Do I or do I not DAC/Amp or even PCI-E soundcard?

[SSL]

It feels like there is a bit less bass on the phone than the PC, I guess that's expected because the phone isn't going to have the same beans as the amp on the onboard solution.

 

As I've said before, amp power has little effect on bass response. The audible effects of pushing an amp to the limit will manifest in other ways, typically clipping or overall insufficient volume.

 

The characteristic of an amp that WILL alter frequency response is the output impedance of the amp. If an amp has output impedance that is too high relative to the headphone impedance it can alter the frequency response of the headphones and increase distortion.

[EmoRarity]

As I've said before, amp power has little effect on bass response. The audible effects of pushing an amp to the limit will manifest in other ways, typically clipping or overall insufficient volume.

 

The characteristic of an amp that WILL alter frequency response is the output impedance of the amp. If an amp has output impedance that is too high relative to the headphone impedance it can alter the frequency response of the headphones and increase distortion.

Not to mention that treble is generally harder to drive then bass...

[Razyre]

Fair enough, it's difficult to have a clue when there is SO much misinformation out there and one doesn't understand the characteristics of driving audio.

[EmoRarity]

Fair enough, it's difficult to have a clue when there is SO much misinformation out there and one doesn't understand the characteristics of driving audio.

FAQ yo.

[Lutkeveld]

Not to mention that treble is generally harder to drive then bass...

 

Can you explain?

[EmoRarity]

Can you explain?

On tab so bare with me. Bass, long slow sine wave, less driver movement, less voltage, less amperage, less impedance. Treble, the opposite. At least what fr/impedance graphs and basic electrical understanding point too.

[Lutkeveld]

On tab so bare with me. Bass, long slow sine wave, less driver movement, less voltage, less amperage, less impedance. Treble, the opposite. At least what fr/impedance graphs and basic electrical understanding point too.

 

Frequency doesn't matter for an amp, assuming equal impedance. Less driver movement with treble is because the polarity switches so fast and the driver is pulled back to it's original position much faster.

The driver cone moves much further to recreate bass, but treble moves faster. It doesn't make any difference for power consumption.

Bass takes far more energy, in most music there is as much information above 300hz, as there is under it. 

[EmoRarity]

Frequency doesn't matter for an amp, assuming equal impedance. Less driver movement with treble is because the polarity switches so fast and the driver is pulled back to it's original position much faster.

The driver cone moves much further to recreate bass, but treble moves faster. It doesn't make any difference for power consumption.

Bass takes far more energy, in most music there is as much information above 300hz, as there is under it.

Most headphones, but not everyone, would prove the latter, will post proof when I get off my ass and my room stops being 15°.

[Pomfinator]

I don't think I've been completely wowed by an audio product ever since....

 

 

It was 2006, I was in Japan, specifically Roppongi, and just by curiosity I tried these funky things on, they just looked so weird.  I had no prior experience with headphones or earphones other than Apple ones, and then I put these on, and I was just blown away.  I couldn't believe how good my music sounded.  This basically changed how I viewed audio like no other product has, and it's THE reason why my member title is what it is.  When the CKS77s came out, I bought those, when the CKS77x came out, I bought those.  Every time one breaks, I just buy another one, on average $50 each pair.  Sure there are probably "better" earphones out there, but I am loyal to this line because it holds so much sentimental value to me.

 

I own $300 headphones and $400 speakers, but they've never recaptured the wow factor that makes this line of earphones so precious to me.  So yeah, the first time you experience good audio, is probably the only time you'll be blown away.

[SSL]

Frequency doesn't matter for an amp, assuming equal impedance. Less driver movement with treble is because the polarity switches so fast and the driver is pulled back to it's original position much faster.

 

What if there isn't equal impedance as frequency varies as is often the case with dynamic headphones? What about at the resonant frequency? How does phase angle come into play?

[Stagea]

Frequency doesn't matter for an amp, assuming equal impedance. Less driver movement with treble is because the polarity switches so fast and the driver is pulled back to it's original position much faster.

The driver cone moves much further to recreate bass, but treble moves faster. It doesn't make any difference for power consumption.

Bass takes far more energy, in most music there is as much information above 300hz, as there is under it. 

 

I agree for the most part, but a Class AB or a Class B amplifier running at the amplitude limits may show less output distortion at higher frequencies as the rails get to "recover" from collapse between cycles. A lot of it has to do with the power supply design, however.

 

As for the driver taking shorter strokes at higher frequencies, a perfect speaker will accelerate like it has zero mass so it should mirror the same movement given the same input amplitude. We all know that this is not the case in real life though, hence the need for multi-driver arrays for pistonic drivers.

 

I agree with bass taking far more energy. Most recordings have amplitudes that drop off as the frequencies go higher (kind of like pink noise), so with most materials less power is needed to recreate the upper octaves (not factoring in changes in speaker impedance and system response).

[Stagea]

What if there isn't equal impedance as frequency varies as is often the case with dynamic headphones? What about at the resonant frequency? How does phase angle come into play?

 

That's when a good amp makes a difference. Aside from introducing less noise and distortion, a good amplifier tends to interact less with the load. A stiff power supply and a low amplifier output impedance are critical if you want to get a pristine signal to your headphones.

 

Other numbers like bandwidth and slew rate don't matter as much, as most are good enough for headphone + human use.

[Lutkeveld]

I agree for the most part, but a Class AB or a Class B amplifier running at the amplitude limits may show less output distortion at higher frequencies as the rails get to "recover" from collapse between cycles. A lot of it has to do with the power supply design, however.

 

As for the driver taking shorter strokes at higher frequencies, a perfect speaker will accelerate like it has zero mass so it should mirror the same movement given the same input amplitude. We all know that this is not the case in real life though, hence the need for multi-driver arrays for pistonic drivers.

 

I agree with bass taking far more energy. Most recordings have amplitudes that drop off as the frequencies go higher (kind of like pink noise), so with most materials less power is needed to recreate the upper octaves (not factoring in changes in speaker impedance and system response).

 

Argument can be made that lower frequencies have longer time to recover. For a sine its RMS voltage is 1/sqrt(2) no matter what. Also human hearing finds it easier to pick up on distortion in the higher frequency (especially vocal) range.

 

@SSL You mean the impedance resonance peak that's characteristic of sealed enclosures? At this frequency the sound will be made by the box allignment, not by the driver. This can especially be seen on higher Q (smaller) boxes. Impedance peak starts to rise, so power starts to sag, but the output at that freq increases (due to overdamping).

[SSL]

Argument can be made that lower frequencies have longer time to recover. For a sine its RMS voltage is 1/sqrt(2) no matter what. Also human hearing finds it easier to pick up on distortion in the higher frequency (especially vocal) range.

 

@SSL You mean the impedance resonance peak that's characteristic of sealed enclosures? At this frequency the sound will be made by the box allignment, not by the driver. This can especially be seen on higher Q (smaller) boxes. Impedance peak starts to rise, so power starts to sag, but the output at that freq increases (due to overdamping).

 

Was referring to dynamic headphones which often have an impedance peak at the resonant frequency of the diver. My understanding is that this peak in impedance doesn't have an effect on frequency unless there is an impedance mismatch - but then the tendency is for output to increase at that frequency due to insufficient electrical damping. This would seem to debunk the idea that more or "better" amplification can boost bass, no?

[Lutkeveld]

@SSL It normally has no effect on the response indeed. More amplification, as in louder sound, increases appareant bass. Freq response doesn't change. You can use an overkill amp as a LInkwitz Transformer to compensate for the drivers rolloff to some extent. I've tried it with a headphone; had a lot of headroom. Measured freq response, set EQ and extend response by almost an octave

[creatip123]

@SSL It normally has no effect on the response indeed. More amplification, as in louder sound, increases appareant bass. Freq response doesn't change. You can use an overkill amp as a LInkwitz Transformer to compensate for the drivers rolloff to some extent. I've tried it with a headphone; had a lot of headroom. Measured freq response, set EQ and extend response by almost an octave

 

So basically, my wacky experiment of using a desperately overkill full set of pre-power-speaker amp actually have some benefit?

[Lutkeveld]

So basically, my wacky experiment of using a desperately overkill full set of pre-power-speaker amp actually have some benefit?

 

Depends. Boosting the low end only works when you have excursion and power(handling) headroom. 

Also, using it on a ported system doesn't work because of some reasons described in my 'what is a port' topic.

[creatip123]

Depends. Boosting the low end only works when you have excursion and power(handling) headroom. 

Also, using it on a ported system doesn't work because of some reasons described in my 'what is a port' topic.

 

The overkill speaker amp set was plugged to my headphone.

[Lutkeveld]

@creatip123 Yeah realised that after typing my post ;p. If you have closed headphones and have frequency response graphs you can use an advanced EQ to set up a sort of Linkwitz Transform.

[Stagea]

The overkill speaker amp set was plugged to my headphone.

 

If the amp has low enough noise and is designed to be able to run with an open output safely, you should be just fine.

 

There are some speaker amplifiers that are not designed to be used with such a high impedance load (granted you have 600 ohm or so headphones). Some speaker tube amps may get into the risk of arcing if you ever drive them THAT hard in such a scenario, whilst amps with output filters may overload due to odd loads from the filter caused by the "missing link" in the circuit.

[Lutkeveld]

@Stagea Huh? Arcing? Why would that happen? Which component are we talking about?

The speaker is used as part of the output filter in the TA2020 (chip used in his amp). 

Why would the output overload if the impedance is too high? I know it's not right, but don't know what actually happens.

[Stagea]

@Stagea Huh? Arcing? Why would that happen? Which component are we talking about?

The speaker is used as part of the output filter in the TA2020 (chip used in his amp).

Why would the output overload if the impedance is too high? I know it's not right, but don't know what actually happens.

Most tube speaker amplifiers run transformers on the output end that can act like ignition coils as the system can be driven to instability with a grossly mismatched load (or no load).

Oscillation/instability may be a problem with other amps as well when operated with an out of spec load (if it was not factored into the design), though arcing is mostly a tube amp phenomenon.

As for amplifiers with output filters: If the filter is a second order or higher in design, then having the proper load impedance may be essential for safe operation (unless it has output shunts or a load-detection protection circuitry built-in). An open output or a grossly mismatched load in such a basic filter circuit will shift the resonance of the components and may cause them to essentially short out the output at certain frequencies, hence the potential for overload.