VESA Brings DisplayPort Through USB Type-C

[Builder]

Respect is earned, not given freely. Stupidity and ignorance are both unacceptable when stating your opinions in any sort of authoritative manner. Ethics. Learn them.

You're like the Wintel version of me. I like you.

[beebskadoo]

You're like the Wintel version of me. I like you.

Don't feed the child.

[Valentyn]

The royalties on it are 1.5x more expensive than USB 3.0. It's going to force motherboard prices with 6 or more connectors up 10% at least.

 

I can see it on enthusiast and workstation boards, it's very useful. Especially on Apple's next systems most likely. People won't be happy about the new connector though.

[dalekphalm]

-snip-

No offense, but your arguments lose a lot of credibility when you resort to personal insults/attacks/name calling. Why don't you just let your arguments stand for themselves? The moment you start calling people names is the moment you lost control of the debate.

 

Also, you've got basically zero respect earned because of your trash talking in this thread.

 

While I normally don't always agree with your opinion, at least in the past you could make arguments (that were more or less reasoned) to stand for your opinion. Now turning to this? Seriously. Stop it. Not only is it a violation of the Forum CoC, but all it does is alienate yourself and make you look self righteous. You most likely lost respect by posting this particular post. I know you did in my eyes. I doubt you care whether I respected you to begin with though.

[beebskadoo]

No offense, but your arguments lose a lot of credibility when you resort to personal insults/attacks/name calling. Why don't you just let your arguments stand for themselves? The moment you start calling people names is the moment you lost control of the debate.

 

Also, you've got basically zero respect earned because of your trash talking in this thread.

 

While I normally don't always agree with your opinion, at least in the past you could make arguments (that were more or less reasoned) to stand for your opinion. Now turning to this? Seriously. Stop it. Not only is it a violation of the Forum CoC, but all it does is alienate yourself and make you look self righteous. You most likely lost respect by posting this particular post. I know you did in my eyes. I doubt you care whether I respected you to begin with though.

(hug)

[TheProfosist]

4x the bandwidth of USB C, and can run multiple asynchronous streams for ultra quick I/O over the PCIe protocol. Also, USB C is no larger than MicroUSB. It's flimsy.

3.1 is 10 GB/s so it would be 2x and yes the main advantage of thunderbolt is that it has a direct interface to PCI-E. But that is also a problem and has actually been holding back quite a few products.

size doesnt mean its flimsy and from what ive seen picture wise its a touch bigger.

You don't need durability testing. It's MicroUSB but curved on both sides. What are we, stupid?

Actually its not and has been fully redesigned. The bigger re design has actually been on the receptacles.

There are a ton of accessories for Thunerbolt, the most useful being a 4x USB bay to handle all your peripherals without taking up port real estate on the back of your computer and making it a nest/squid.

 

-snip-

 

You'd rather have 10 USB ports on the motherboard IO plate instead of 2 thunderbolt ports? The royalties for USB are just as high as thunderbolt. SATA and USB cost more than the damn materials that go into any motherboard.

SO its a USB controller that you plu in via thunderbolt instead of putting it in as an expansion card? I have 2 different PCI-E x4 USB 3.0 cards that have a full 5 GB/s bandwidth per port. im not too woried about port real estate because even my ITX rig has plenty of room on the back and my main system is a super tower.

I wouldnt cause I dont need 10 USB 3.0 ports but I dont have any thunderbolt devices and havnt seen any that make me say "wow I really need thunderbolt"

[LAwLz]

Respect is earned, not given freely. Stupidity and ignorance are both unacceptable when stating your opinions in any sort of authoritative manner. Ethics. Learn them.

I totally agree that respect is earned. Trying to demean someone is not a good way to earn respect.

Over the past few weeks you've gotten this "I am superior to everyone else on this forum" attitude (even when you're proven wrong). Please try to be a bit more humble and nice.

 

Remember, we are talking about an unreleased product. Nobody knows for sure how things will turn out.

[TheProfosist]

-snip-

Tug it horizontally like you know will eventually happen and look at the results. USB 3.1C is going to be a disaster unless the port and plug are primarily steel, and that's not going to happen.

Dont make assumptions until you have it. Also its better than the current USB 3.0 connections for oh so many reasons.

Hmm, yes, I can see that mess right now...yes....

 

5 External HDD enclosures, DVD, TB Dock, 7 port USB dock, external audio interface...such a mess yes....

 

 

 

My Old mac pro had just as much of a mess, any system can. You cable tidy, and you shelve things.

 

Being able to a have single TB port, sand daisy-chain multiple HDD/SSD enclosures, and even RAID them together is rather nice.

So where did you hide it all? Im pretty sue that if I had a mac pro all my stuff plugged in would be bigger than the mac pro which is why is all in a nice computer case.

[Valentyn]

Dont make assumptions until you have it. Also its better than the current USB 3.0 connections for oh so many reasons.

So where did you hide it all? Im pretty sue that if I had a mac pro all my stuff plugged in would be bigger than the mac pro which is why is all in a nice computer case.

 

I have a little shelf from ikea under my desk. You can see the Focusrite Scarlet audio interface onto of it ( it also functions as the back support leg). You just put the drives next to each other. On top of my Lacie D2 is my 7 port USB hub.

 

You can see the Thunderbolt dock ( silver & black ), next to the mac pro. The monitor also has 2 Thunderbolt ports, and 3 USB ports. It's connect with 1 TB port, and the rest function as a hub now.

 

Underneath the next is the cheap ole Ikea cable tidy basket that's attached to the underside, my cables are all managed there, with power cords running down a desk leg into the surge protector.

 

It's really not that hard to keep a desk tidy, and in fact I want to relocate them all a tad further away. The HDDs are louder than the computer when it's busy rendering out projects.

[ionbasa]

So, I think some people are missing the point as to why we need displayport over USB-C. Essentially, it isn't meant to go of your GPU like some people's wishful thinking. This is probably aimed at the mobile market, probably a direct competitor to MHL and Micro-HDMI.

 

You see, MHL isn't that great. Such as only being able to use HDMI or USB at once (there are 3rd party exceptions). With Displayport over USB-C, this will be alleviated, as simultaneous data transfers will probably be supported. 

 

In addition displayport officially supports HDMIs 2.0 protocol as of DP 1.3, meaning older devices that use HDMI would still be compatible. I imagine the DP chipset can do signal detection/handshake negotiations to determine what interconnect standard it is using.

 

In conclusion, this isn't meant for going on the back of your GPU. But rather in smartphones, tablets, phablets, ultralights, ultrabooks, and small portable A/V network players (Eg Roku). It is meant to give MHL a run for its money. Market competition is good, and I would hope that more devices support Displayport rather than HDMI at least in the pro-consumer market in the next few years.

[TacticlTwinkie]

one connector to rule them all

[patrickjp93]

3.1 is 10 GB/s so it would be 2x and yes the main advantage of thunderbolt is that it has a direct interface to PCI-E. But that is also a problem and has actually been holding back quite a few products.

size doesnt mean its flimsy and from what ive seen picture wise its a touch bigger.

Actually its not and has been fully redesigned. The bigger re design has actually been on the receptacles.

SO its a USB controller that you plu in via thunderbolt instead of putting it in as an expansion card? I have 2 different PCI-E x4 USB 3.0 cards that have a full 5 GB/s bandwidth per port. im not too woried about port real estate because even my ITX rig has plenty of room on the back and my main system is a super tower.

I wouldnt cause I dont need 10 USB 3.0 ports but I dont have any thunderbolt devices and havnt seen any that make me say "wow I really need thunderbolt"

TB 3 is 40GBps. And, it's not for everyone. I get that, but it's still superior in every single way to USB from the connector design not making the plug vulnerable should someone jam the connector to raw bandwidth to versatility. The only negative thing about it is cost, and you'd make all the money back if you nixed 8 USB ports on a motherboard and replaced them with 2 TB 3 ports.

 

Also, I'm not assuming. I have enough of an engineering background to know that thing will break a ton unless it's made out of steel. Aluminum doesn't have the tensile strength, and nor does brass. Nickel isn't good for structure either. Like I said, without steel, the cord end itself is flimsy, and the internal connector is still convex, as in you can easily fracture part of the internals and break the whole thing. It's bad design all the way around. They should have gone with a lightning-esque design.

[ionbasa]

TB 3 is 40GBps. And, it's not for everyone. I get that, but it's still superior in every single way to USB from the connector design not making the plug vulnerable should someone jam the connector to raw bandwidth to versatility. The only negative thing about it is cost, and you'd make all the money back if you nixed 8 USB ports on a motherboard and replaced them with 2 TB 3 ports.

 

Also, I'm not assuming. I have enough of an engineering background to know that thing will break a ton unless it's made out of steel. Aluminum doesn't have the tensile strength, and nor does brass. Nickel isn't good for structure either. Like I said, without steel, the cord end itself is flimsy, and the internal connector is still convex, as in you can easily fracture part of the internals and break the whole thing. It's bad design all the way around. They should have gone with a lightning-esque design.

I like the way you think, but in my opinion ThunderBolt is too much of a security issue. Look up RDMA.

There are people who do bus level debugging and sniffing for fun/hobbies, now imagine someone with malicious intent having that technical prowess. 

 

I'm not saying Thunderbolt is a bad standard, it is just too much of a security risk, just like IEEE1394 was back in the day.  

For now, I would personally stay away from ThunderBolt, until it is proven to be secure. Not that it matters in the home environment, but in an professional environment it would be worrisome.

[TheProfosist]

TB 3 is 40GBps. And, it's not for everyone. I get that, but it's still superior in every single way to USB from the connector design not making the plug vulnerable should someone jam the connector to raw bandwidth to versatility. The only negative thing about it is cost, and you'd make all the money back if you nixed 8 USB ports on a motherboard and replaced them with 2 TB 3 ports.

 

Also, I'm not assuming. I have enough of an engineering background to know that thing will break a ton unless it's made out of steel. Aluminum doesn't have the tensile strength, and nor does brass. Nickel isn't good for structure either. Like I said, without steel, the cord end itself is flimsy, and the internal connector is still convex, as in you can easily fracture part of the internals and break the whole thing. It's bad design all the way around. They should have gone with a lightning-esque design.

Is thunderbolt 3 out yet? thunderbolt 2 has been out for a while and has barely any market penetration. Also I the thunderbolt connector is the same as Mini DP and that is way too big for any portable devices. Im not worried about the cost of thunderbolt on a computer im worried about the cost of it everything else that connectos to the computer using it.

Well then you should also assume that since the completely redid the connector for USB from scratch, throwing physical backwards compatibility out the window, that they did it right. Also I should probably note that mini and micro usb seem to be made of steel on all of my stuff so...

You also say easily break it which ill disagree with untile I have it in my hands and it falls apart as you say. The main problem with the lightning connector is that if something goes itll be the receptacle not the cable which is foar more costly for the end user. Somethign else that should be take into consideration is that the lightning connector is stupidly only USB 2.0.

I just realized this why are we even getting into this in a thread about displayport being supported using the type c connector.

[patrickjp93]

I like the way you think, but in my opinion ThunderBolt is too much of a security issue. Look up RDMA.

There are people who do bus level debugging and sniffing for fun/hobbies, now imagine someone with malicious intent having that technical prowess. 

 

I'm not saying Thunderbolt is a bad standard, it is just too much of a security risk, just like IEEE1394 was back in the day.  

For now, I would personally stay away from ThunderBolt, until it is proven to be secure. Not that it matters in the home environment, but in an professional environment it would be worrisome.

USB is no more secure! WTF?! We cracked it for fun in my 300s level networking class.

 

Also, you can have end-end security via special keys in the devices, much like the public-key, private-key system for most big cloud services.

[TheProfosist]

I like the way you think, but in my opinion ThunderBolt is too much of a security issue. Look up RDMA.

There are people who do bus level debugging and sniffing for fun/hobbies, now imagine someone with malicious intent having that technical prowess. 

 

I'm not saying Thunderbolt is a bad standard, it is just too much of a security risk, just like IEEE1394 was back in the day.  

For now, I would personally stay away from ThunderBolt, until it is proven to be secure. Not that it matters in the home environment, but in an professional environment it would be worrisome.

Its been proven it isnt secure which is why system level hardware is very uncommon and why most of the devices are available in eSATA, USB 3.0, SATA or PCI-E flavors. Thing is that basically non of that is natively compatible with something like the mac pro.

The other issue is that well most systems are not cool with plug and play PCI-E devices, especially some of the potentially really cool stuff like GPU's.

[patrickjp93]

Is thunderbolt 3 out yet? thunderbolt 2 has been out for a while and has barely any market penetration. Also I the thunderbolt connector is the same as Mini DP and that is way too big for any portable devices. Im not worried about the cost of thunderbolt on a computer im worried about the cost of it everything else that connectos to the computer using it.

Well then you should also assume that since the completely redid the connector for USB from scratch, throwing physical backwards compatibility out the window, that they did it right. Also I should probably note that mini and micro usb seem to be made of steel on all of my stuff so...

You also say easily break it which ill disagree with untile I have it in my hands and it falls apart as you say. The main problem with the lightning connector is that if something goes itll be the receptacle not the cable which is foar more costly for the end user. Somethign else that should be take into consideration is that the lightning connector is stupidly only USB 2.0.

I just realized this why are we even getting into this in a thread about displayport being supported using the type c connector.

Launches with Skylake. It was demo'ed at IDF on Intel's reference laptop. If TB2 is too big, you need to measure the area of a USB connector. They're almost equal. I think it's by less than 5 square millimeters TB2 is larger.

[TheProfosist]

USB is no more secure! WTF?! We cracked it for fun in my 300s level networking class.

It actually is significantly because it doesnt give you a hardline into the PCI-E bus. I would say more secure, more like far less insecure. And everything can and will be cracked just accept it.

[patrickjp93]

It actually is significantly because it doesnt give you a hardline into the PCI-E bus. I would say more secure, more like far less insecure. And everything can and will be cracked just accept it.

And the PCIe bus gives you exactly what power? Ethernet doesn't connect directly to it anymore unless you use an expansion card, and once anything goes to the CPU which isn't recognized, it gets quaranteed by the vPro embedded security.

[ionbasa]

USB is no more secure! WTF?! We cracked it for fun in my 300s level networking class.

It actually is, for now USB doesn't have direct CPU processor interrupts or memory mapping support, like PCIe does. 

 

Its been proven it isnt secure which is why system level hardware is very uncommon and why most of the devices are available in eSATA, USB 3.0, SATA or PCI-E flavors. Thing is that basically non of that is natively compatible with something like the mac pro.

The other issue is that well most systems are not cool with plug and play PCI-E devices, especially some of the potentially really cool stuff like GPU's.

I know, which is why I bring it up. 

 

I know TB is cool, just like Infiniband is cool. I've actually been thinking about getting a storage pool set up via 3 physical servers, glusterFs, and Infiniband. RDMA is a niche technology that allows for dramatically less overhead on IO operations and CPU workloads.

[TheProfosist]

Launches with Skylake. It was demo'ed at IDF on Intel's reference laptop. If TB2 is too big, you need to measure the area of a USB connector. They're almost equal. I think it's by less than 5 square millimeters TB2 is larger.

so we still have broadwell and then skylake so a minimum of ~1.5 years till we potentially see TB3. I have mini display port devices and thunderbolt ports I know how big it is and square in wise is probably comparable to the USB A connector on the end, which isnt the problem, nor the comparison im making. There is no way a thunderbolt receptacle will fit on say a smartphone or a tablet, at all much less elegantly. I can tell you why also its not meant to because the scope of USB and TB differ greatly. Both exist now for different reasons and will continue to until they are both replaced by something.

[ionbasa]

And the PCIe bus gives you exactly what power? Ethernet doesn't connect directly to it anymore unless you use an expansion card, and once anything goes to the CPU which isn't recognized, it gets quaranteed by the vPro embedded security.

PCIe allows for RDMA. USB, Ethernet, Sata, don't have access to remapping memory IO. PCIe bus level devices do.

 

Here is a worst case scenario:

You lose your laptop which has TB. You work for a company that works with government contracts and deals with research.

I find the laptop, connect to the TB port (PCIe bus) and can snoop pre-boot code/ initialization firmware, key handshakes etc.

I then can access loaded memory due to RDMA.

 

It basically is a hardware version of heartbleed (if abused).

[LAwLz]

PCIe allows for RDMA. USB, Ethernet, Sata, don't have access to remapping memory IO. PCIe bus level devices do.

 

Here is a worst case scenario:

You lose your laptop which has TB. You work for a company that works with government contracts and deals with research.

I find the laptop, connect to the TB port (PCIe bus) and can snoop pre-boot code/ initialization firmware, key handshakes etc.

I then can access loaded memory due to RDMA.

 

It basically is a hardware version of heartbleed (if abused).

Don't quote me on this but I read somewhere (when Thunderbolt was brand new) that there are ways of putting some memory control between devices and the main memory (so nothing has direct access). Of course that would give more overhead but it would eliminate the risk of some malicious Thunderbolt device reading everything in your memory unhindered.

But yeah, USB has its share of security issues as well.

[ionbasa]

Don't quote me on this but I read somewhere (when Thunderbolt was brand new) that there are ways of putting some memory control between devices and the main memory (so nothing has direct access). Of course that would give more overhead but it would eliminate the risk of some malicious Thunderbolt device reading everything in your memory unhindered.

But yeah, USB has its share of security issues as well.

A intermediary memory controller would definitely solve 90% of the security issues with exposing the PCIe bus. I'm not an expert on ThunderBolt either, most of the info I know about is from reading information online. 

[patrickjp93]

so we still have broadwell and then skylake so a minimum of ~1.5 years till we potentially see TB3. I have mini display port devices and thunderbolt ports I know how big it is and square in wise is probably comparable to the USB A connector on the end, which isnt the problem, nor the comparison im making. There is no way a thunderbolt receptacle will fit on say a smartphone or a tablet, at all much less elegantly. I can tell you why also its not meant to because the scope of USB and TB differ greatly. Both exist now for different reasons and will continue to until they are both replaced by something.

Please keep up with the news. At IDF Kirzanich confirmed Skylake launches early H2 2015.

Also, there is MicroDP just like mini HDMI, and they work just fine.