Valve bans Euro Truck Simulator dev for demonstrating a security vulnerability in steam

[FlakeyBanana]

In this day and age I don't think something like that can stay a secret.

 

dude are you for reals? , i know your not that much into the blackhat scene but private exploits can go for crazy money and remain for ages.

[Misanthrope]

There has to be a lot of trust between devs and steam. They don't test the binaries that devs upload... 

 

There shouldn't be that much trust: Valve it's just being lazy, all around. Particularly when they allow this kind of crap:

 

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/9281-Air-Control-A-Steam-Abuse-Story

[LAwLz]

Are we really talking XSS vunarability ? If yes, that's terrible. Can't believe my lord would allow such a noob mistake. 

Yes

The <script> tags were not filtered at all. You could add any script you wanted, including XSS.

 

 

I would have banned him for life for Harlem Shake.

 

But other than that I still find it ridiculous to draw extra attention to a possible security vulnerability. Nothing is 100% secure. Trying to patch up every single flaw would leave you with a crippled experience.

 

By drawing attention to this "flaw" this developer just invited other people to use it for no reason whereas before most people did not know it existed or cared that it existed. It isn't a security flaw if there is no one using it.

 

Valve was right to say they trust developers to not fuck up because if they do, this happens to them.

By drawing attention to this "flaw" this developer just invited other people to use it for no reason whereas before most people did not know it existed or cared that it existed. It isn't a security flaw if there is no one using it.

It isn't a security flaw if there is no one using it.

 

I can't believe you actually said that...

 

 

There shouldn't be that much trust: Valve it's just being lazy, all around. Particularly when they allow this kind of crap:

 

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/9281-Air-Control-A-Steam-Abuse-Story

Yeah if I were Valve, I wouldn't give the developer of that game the power to run any script they want, including such ones that could steal the users credit card info.

 

If you really like Valve then you should speak up when they are doing something bad. A loyal fan does not sit silently and watch as their favorite company sets fire to themselves. A loyal fan speaks up and says "hey Valve, pouring gasoline on yourself before you go to the cigarette lighter factory isn't a good idea. Maybe you should stop before you hurt yourself".

[StingBull]

I can't believe you actually said that...

 

Which that? You have quoted me three times.

[pixeldensity]

I would have banned him for life for Harlem Shake.

 

But other than that I still find it ridiculous to draw extra attention to a possible security vulnerability. Nothing is 100% secure. Trying to patch up every single flaw would leave you with a crippled experience.

 

By drawing attention to this "flaw" this developer just invited other people to use it for no reason whereas before most people did not know it existed or cared that it existed. It isn't a security flaw if there is no one using it.

 

Valve was right to say they trust developers to not fuck up because if they do, this happens to them.

i disagree with you. Steam as a service and Valve as a company are responsible to find these exploits whether they find it themselves or someone else finds it and patch it up as some as possible.

 

To address your last sentence, I know this sound cynical, but never trust them. There are a thousand of developers big and small, as a company you can't assume that everybody will follow the rules. All it takes is one dev to go "Okay lets rob these people" they come up with a scam game like some examples include air control, get people to visit their page and bam you get robbed.

 

Look I love Valve and steam but Valve seems to be getting lazy from their customer support to their lack of quality control. If this was facebook or Origin or Uplay we would be at their doors demanding someone's head to be chopped off. Valve needs to get it together.

 

Lastly, Valve should never have punished these guys, there are alot of people who find bug or exploits and get rewarded. Look at M$ when that five year old found that password exploit did M$ punish him, no they rewarded him.

[dmegatool]

i disagree with you. Steam as a service and Valve as a company are responsible to find these exploits whether they find it themselves or someone else finds it and patch it up as some as possible.

 

To address your last sentence, I know this sound cynical, but never trust them. There are a thousand of developers big and small, as a company you can't assume that everybody will follow the rules. All it takes is one dev to go "Okay lets rob these people" they come up with a scam game like some examples include air control, get people to visit their page and bam you get robbed.

 

Look I love Valve and steam but Valve seems to be getting lazy from their customer support to their lack of quality control. If this was facebook or Origin or Uplay we would be at their doors demanding someone's head to be chopped off. Valve needs to get it together.

 

Lastly, Valve should never have punished these guys, there are alot of people who find bug or exploits and get rewarded. Look at M$ when that five year old found that password exploit did M$ punish him, no they rewarded him.

Difference is that the 5yo kid didn't expose the security flaw to everybody before it was fixed. It's pretty much the same situation but Microsoft did what it had to do... fix the exploit. It's really coming down to "Will they fix it or tell you to piss off ?"

 

<Sacarms script>But that Microsoft thing wasn't a security flaw as there was no one using it</script>

[StingBull]

-snip-

 

I agree on Valve has been way to reluctant to take resposibility. They have this dream where they can completely automate Steam and create a self-sustaining money machine for themselves. I'm not sure that's the best thing for consumers.

 

I disagree that it was wrong for him to be punished. Like I said, he betrayed the trust he was given. Severity of the punishment is another issue.

[killers993]

To steam/Valve 

 

[LAwLz]

Which that? You have quoted me three times.

The only part that is quoted 3 times. I can't believe you said that a huge gaping security hole which could lead to people having their credit card info stolen isn't a security hole because it hasn't been exploited yet.

It's like saying you don't need seat belts in your car because you haven't crashed with it yet. Then when someone jokingly makes you think you're going to crash you go "baww you dummy! Now you've shown me what a stupid idea it is to not have seat belts and I will punish you for that! You're such a jerk for making me install seat belts in my car!".

 

When it comes to security, you should NEVER go "I have faith that this huge gaping security hole won't be exploited". Especially not when developers have reported the issue to you.

Security, especially for a service which handles money transactions and hold private information about your customers, should always take top priority and be taken very seriously.

The fact that Valve ignored the issue has seriously reduced my trust for them. Valve did 3 things wrong here. First they put trust in users (honestly, do you trust developers like the people behind Air Control? I don't). Secondly, they ignored the vulnerability after it was reported. Last but not least, they punish the developers which exposed the issue (in a very harmless way) after Valve ignored them.

 

The only thing Euro Truck Simulator should have done differently (if you ask me), was that they should have threatened Valve before showing the exploit to everyone. I would have said "If you don't fix this, we will show that you can run scripts on the page". If they kept ignoring me then I would have shown it. If they banned my account after making the threat then I would have contacted sites like The Verge and other sites and told them about the issue.

[StingBull]

The only thing Euro Truck Simulator should have done differently (if you ask me), was that they should have threatened Valve before showing the exploit to everyone. I would have said "If you don't fix this, we will show that you can run scripts on the page". If they kept ignoring me then I would have shown it. If they banned my account after making the threat then I would have contacted sites like The Verge and other sites and told them about the issue.

 

You can see that the way he handled the situation was wrong. What I meant by what I wrote is exactly this. He pointed out a flaw to everyone when not a lot of people knew this before and now people who had no idea know the flaw. That's not helping security.

 

Or more likely people knew it but they didn't care because they are smart enough to not mess with it. Do you believe that this guy was the first to discover this? I don't. I think this was already known by most developers and they didn't consider this a threat.

[JAKEBAB]

What does this mean for euro truck simulator?

[Misanthrope]

You can see that the way he handled the situation was wrong. What I meant by what I wrote is exactly this. He pointed out a flaw to everyone when not a lot of people knew this before and now people who had no idea know the flaw. That's not helping security.

 

Or more likely people knew it but they didn't care because they are smart enough to not mess with it. Do you believe that this guy was the first to discover this? I don't. I think this was already known by most developers and they didn't consider this a threat.

 

He gave Valve plenty of opportunity to correct it and got ignored. The only damage done here was to Valve's ego and THAT is why he got punished.

[BoredErica]

They screwed around, they got banned. Tough luck. I wouldn't have banned them but you can't REALLY put Steam at fault here.

[JAKEBAB]

Is this the reason ETS2 is on sale on Origin but not Steam?

euro truck simulator isnt on origin.....

[Fetzie]

I don't think so, If it was that easy why hasn't it happened up until now?

 

No developer in the world is stupid enough exploit this. It doesn't matter if the flaw is there no one will use it because no developer would dare being kicked out of Steam.

 

Hype your game on reddit and social media, put the script in the page, watch the money fly in. Cash out before Steam steps in and bans you. Maybe run a bogus crowdfunding campaign for some extra cash on the side.

[kamiyo]

You can see that the way he handled the situation was wrong. What I meant by what I wrote is exactly this. He pointed out a flaw to everyone when not a lot of people knew this before and now people who had no idea know the flaw. That's not helping security.

 

Or more likely people knew it but they didn't care because they are smart enough to not mess with it. Do you believe that this guy was the first to discover this? I don't. I think this was already known by most developers and they didn't consider this a threat.

So you're saying it's a good idea to leave a vulnerability open?

 

They screwed around, they got banned. Tough luck. I wouldn't have banned them but you can't REALLY put Steam at fault here.

You can't put them at fault for not fixing the problem in the first place?

[sof006]

I'm dissagabened.

Put your word into Google and this is the ONLY thread that shows up in Google. The feels.

 

[Paralectic]

Put your word into Google and this is the ONLY thread that shows up in Google. The feels.

 

Haha

[StingBull]

He gave Valve plenty of opportunity to correct it and got ignored. The only damage done here was to Valve's ego and THAT is why he got punished.

 

I think he got punished because he wasn't just trying to fix the flaw, he was trying to stroke his own ego, show that he is smarter than Valve. Because if I was in his position and wanted to fix this and Valve wasn't listening to me, I would go to Verge and Kotaku and make this knowledge public without abusing the flaw. Public pressure would have forced Valve.

[BoredErica]

So you're saying it's a good idea to leave a vulnerability open?

 

You can't put them at fault for not fixing the problem in the first place?

No, it's not like Steam purposefully left the bug there as a form of entrapment. You blame the guy committing the offense. This is like blaming the bank because the bank robber was able to get past security.

[KakaoDj]

Is this what happened?

 

[Scionyde]

This is a borderline necro post, so I'm sorry about that. Has anybody heard anything about this since then? According to http://istimmystillbanned.info/ it seems the ban has been lifted, but I never saw any media coverage about it or details about it. I hope it's true - I'd like to believe that the Valve employees who have been slipping a bit with Steam are capable of pulling their heads out of their asses. 

[Misanthrope]

This is a borderline necro post, so I'm sorry about that. Has anybody heard anything about this since then? According to http://istimmystillbanned.info/ it seems the ban has been lifted, but I never saw any media coverage about it or details about it. I hope it's true - I'd like to believe that the Valve employees who have been slipping a bit with Steam are capable of pulling their heads out of their asses. 

 

He was likely warned not to make any comments so it doesn't becomes a permaban

[dalekphalm]

I would have banned him for life for Harlem Shake.

 

But other than that I still find it ridiculous to draw extra attention to a possible security vulnerability. Nothing is 100% secure. Trying to patch up every single flaw would leave you with a crippled experience.

 

By drawing attention to this "flaw" this developer just invited other people to use it for no reason whereas before most people did not know it existed or cared that it existed. It isn't a security flaw if there is no one using it.

 

Valve was right to say they trust developers to not fuck up because if they do, this happens to them.

You should... honestly never work in IT...

 

I don't mean to be harsh, but that is literally an insane concept of security. A security flaw is still a security flaw even if no one has discovered it. ESPECIALLY if the coders (in this case, Valve) knew it existed.

 

AND even if you could (incorrectly) claim that it wasn't a security flaw until discovered, well guess what? Euro Truck Sim devs DID discover it. < script > tags are incredibly dangerous and should never be used on a platform like Steam. Unless someone can post a VALID reason to have them enabled that counter balances the potential damage?

 

As an example that @Fetzie brought up, you could write a script that makes a user buy a game when they visit a certain page, without their knowledge or consent. This could be massively abused if a devs account gets compromised (hijacked or hacked), or even if a scammer dev gets greenlit for example.

 

Yes there is a balance that must be made, and if a vulnerability is discovered that isn't particularly harmful compared to the usefulness of the feature tied to it, then yeah sure maybe you could keep it hidden. But that is NOT the case.

 

Furthermore, let's say that Euro Truck Sim devs found this flaw, told Valve, who did nothing about it, and then YOUR MONEY got stolen because of the flaw. You would be pissed and up-in-arms, ESPECIALLY if you later found out that Valve knew about it, DOUBLE ESPECIALLY if you found out that Euro Truck Sim devs discovered it as well and didn't say anything.

 

In my opinion, Euro Truck devs did the right thing. If Valve wasn't going to fix it, then they needed to be forced into fixing it (Which hopefully they will now do).

 

You do realize that most major software firms have CASH BOUNTIES for when you discover a flaw/vulnerability and tell them about it? Valve is flying in the complete reverse direction, and not for the better.

[Kev]

You should... honestly never work in IT...

 

I don't mean to be harsh, but that is literally an insane concept of security. A security flaw is still a security flaw even if no one has discovered it. ESPECIALLY if the coders (in this case, Valve) knew it existed.

 

AND even if you could (incorrectly) claim that it wasn't a security flaw until discovered, well guess what? Euro Truck Sim devs DID discover it. < script > tags are incredibly dangerous and should never be used on a platform like Steam. Unless someone can post a VALID reason to have them enabled that counter balances the potential damage?

 

As an example that @Fetzie brought up, you could write a script that makes a user buy a game when they visit a certain page, without their knowledge or consent. This could be massively abused if a devs account gets compromised (hijacked or hacked), or even if a scammer dev gets greenlit for example.

 

Yes there is a balance that must be made, and if a vulnerability is discovered that isn't particularly harmful compared to the usefulness of the feature tied to it, then yeah sure maybe you could keep it hidden. But that is NOT the case.

 

Furthermore, let's say that Euro Truck Sim devs found this flaw, told Valve, who did nothing about it, and then YOUR MONEY got stolen because of the flaw. You would be pissed and up-in-arms, ESPECIALLY if you later found out that Valve knew about it, DOUBLE ESPECIALLY if you found out that Euro Truck Sim devs discovered it as well and didn't say anything.

 

In my opinion, Euro Truck devs did the right thing. If Valve wasn't going to fix it, then they needed to be forced into fixing it (Which hopefully they will now do).

 

You do realize that most major software firms have CASH BOUNTIES for when you discover a flaw/vulnerability and tell them about it? Valve is flying in the complete reverse direction, and not for the better.

Thank you! I can't belive that some people are so blinded by fanboyism that they can't see how insanely stupid Valve is for leaving the exploit in. Euro Truck Driver dev should have been given a prize for finding it.