McDonald's Locations to start using Facial Biometrics for Time Clock.

[SynisterE5]

McDonald's is moving to use facial scans to clock in/out. It has yet to be implemented however we are being told to sign a form permitting the franchise to hold onto biometric face data until a reasonable time has passed when you are no longer with "Franchise company name". They don't define what a reasonable amout of time is, they are making people sign when they come to pick up thier paychecks with very little detail as the management have little detail. We already use fingerprint biometrics to clock in and out there, to me doesnt seem to be a need to move to facial. Unfortunately the franchise I am accosiated with does not take digital security very seriously and if they are the ones responsible for holding that data it makes it difficult to feel comfortable with them having that data, in addition to my belief that that data will be far more important in the future, more than just unlokcing your phone, possibly vehicles and homes in the future if not more. I am also concerned about the law enforcment aspect of this as well, cops potentially being able to get my facial biometrics from a current or former employer to use in conjection with facial cameras that are slowly proliferating. I personally do not feel comfortable giving McDonald's or it's Franchisee's the same data that I would Apple, or Google or whatever device maker who I belive has more incentive to keep that data safe and maybe more aware of ways that it could be compromised.

 

Currently this is taking place in California, I would like to know is this a more common practice than  I am aware of and should I just "get over it" as it were. If it is not commonplace then I think it may make an interesting WAN show topic, and possibly hear a more nuanced take on this. Attached is a screen grab of an Email at the top will mention the new time clock change from a technology partner of McDonald's they send to IT staff of differing levels to show some evidence of this coming. I did not see any topics about it in a search I apologize if it was covered and I missed it.

 

Edit: added the collection agreement signoff blocked company name

 

Edited April 14 by SynisterE5
Added signoff agreement

[wanderingfool2]

9 minutes ago, SynisterE5 said:

Currently this is taking place in California, I would like to know is this a more common practice than  I am aware of and should I just "get over it" as it were. If it is not commonplace

I'm not sure if it's commonplace, but I bet it's going to become more and more common place.

 

Honestly, the amount of times I had to pull security footage to verify if an employee actually was the one who clocked in and out was a lot higher than I would like.  Managers covering for employees, or other employees covering for others [by knowing their punch codes]

[SynisterE5]

https://altametrics.com/companies/mcdonalds/new-time-clock/

Found a link to the new clock for those interested.

[Eigenvektor]

Never heard of a company doing this, nor do I think this would fly anywhere in Europe. "Reasonable time" is also very non-descriptive. I'd say if people want to fight this, now is the time, once it's been established it's too late.

[SynisterE5]

5 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Honestly, the amount of times I had to pull security footage to verify if an employee actually was the one who clocked in and out was a lot higher than I would like.  Managers covering for employees, or other employees covering for others [by knowing their punch codes]

I understand that, however, we can view it very easily on our BoS Computer whether a punch was done biometrically via thumbprint or punched in manually.

[Erioch]

They been using facial recognition in airports for some time now.  I'm for anything that speeds up the process.

 

We got rid of our fingerprint readers at work during covid.  Those things always sucked.

[wanderingfool2]

31 minutes ago, SynisterE5 said:

I understand that, however, we can view it very easily on our BoS Computer whether a punch was done biometrically via thumbprint or punched in manually.

A lot of biometric scanners don't work nearly as well as one would expect.

 

Handprint scanners fail if someone has swollen hands.  Fingerprint ones tend to fail if the persons hands go from dry to being wet [like if lets say someone washes their hands].  Punch in manually can be tricked.

 

When I managed it hand-prints I had to secretly setup exceptions so anyone could technically use the handpunch with them about 10% of the employees...the fingerprint clock was about 5% of employees [by secretly setup I mean not tell the employee that technically anyone could enter their code and use their "finger" to id them]

[SynisterE5]

29 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

A lot of biometric scanners don't work nearly as well as one would expect.

The ones we use are just finger print and can and do have issues, they used to have a gel coating that would get dirty and be impossible to use or clean, and they can and often do struggle with darker skin tones. With that being said not sure that the facial scan wouldn't have the same issues or simply couldn't be solved with limiting clocking in to an ID badge.

[manikyath]

i'm gonna say an asshole thing here..

- ask your manager to define it more clearly before you sign it.

- if they will not, or force you to sign away your rights on the spot, find a different job.

 

maybe that's coming from a very european viewpoint, where companies literally cannot find enough staff..

[LAwLz]

I don't see this as a big deal.

You're already handing away biometric data and seem to be fine with that, and I believe the fingerprint to be more sensitive data than your face.

 

I also see this as possibly speeding up the process compared to fingerprints.

 

Sadly, i also see McDonalds as being a place where employees are less than trustworthy and could use some more monitoring. A lot of young teenagers who try to cheat a bit.

 

Outside of some wording (which is hard to tell without reading the full contract) I see this as a non issue.

[whispous]

2 hours ago, Eigenvektor said:

Never heard of a company doing this, nor do I think this would fly anywhere in Europe. "Reasonable time" is also very non-descriptive. I'd say if people want to fight this, now is the time, once it's been established it's too late.

Been doing it for years at the place I work, in the UK.

 

The profiles are stored in the cloud but the biometric data (faces) are device ONLY - device gets swapped? Re-register your face.

[Erioch]

7 hours ago, LAwLz said:

You're already handing away biometric data and seem to be fine with that, and I believe the fingerprint to be more sensitive data than your face.

Not to mention they have your full legal name, address, phone number, SSN, etc, probably on paper in the office as well and electronically.

[wanderingfool2]

7 hours ago, whispous said:

Been doing it for years at the place I work, in the UK.

 

The profiles are stored in the cloud but the biometric data (faces) are device ONLY - device gets swapped? Re-register your face.

Should be noted as well, facial recognition as well tends to build up based on hashes...so it's not like you actually be able to recreate the face from the hash.

 

e.g. A few ways that it can keep a hash, using the distance between your eyes, nose width/length, width between cheek bones, and distance from eyes to mouth.  Even with storing those numbers you can get decently accurate results and the key is it really isnt like it's storing sensitive data.

 

 

 

As long as the data is only used for work related purposes, I really don't see too much of the big deal that people seem to have.  Even if they kept your data after you left, what harm is there?  If they get hacked sure...but they will have far more important information on you.  I don't really see much of a market for a face hash.  Especially when you consider that most people if you knew their name, places they worked, etc you could easily find most people's faces online and do it anyways.

 

  

8 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Sadly, i also see McDonalds as being a place where employees are less than trustworthy and could use some more monitoring. A lot of young teenagers who try to cheat a bit.

I am lactose intolerant, the amount of times [before digital ordering screens] I would ask for a hamburger and get a cheeseburger instead.  Honestly, I would so love a fully automated McDonalds...then maybe it would actually be affordable again *relative to the quality*

[Lurking]

Isn't facial recognition just a fancier 3D detail of your face? If you have employee ID with picture, they already have the lower quality picture of your face anyway.

 

The additional smartness is in the processing for the device to recognize you (based on the more detailed 3D scan of your face). Like it recognizes you with beart, glasses etc 

 

I guess they then can use facial recognition to track your whole workday through the store cameras. Like if you just hang out in a corner and never actually work all day. But knowing that kind of is the employer's right since they pay you while on the clock.

[whispous]

2 minutes ago, Lurking said:

Isn't facial recognition just a fancier 3D detail of your face?

Not all - some are, but facial recognition is achieved in a number of ways. One common method is just flat image recognition of shapes.

[Lurking]

1 minute ago, whispous said:

Not all - some are, but facial recognition is achieved in a number of ways. One common method is just flat image recognition of shapes.

I meant the data an employee gives the employer is just how the face looks. Regular camera, scanner, or just moving a camera around (like Apple iPhone recognition). If I walk in public, I volunteer to provide that data all day since in public someone can take pics of me. So the employee isn't giving anything protectable away.

 

And other data like SSN, address etc.the employer had anyway.

 

In the old days a manager would just look at the store cameras to see if people are working. Now that is automated.

[SansVarnic]

Time clock keeping is a simple thing, sure let's keep making it more complicated than needed.

We use a simple method, show up at your desk, sign in and clock in. No biometrics needed, no complication.

 

I'm against this for several reasons.  But sure now with McDonalds could just stick with using their id card reader which to my understanding never had an issue unless the employee lost their card then it would be something I tell my employees in my past job. Looks like a you problem, not a me problem. 

 

Leave it to certain workplaces to not push for, well I don't know maybe some responsibility or accountability?

Darn I forgot those are known as bad words these days. gosh darn, guess I need to leave now. 

[Caroline]

Oh well, there goes my plan of escaping south america in a rowboat to become a McDonalds cashier in the USA. Dammit.

12 hours ago, SynisterE5 said:

We already use fingerprint biometrics to clock in and out there, to me doesnt seem to be a need to move to facial.

Then it's not like a huuuuge problem. I still think it's a pretty shitty move to take advantage of desperate teens looking for a job and siphon their biometrics out in exchange for what, a minimum wage? not worth it imo. But the same could apply to banks, and uhh... phones? yeah, users hand out their fingerprints to Google and Apple in exchange for a new shiny slab, I dunno, still looks like a pretty bad deal to me.

[GoStormPlays]

since when does McDonald’s care about its employees??????

 

 

also, this feels kinda ironic coming off the heels of the Amazon Go Cashier-less stores closing.

[Erioch]

I only have one question:  Is the ice cream machine working?

[Rocketdog2112]

17 hours ago, SynisterE5 said:

I personally do not feel comfortable giving McDonald's or it's Franchisee's the same data that I would Apple, or Google or whatever device maker who I belive has more incentive to keep that data safe and maybe more aware of ways that it could be compromised.

 

 

 

 

You trust Apple and Google to keep your data safe? Wow...

[SynisterE5]

4 hours ago, Caroline said:

yeah, users hand out their fingerprints to Google and Apple in exchange for a new shiny slab, I dunno, still looks like a pretty bad deal to me.

I understand that, but I would argue that Google and Apple have more incentive and more ability to keep such data secure. They have 2 thumbprints on file, out of 10 fingers, to me face scans seem like a bridge too far, for as so many would like to argue, a unskilled job for teens.

 

I also cannot go back in time to protect this data if as I tried to convey it becomes far more important in the future. Am still learning and enjoy seeing the different views on this however.

[SynisterE5]

3 minutes ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

You trust Apple and Google to keep your data safe? Wow...

I believe they have more incentive and more to lose. Apple especially tries to market trust and data security to lose that public image would be a bigger blow to them then it would be to McDonald's or a Franchisee of them.

[wanderingfool2]

11 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

Time clock keeping is a simple thing, sure let's keep making it more complicated than needed.

We use a simple method, show up at your desk, sign in and clock in. No biometrics needed, no complication.

Except that you can get people who know each other's sign ins and cover for each other.  It happens, I've seen managers even cover for their employees before [and a lot of the times the managers would claim "there was an issue while he was clocking out".

 

If it was as simple as you claim, I'm sure they would be doing it...except the reason is more likely that they are having issue with people logging/clocking their hours correctly.

 

10 hours ago, Caroline said:

Then it's not like a huuuuge problem. I still think it's a pretty shitty move to take advantage of desperate teens looking for a job and siphon their biometrics out in exchange for what, a minimum wage? not worth it imo. But the same could apply to banks, and uhh... phones? yeah, users hand out their fingerprints to Google and Apple in exchange for a new shiny slab, I dunno, still looks like a pretty bad deal to me.

siphon their biometrics??? Are you seriously trying to claim that it's a ploy to get their biometrics.  Seriously, facebook has so many people's faces; and most people you can find a photo of online.  Your face hash that McDonald's uses wouldn't really be valuable at all.

[SansVarnic]

8 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Except that you can get people who know each other's sign ins and cover for each other.  It happens, I've seen managers even cover for their employees before [and a lot of the times the managers would claim "there was an issue while he was clocking out".

 

If it was as simple as you claim, I'm sure they would be doing it...except the reason is more likely that they are having issue with people logging/clocking their hours correctly.

I used to run a security company; I am aware of the difficulties. Having over 200 officers in the field spread out across the state that needed to clock in/out we had to be inventive until we were able to implement an onsite clock method using smart phones that were Geo locked both for their convenience and provide double duty for onsite reporting, tag reading, etc. and bio metrics used, just a pin number to log in.

I have seen the issue with people covering for each other in other companies, especially managers, its a thing but this can be overcome as well with good training, incentives and other methods. I understand the world is changing [culturally] and steps need to be made to adjust. I get it.

 

But you left out my bigger point when you quoted me.

20 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

Leave it to certain workplaces to not push for, well I don't know maybe some responsibility or accountability?

Granted I was being snotty when I posted.

We pushed hard to give our employees the training they required and needed. We maintained an open and transparent workplace. The trust we openly gave them worked in our favor and in return they did the same. Ya ya, there were still those that were bad apples but that is always going to be a thing regardless of your efforts. Yes, I understand the larger the company the bigger the issues, and things have to be scaled, adjusted and all that, but to me this is still an unnecessary way of doing it. Do I have a better idea? Honestly, no. I am a tried-and-true kind of person. Good leadership equates to good following and eliminates the need to make certain choices that inherently bring up or create the question of mistrust. That is the way I operate and has always worked. Even with all that said, this is McDonalds, not 3M or NY Stock exchange.

 

Even though I disagree with it, I don't work there and likely won't ever; I have said this many times (not here) that they can run their company as they see fit. If you apply and work there, you agree to their terms of employment even with future changes on the employer part. If the terms change you disagree with, there are other opportunities of employment, that is one of the beauties of capitalism.  My opinion has no bearing or the understanding of reasoning behind their decision to implement this.

 

A good example, I have 2 children old enough to work, the location they chose to work at has an application software and a timekeeping method that is asinine and so over complicated the person that designed the software really did a good job of over hyping and fooling the job place. I can't go into detail so not to reveal ppi accidentally but omw its horrendous. But again, it is their company, as much despise it, nothing I could say will help them improve it. 

 

My post was just my initial reaction to the article.

 

8 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

siphon their biometrics??? Are you seriously trying to claim that it's a ploy to get their biometrics. 

I agree with this, it's illogical. And quite the stretch that the stretch armstrong toy couldn't reach it.

Edited April 14 by SansVarnic