. AMD should have merged with Nvidia and Ruiz should have let JSH be CEO. Intel could have eaten ATI's debts without a care. AMD choked.

 

AMD and nVidia were utterly incompatible companies, so that would never have worked.

 

ATi's debt could have easily been swallowed by AMD had they continued their progress.

 

What has damaged AMD so badly is simple:

 

Phenom clocked poorly and had pretty bad IPC compared to the Core 2 series.  This wasn't as much an AMD failure, as an Intel success story.

AMD brought it back when they almost achieved IPC parity with Intel with the Phenom II, but were able to make up for the deficit with clock speeds.

Then, to counter, Intel delivered a massive blow with Nehalem.

AMD countered with a six core phenom II to hold everyone over until Bulldozer was released.

And then they messed up.  Bad.  They bet that their module design would not be as much of a burden as it was.  They achieved astonishing scaling, considering the design, but IPC was worse than Phenom II.  They tried to resolve the issues, but could never get around the fact that the module overhead (even in single threaded loads) is too much to bear.

 

Intel has about 50% higher IPC with Skylake on my multibench estimate than Excavator.  That means a 40% IPC improvement with Zen will not catch AMD up to Intel, but it will get them very close.  But, Intel will likely deliver another 5~10% boost with Kaby Lake, so AMD will be 15~20% slower.  If Zen can't hit 4GHz stock and overclock beyond that, it's game over for their CPUs.

 

Then the game is all on the GPUs.  Here, I think they have a fighting chance.  Both nVidia and AMD will be going with new platforms, AMD has MUCH more experience with HBM (having helped to design it), and has REALLY stepped up their game on the cooling front.  Sadly, they have also taken to pricing themselves too high.  They need to undercut nVidia - they have to accept that they are the value brand, no matter how good their products are.  They have to deliver more for every dollar.

 

Sadly, they can't afford to do what they need to do: sell all of their products 15% cheaper for the same performance compared to their competitor (or ~10% more performance at the same price AND physical quality).

 

They need to do that for a year, maybe more, and recapture market and mind share.

 

For example, if the R9 Nano was $100 cheaper, it would be competing against the 980 - and winning.  Sadly, they have problems with production, so I don't think they could keep up with higher sales for their Fury line.  The result is that they are intentionally pricing themselves high to drive down demand - and eek out as much margin as possible, which is a good thing on paper.

 

Hopefully they don't have these production issues with Greenland GPUs.  They are literally paying for nVidia to win with HBM.  AMD did most of the research, paid for much of the costs, and is funding the R&D to help improve yields while acting as the only customer.  nVidia is just sitting around with engineering samples of HBM/2 and laughing.

[patrickjp93]

Is there a link? Because I have seen no mention anywhere other than from you. If he left AMD for Intel, that would be a horribly important fact to be known. Also has a great many potential legal issues.

It's @patrickjp93, there is never a link. Just a psychic bond forged with Intel through a series of sacred rituals performed on him when he was a baby. All who doubt his knowledge will be crushed/fired.

Good news is, we just have to wait until Monday or Tuesday. If it doesn't happen by then, we just have to wait until every Monday/Tuesday until the end of time, because he never really specified which Monday or Tuesday it was. He is a lawyer when it comes to loop-holes like that.

Like I said, wait for the press release over the next few days. I'll be exonerated as I have been every single time. Goodbytes, Lawls, and Opecode have all been beaten. The idea Magetank will outlast me is insane. I haven't gotten a single warning post yet, and it's because I stick to the facts. It's not arrogant to know you are the best in the room.

[Shakaza]

Is there a link?  Because I have seen no mention anywhere other than from you.  If he left AMD for Intel, that would be a horribly important fact to be known.  Also has a great many potential legal issues.

  

 

Like I said, wait for the press release over the next few days. I'll be exonerated as I have been every single time. Goodbytes, Lawls*, and Opecode* have all been beaten. The idea Magetank will outlast me is insane. I haven't gotten a single warning post yet, and it's because I stick to the facts. It's not arrogant to know you are the best in the room.

 

LAwLz* & Opcode*.

 

For the record, this isn't a competition. Discussion in this forum is not about discovering who's the smartest or has the most insider information. We are here to discuss tech, or tech news in this specific sub-forum. As smart as you think you are, or as much info about Intel you have, people are not going to automatically believe what you say, despite how much you think they should. There's a very simple reason for this. To @MageTank and everyone else who doubts you, you are simply a random person on the internet. You are not an officially recognized source for information about Intel, nor are you even a source for rumors. You are just some cocky, abrasive, and sometimes outright annoying person on a tech forum who thinks he's the best there is(Note: this is not strictly how I view you). They don't care if it's true, they don't care if everything that comes out of your keyboard is true; what they care about is your attitude towards the members of the forum. And you may feel justified in acting that way since you say, "It's not arrogant to know you are the best in the room." but it's not conducive to the healthiness of this community. Furthermore, flaunting your intelligence and saying that you're the best in the room is a crappy thing to do since a significant portion of a person's intelligence is determined by factors beyond his/her control. I have seen those who worked much harder than me, and yet still weren't as good because they were disadvantaged from the get-go.

 

TL;DR: You're acting a bit like a dick; get over yourself. If you're right, that's great. You're just another person on an internet forum who contributed to the discussion. If you're wrong, who cares?! You're just another random, rude person on an internet forum. But, either way, we are gonna be skeptical because we have every right to be.

 

P.S. Sorry, Patrick. I usually like to play a more neutral stance, but this time, you've gone too far.

[Dimwitted]

Zen is not late at all, what are you talking about?  The product schedules are always vague, with a quarter or two leeway a year or so out.  We are only seeing Zen prototype production having recently been completed, the exact moment we'd expect Jim Keller to know whether or not he has done his job right.  I don't think he would have left if he hadn't.  I think he is happy (enough) with what was accomplished, and now he's ready to move on.  Considering he only stayed at AMD a year last time, I don't think he likes working there, he just did it to do something new and exciting - and for a nice big paycheck, I'm sure.  No harm in that, we'd all do the same (I've done that myself).

 

Further, Global Foundries is NOT partnered with TSMC (they're direct competitors), they are partnered with Samsung on 14nm LPE/P.

 

Samsung is already producing on those nodes, using the same tooling, software, and everything, so AMD should be able to actually use Samsung as a backup fab (barring contractual issues).  In fact, it probably would only take a month or two to get a Samsung run rolling for Zen, once the Global Foundries run is finalized.

Zen was expected to be fully taped out by 4th qtr 2014 with provisional sales by 2nd qtr 2015. Dec 14 came and went without a peep as Glofo couldn't get their processes dialed in. The new date was 3rd quarterish 2015 and it was much more vague. That was moved to 2nd qtr 2016 and now it's 4th qtr 2016. And none of it has anything to do with AMD but all with their foundry partner.

 

Actually, Glofo and TSMC co built the new foundry. They may be competitors but they also are not willing to shoulder the complete cost of a $6 billion USD fab. On top of all that the process is 16nm finFET, not the Samsung 14nm finFET. Different process and not transferable.

[MageTank]

Like I said, wait for the press release over the next few days. I'll be exonerated as I have been every single time. Goodbytes, Lawls, and Opecode have all been beaten. The idea Magetank will outlast me is insane. I haven't gotten a single warning post yet, and it's because I stick to the facts. It's not arrogant to know you are the best in the room.

I've not gotten a single warning point too. Face it patrick, we need each other. Like Batman needed the Joker, and vice versa. Two halves to the same coin. I would never want you to leave, this forum wouldn't be fun without you.

 

LAwLz* & Opcode*.

 

For the record, this isn't a competition. Discussion in this forum is not about discovering who's the smartest or has the most insider information. We are here to discuss tech, or tech news in this specific sub-forum. As smart as you think you are, or as much info about Intel you have, people are not going to automatically believe what you say, despite how much you think they should. There's a very simple reason for this. To @MageTank and everyone else who doubts you, you are simply a random person on the internet. You are not an officially recognized source for information about Intel, nor are you even a source for rumors. You are just some cocky, abrasive, and sometimes outright annoying person on a tech forum who thinks he's the best there is(Note: this is not strictly how I view you). They don't care if it's true, they don't care if everything that comes out of your keyboard is true; what they care about is your attitude towards the members of the forum. And you may feel justified in acting that way since you say, "It's not arrogant to know you are the best in the room." but it's not conducive to the healthiness of this community. Furthermore, flaunting your intelligence and saying that you're the best in the room is a crappy thing to do since a significant portion of a person's intelligence is determined by factors beyond his/her control. I have seen those who worked much harder than me, and yet still weren't as good because they were disadvantaged from the get-go.

 

TL;DR: You're acting a bit like a dick; get over yourself. If you're right, that's great. You're just another person on an internet forum who contributed to the discussion. If you're wrong, who cares?! You're just another random, rude person on an internet forum. But, either way, we are gonna be skeptical because we have every right to be.

 

P.S. Sorry, Patrick. I usually like to play a more neutral stance, but this time, you've gone too far.

I don't even care about his attitude. I've faced plenty of confident (arrogant) people in my time (i play MMO's quite often, and PVP more often than anything, it comes with the territory). The only thing i care about, is being able to provide proof with your claims. When people make claims without providing proof, it brings the potential to water down the truth. If someone were to stumble across one of his posts that lack a source, and they take it as the truth, and it turns out to be wrong, it could result in a bad purchase for someone, or even worse... rumors! 

 

Rumors spread like wildfire in the tech community. They damage not only the companies involved in the rumors, but the consumer that may or may not know any better, and chooses to believe the rumor as fact. Patrick believes he has provided me proof, but anyone can search through either of our posts, and see that he ends every argument by using the childish "i'm right, so you're wrong" tactic. It never works either. I always press him until I either get my information, or until he makes some sort of excuse to stop the conversation dead in its tracks. 

 

Like i said before. I always admit when i am wrong. Just recently, i apologized in this thread when i was proven wrong by @HalGameGuru. When i am wrong, i admit it, learn from it, and make certain to avoid the same mistakes. Patrick never being wrong, means he lacks the ability to improve. A trait that will surely come back to haunt him in the future.

[patrickjp93]

I've not gotten a single warning point too. Face it patrick, we need each other. Like Batman needed the Joker, and vice versa. Two halves to the same coin. I would never want you to leave, this forum wouldn't be fun without you.

 

I don't even care about his attitude. I've faced plenty of confident (arrogant) people in my time (i play MMO's quite often, and PVP more often than anything, it comes with the territory). The only thing i care about, is being able to provide proof with your claims. When people make claims without providing proof, it brings the potential to water down the truth. If someone were to stumble across one of his posts that lack a source, and they take it as the truth, and it turns out to be wrong, it could result in a bad purchase for someone, or even worse... rumors! 

 

Rumors spread like wildfire in the tech community. They damage not only the companies involved in the rumors, but the consumer that may or may not know any better, and chooses to believe the rumor as fact. Patrick believes he has provided me proof, but anyone can search through either of our posts, and see that he ends every argument by using the childish "i'm right, so you're wrong" tactic. It never works either. I always press him until I either get my information, or until he makes some sort of excuse to stop the conversation dead in its tracks. 

 

Like i said before. I always admit when i am wrong. Just recently, i apologized in this thread when i was proven wrong by @HalGameGuru. When i am wrong, i admit it, learn from it, and make certain to avoid the same mistakes. Patrick never being wrong, means he lacks the ability to improve. A trait that will surely come back to haunt him in the future.

There is a difference between never being wrong (never believing or uttering something untrue) and never being ignorant. I'm ignorant all the time and consuming more knowledge all the time. That said, I'm next to never wrong. I can improve, and I do. That doesn't require that I learn from being wrong. It requires I move from states of ignorance to knowledge and application of that knowledge. Honestly who taught you informal logic?