Pro gamer killed selling his PS4 on Craigslist.

[FroggyTaco]

True some automobile accidents are just that...an accident.

 

However ALL of the persons who CHOOSE to drink alcohol or use drugs(Legal & illegal) to the point of being under the influence & then end up being the cause of the automobile collision IMO are not true "accidents". Rather they gambled & lost.

 

There is also the persons whom do not properly maintain their tires air pressure or buy poor quality tires and/or other mechanical issues that disallow them the ability to avoid the accident in the first place.

 

Technically that is negligence & it costs innocent people their lives and/or mobility. Not to mention the incalculable heartache. 

[ComradeHX]

If guns are widespread and every attacker has a gun, you need a gun to protect yourself. That is why your statistics support your argument. But what happens if the attacker doesn't have a gun? Hey, you don't need one either!

 

If guns are a constitutional right, they are going to be widespread! Legal, illegal, it doesn't matter. Once you let them in, you don't get to control it anymore.

 

What happens then? Stories like this happen!

 

People who still need to use guns over here can still get them. My uncle is a farmer and has plenty of double barrel shotguns and a rifle (pest control etc). I on the other hand have no reason to have a gun and so I am not allowed one. However if I am a complete gun nut, I can join a club and then be eligible for a sporting license. So you only get to have a gun if you have a legitimate reason to have one, not just for the sake of having one. So going back to your "get rid of all the cooking knives" scenario, well most people cook so most people need knives. The same isn't true for guns though.

 

 

 

Give a man a new tool and he just can't wait to use his shiny new tool. He will even look for jobs just so he can use his tool. 

Again, you are expecting criminals to not have a gun.

 

If there is a need; there is a way.

 

What happens?  Stories like many others about criminals being put down by firearm before he harms the innocent happens.

 

Self defense is a legitimate reason to have a firearm.

You don't need to cook at all; you can buy premade food or eat at restaurant.

 

You can't refuse to defense yourself(you can but then you die), though.

 

You expect people who get guns to go out and shoot others?

Nope; they shoot targets...vast majority of firearms purchased in U.S. are not involved in crimes.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/the-right-to-bear-arms-over-10800000-guns-sold-in-the-usa-in-2011_01212012

If that was the case then they would shoot you and loot your body, not ask you to hand it over.

Also, in that case having a gun don't help you at all because the robber will shoot you before you can even react.

 

And you are supposed to be waiting for them to make a decision whether to kill you or not?

 

In that case your "give up wallet" move won't work either.  That's kind of the price you pay for not paying attention to your surroundings.

[cesrai]

They are allowed to defend themselves. It's just that his definition of "defend" is "murder someone by shooting them".

You are allowed to defend yourself only if the situation absolutely requires it, and you are not allowed to use more force than the situation needs. For example if the thief tries to run away you're not allowed to chase after him just to beat him some more.

At least that's how it is here in Sweden, and we have a very very low violent crime rates so we must be doing something right.

So let me get it straight lets say a thief breaks in and I'm outside when I came back to my home I saw I can chase him and retrieve the things that he has stolen and maybe beat his ass and don't let him run until the police comes, is that okay or not?

[Trik'Stari]

Can I say one thing? I really hope Linus doesn't cover this topic on WAN show this week, beyond saying "terrible tragedy, condolences to the family". I just prefer to see him sidestep this hornets nest of arguments and discord, Just say no @LinusTech

[qmully]

This is really horrible. Really stupid. Also don't judge the whole american gun deal. It's one of the rights that we are lucky to enjoy and is a major part of American society/ belief system.

[Fulgrim]

If guns are widespread and every attacker has a gun, you need a gun to protect yourself. That is why your statistics support your argument. But what happens if the attacker doesn't have a gun? Hey, you don't need one either!

Again, i can kind of see the logic in your argument, but the way you've gone about it is stupid. If someone has the intent to cause harm to someone, the victim has the right to defend themselves. 

[LAwLz]

We can poke holes in each others hypothetical situations all day, simple fact is, you can't own a gun, your less safe as a result, regardless of statistics and probabilities, you have no means with which to defend yourself against someone who doesn't give 2 shits about the laws

I didn't really have to poke a hole in it. It was full of holes to begin with.

I can get a gun if I want (although I'd have to get a license for it) but I am actually safer without it. The crime rate here is so low I'd never get the chance to use it. I am not comfortable with the idea of killing another human being so chances are I wouldn't fire anyway. And last but not least, there is 0% risk of an accident happening if I don't own the gun to begin with. There are many accidents involving guns so the simple act of having one increases the risk of you getting shot.

 

I have plenty of ways to defend myself. Attack is not always the best defense.

 

 

And you are supposed to be waiting for them to make a decision whether to kill you or not?

I am pretty sure they have already decided to shoot you if they even consider "I have to kill this person so I can't be caught". It's not like a quick time even in a game.

Also, have you even seen the the amount of robberies vs amount of shootings in a robbery? You rarely get shot in a robbery, and trying to engage in combat with the thief only increases the risk.

Thief rarely have the intention of killing. They just want your money.

 

 

Anyway I am out now. No point in trying to use logic, reason and statics against someone who dismiss them as "irrelevant".

I'll lurk but not respond.

[smjpl]

Again, you are expecting criminals to not have a gun.

 

You seem to say that as if it is a inconceivable concept. You do realise this is perfectly common in countries where guns are not a right! Criminals can commit crime without guns! Shocking isn't it!

 

Okay granted, guns are still used in crime here but that is only really in high level crime. Not petty theft and so in most cases, the only people getting shot here are other gangsters. 

[Trik'Stari]

I didn't really have to poke a hole in it. It was full of holes to begin with.

I can get a gun if I want (although I'd have to get a license for it) but I am actually safer without it. The crime rate here is so low I'd never get the chance to use it. I am not comfortable with the idea of killing another human being so chances are I wouldn't fire anyway. And last but not least, there is 0% risk of an accident happening if I don't own the gun to begin with. There are many accidents involving guns so the simple act of having one increases the risk of you getting shot.

 

I have plenty of ways to defend myself. Attack is not always the best defense.

 

 

I am pretty sure they have already decided to shoot you if they even consider "I have to kill this person so I can't be caught". It's not like a quick time even in a game.

Also, have you even seen the the amount of robberies vs amount of shootings in a robbery? You rarely get shot in a robbery, and trying to engage in combat with the thief only increases the risk.

Thief rarely have the intention of killing. They just want your money.

 

 

Anyway I am out now. No point in trying to use logic, reason and statics against someone who dismiss them as "irrelevant".

I'll lurk but not respond.

Your statistics are wrong, most criminals when faced with a gun wielding opponent will surrender or run rather than fight, however they will fight you hand to hand, ask any cop. And once again, without a gun, your chances of defending yourself against someone with a gun are slim to none.

[ComradeHX]

I am pretty sure they have already decided to shoot you if they even consider "I have to kill this person so I can't be caught". It's not like a quick time even in a game.

Also, have you even seen the the amount of robberies vs amount of shootings in a robbery? You rarely get shot in a robbery, and trying to engage in combat with the thief only increases the risk.

Thief rarely have the intention of killing. They just want your money.

 

 

Anyway I am out now. No point in trying to use logic, reason and statics against someone who dismiss them as "irrelevant".

I'll lurk but not respond.

You assume you know the mind of a criminal.

Please go teach at police academy.

 

Amount of shooting in robbery?  Post source.

Of course they rarely have intention of killing.

That's why they would not risk getting into a potentially fatal confrontation if you have a firearm.

 

In your post, logic, reason...etc. do not exist if you can't even post actual statistics(proof).

 

 

You seem to say that as if it is a inconceivable concept. You do realise this is perfectly common in countries where guns are not a right! Criminals can commit crime without guns! Shocking isn't it!

 

Okay granted, guns are still used in crime here but that is only really in high level crime. Not petty theft and so in most cases, the only people getting shot here are other gangsters. 

Fact is that criminals who want to shoot you will have a gun.

If you don't have a gun; a knife would do the job.

You being killed by gun or knife both results in you being dead.  Shocking isn't it!

 

The difference is that having a gun mostly prevents you from getting killed by knives(a common household item).

So...not having a gun just makes you an easy job for criminals.

 

Much sheep; such wow.

[smjpl]

Again, i can kind of see the logic in your argument, but the way you've gone about it is stupid. If someone has the intent to cause harm to someone, the victim has the right to defend themselves. 

 

Exactly. If someone comes at you with a knife, you have the right to use one yourself. But since you have a knife as well, he will go for a gun. Well then you have to get one or you will be screwed. But if you get a gun, then he needs a full auto. You see where this is going?

 

So why doesn't everyone just use knives? The attacker/defender is going to be on the same playing field anyway but at least there is a much smaller crossfire with knives.

[Trik'Stari]

Exactly. If someone comes at you with a knife, you have the right to use one yourself. But since you have a knife as well, he will go for a gun. Well then you have to get one or you will be screwed. But if you get a gun, then he needs a full auto. You see where this is going?

Yeah if someone comes at me with a knife, their getting shot, probably in the leg if their lucky. That's not excessive force, that's self defense. Excessive force is me leaning over him and shooting him a second time, in the head. (also that'd be murder)

[Raid]

Your statistics are wrong, most criminals when faced with a gun wielding opponent will surrender or run rather than fight, however they will fight you hand to hand, ask any cop. And once again, without a gun, your chances of defending yourself against someone with a gun are slim to none.

I've not seen a single criminal or junkie with a gun. Legal or otherwise. And I've seen plenty of criminals and junkies.

Maybe this isn't really an issue in most countries outside of USA?

[ComradeHX]

Exactly. If someone comes at you with a knife, you have the right to use one yourself. But since you have a knife as well, he will go for a gun. Well then you have to get one or you will be screwed. But if you get a gun, then he needs a full auto. You see where this is going?

 

So why doesn't everyone just use knives? The attacker/defender is going to be on the same playing field anyway but at least there is a much smaller crossfire with knives.

The difference is that knives(physical strength and length of arm/leg also gives advantage) take a lot more effort to use while gun(whether you are tall or short, strong or weak, thin or fat...it does not matter much) only need one trigger pull.

[Trik'Stari]

I've not seen a single criminal or junkie with a gun. Legal or otherwise. And I've seen plenty of criminals and junkies.

Maybe this isn't really an issue in most countries outside of USA?

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Once again, false sense of security.

[Fulgrim]

Exactly. If someone comes at you with a knife, you have the right to use one yourself. But if your man goes for a gun, well then you have to get one or you will be screwed. But if you get a gun, then he needs a fully auto to attack you. You see where this is going?

If someone came at me with a knife, and i had a gun i would pull it on him. If the aggressor runs away, problem solved. If he still comes at me, then he'll be getting a bullet to the knee. It's classed as self defense. 

 

If i was unarmed however, it would depend on what he is after. If it's my wallet/rucksack/phone, i'd throw it to him, and hope he is satisfied, and doesn't stab me. If however he wants to stab me regardless, he will try and do so.

 

If he had a gun, it'd be the same thing pretty much - i could hand over my possessions if that what he is after, but if he wants to cause me injury, or to kill then he will do so regardless. If i had a gun however, at some point i could pull it on him, or if another person who is within the vicinity who legally owns a gun could step in and take action.

 

 

I've not seen a single criminal or junkie with a gun. Legal or otherwise. And I've seen plenty of criminals and junkies.

Maybe this isn't really an issue in most countries outside of USA?

 

So because you think you have seen a few criminals/junkies as you put it without a gun it means none of them do? Again, another stupid statement.  <_<

[Trik'Stari]

I think we've all missed one culprit in this, CRAIGSLIST. It's not the first time it's been used to commit crimes.

[snes]

Yeah I've heard of that, what's the deal with that? Someone breaks into your house and you can't at the least beat the living hell out of them? Over here the police expect a dead body most of the time.

Self justice is ilegal. You hurt someone and even if he was a guy who tried to rob you, he will be able to sue you and you will be the one who has to pay and/or goes to jail.

We are expected to report any incident to the police so that they can try to track down the suspect themselfes. German police officers are too afraid to touch a foreigner, because it is guaranteed that they will play the race card. If that happens, it is more than likely that the police officer will lose his job and the foreigner will receive a formal apology. Most foreigners know about this and some even try to provoke conflicts.

 

Two examples that you may be able to translate with Google:

 http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/arabische-grossfamilien-staat-kuscht-vor-kriminellen-clans-a-721741.html

 http://www.kriegsberichterstattung.com/id/3296/RTL-extra-Wie-Chaoten-und-Auslaender-deutsche-Polizisten-bespucken-und-beleidigen---ungestraft/

 

German, but good footage that doesn't need to be in english:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xVyKDFK_Gk

[Raid]

So because you think you have seen a few criminals/junkies as you put it without a gun it means none of them do? Again, another stupid statement.  <_<

Not at all. Of course some own guns, that's expected. It's just that I've not met any with guns so far which means I'm not very likely to in the future. Not everyone lives in an area with a lot of armed criminals.

[Trik'Stari]

Self justice is ilegal. You hurt someone and even if he was a guy who tried to rob you, he will be able to sue you and you will be the one who has to pay and/or goes to jail.

We are expected to report any incident to the police so that they can try to track down the suspect themselfes. German police officers are too afraid to touch a foreigner, because it is guaranteed that they will play the race card. If that happens, it is more than likely that the police officer will lose his job and the foreigner will receive a formal apology. Most foreigners know about this and some even try to provoke conflicts.

 

Two examples that you may be able to translate with Google:

 http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/arabische-grossfamilien-staat-kuscht-vor-kriminellen-clans-a-721741.html

 http://www.kriegsberichterstattung.com/id/3296/RTL-extra-Wie-Chaoten-und-Auslaender-deutsche-Polizisten-bespucken-und-beleidigen---ungestraft/

 

German, but good footage that doesn't need to be in english:

In the US every citizen has the right to make a "citizens arrest". If you witness a crime, you have the right to attempt to detain the suspect, and call the police. It's not self justice really, just citizens arrest.

 

 

Not at all. Of course some own guns, that's expected. It's just that I've not met any with guns so far which means I'm not very likely to in the future. Not everyone lives in an area with a lot of armed criminals.

Around here we call them "the police" lol

[Fulgrim]

Not at all. Of course some own guns, that's expected. It's just that I've not met any with guns so far which means I'm not very likely to in the future. Not everyone lives in an area with a lot of armed criminals.

False sense of security, you do not know everyone in your town/city so you cannot know how many firearms there are available, either legally owned or not.

 

It's not like your local ciminal is gonna walk up to you and say "hey mate, wanna see my shooter?". (No sexual innuendo intended.)

[Trik'Stari]

False sense of security, you do not know everyone in your town/city so you cannot know how many firearms there are available, either legally owned or not.

Don't steal my line lol

[smjpl]

Yeah if someone comes at me with a knife, their getting shot, probably in the leg if their lucky. That's not excessive force, that's self defense. Excessive force is me leaning over him and shooting him a second time, in the head. (also that'd be murder)

 

 

Ok...?

 

That has nothing to do with what my point. Are you just playing fantasies in your head now because your bored? 

 

 

The difference is that knifes take a lot more effort to use while gun only need one trigger pull.

 

 

If someone came at me with a knife, and i had a gun i would pull it on him. If the aggressor runs away, problem solved. If he still comes at me, then he'll be getting a bullet to the knee. It's classed as self defense. 

 

If i was unarmed however, it would depend on what he is after. If it's my wallet/rucksack/phone, i'd throw it to him, and hope he is satisfied, and doesn't stab me. If however he wants to stab me regardless, he will try and do so.

 

If he had a gun, it'd be the same thing pretty much - i could hand over my possessions if that what he is after, but if he wants to cause me injury, or to kill then he will do so regardless. If i had a gun however, at some point i could pull it on him, or if another person who is within the vicinity who legally owns a gun could step in and take action.

 

 

 

So because you think you have seen a few criminals/junkies as you put it without a gun it means none of them do? Again, another stupid statement.  <_<

 

You don't get it! Any of you! My point is, as soon as anyone pulls a gun, then everyone needs one. With that said, if you are both on the same playing field (i.e. both knives or both guns) then it doesn't matter whether you's have knifes or a guns. The result will be the same. And with that, why do you need a gun? The results stays the same anyway, there is just a lot less crossfire if everyone only has knives.

[LAwLz]

I think we've all missed one culprit in this, CRAIGSLIST. It's not the first time it's been used to commit crimes.

Craigslist simply offers a service which is usually used for good things.

It's like blaming a store for selling a kitchen knife which was used to stab someone. Craigslist did nothing wrong.

 

I know I said I wouldn't post anymore but this is not about gun control.

[Raid]

False sense of security, you do not know everyone in your town/city so you cannot know how many firearms there are available, either legally owned or not.

 

It's not like your local junkie is gonna walk up to you and say "hey mate, wanna see my pistol?". (No sexual innuendo intended.)

In that case I'd prefer a false sense of security over being paranoid. I do not want to worry all the time about getting shot by some random guy on the street.