comparing prices in Seagate website Drive Design (Air or Helium) what to pick ?

[PSP.]

Hello , 
what better option 

Drive Design (Air or Helium) ?

[PSP.]

https://www.seagate.com/em/en/products/nas-drives/ironwolf-hard-drive/

[Electronics Wizardy]

It looks like only the 10TB model is available in both options. Typically helium is used for large capacity drives, and air is used for smaller drives to save cost. It doesn't seem to matter much for most uses and I haven't seen anything that points to a major difference in failure rate.

 

I'd typically reccomend getting large drives for your nas like 16TB+, so helium is your only option.

[m9x3mos]

3 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

It looks like only the 10TB model is available in both options. Typically helium is used for large capacity drives, and air is used for smaller drives to save cost. It doesn't seem to matter much for most uses and I haven't seen anything that points to a major difference in failure rate.

 

I'd typically reccomend getting large drives for your nas like 16TB+, so helium is your only option.

I think the main reason they use helium is to increase density on the platter and less air resistance. 

The only difference better the two options when both are available is probably just a minor decrease in power consumption I think. 

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, PSP. said:

Hello , 
what better option 

Drive Design (Air or Helium) ?

The isn't a significant difference in reliability, not that you'd notice buying only a few HDDs.

 

The main reason for Helium filled HDDs is due to density and the number of platters so they choose a more stable gas composition that is also lower density than air. Being lower density means less turbulence is created from the rotating platters and moving read/write heads, lower turbulence means more air flow/movement so more cooling capability (more energy is transferred to the outer metal casing of the HDD).

 

If there is no need for Helium then they don't use it, filling an HDD with Helium that doesn't actually need it doesn't really provide any benefit.

[PSP.]

4 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

It looks like only the 10TB model is available in both options. Typically helium is used for large capacity drives, and air is used for smaller drives to save cost. It doesn't seem to matter much for most uses and I haven't seen anything that points to a major difference in failure rate.

 

I'd typically reccomend getting large drives for your nas like 16TB+, so helium is your only option.

I didn't notice only for 12tb option , upgrading from 4tb , deleted some movies to save storage , I was comparing prices only my target was Toshiba 
but 
12tb , 199$
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B084ZTSMWF/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&th=1

checking local prices

[Electronics Wizardy]

1 minute ago, m9x3mos said:

I think the main reason they use helium is to increase density on the platter and less air resistance. 

The only difference better the two options when both are available is probably just a minor decrease in power consumption I think. 

I"d guess for a given capacity the air versions are newer than the helium ones. It used to be the 8TB CMR drives were basically all helium, but now there all air drives. Seems to be happening to 10TB drives now.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

I"d guess for a given capacity the air versions are newer than the helium ones. It used to be the 8TB CMR drives were basically all helium, but now there all air drives. Seems to be happening to 10TB drives now.

Yep, it's really not directly the capacity at all for which is and is not Helium filled. It's just platter count and since aerial density goes up over time the number of platters required for a given capacity goes down.

[m9x3mos]

32 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

I"d guess for a given capacity the air versions are newer than the helium ones. It used to be the 8TB CMR drives were basically all helium, but now there all air drives. Seems to be happening to 10TB drives now.

With advancements I don't think it is needed as much as it was back in like 2017. It is more expensive to use helium so they have inventive to not use it when they can. 

They were able to get better density with using helium due to the lower turbulence vs the air usage. 

There was a blog article about it from western digital a while back. 

[leclod]

1 hour ago, m9x3mos said:

With advancements I don't think it is needed as much as it was back in like 2017. It is more expensive to use helium so they have inventive to not use it when they can. 

They were able to get better density with using helium due to the lower turbulence vs the air usage. 

There was a blog article about it from western digital a while back. 

I agree with @m9x3mos , the air version must be the newer version and faster version.

Less platters means higher data density which means faster data transfer (not that it matters much).

 

@leadeater Higher cooling capacity for helium is bullshit though (I mean if you consider everything this point doesn't make any sense even if it has some truth to it, which I doubt).

 

I did prefer Helium when I started on this post but the wiser choice might be Air.

Edited April 7 by leclod

[leadeater]

7 hours ago, leclod said:

@leadeater Higher cooling capacity for helium is bullshit though (I mean if you consider everything this point doesn't make any sense even if it has some truth to it, which I doubt).

It's not, it has nothing to do with capability of the gas/element to conduct heat and everything to do with turbulence inside the HDD. Would you say airflow through a radiator or heatsink doesn't matter and has no effect on cooling?

 

The manufacturers aren't going to go through all that effort to get Helium inside the HDD if it does nothing and you can still use air even in the most dense platter configurations but they do get too hot.

 

When you have a lot of HDDs in a high density disk shelf and run a high ambient within a datacenter (our set point is 27C) for a better PUE then HDDs get very hot and a couple of degrees less on the upper end of the operating range has a much greater effect on failure rates.

 

Helium in a small NAS or in a desktop means almost nothing which is why I said wouldn't really notice unless you have a lot of them.

[m9x3mos]

13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It's not, it has nothing to do with capability of the gas/element to conduct heat and everything to do with turbulence inside the HDD. The manufacturers aren't going to go through all that effort to get Helium inside the HDD if it does nothing and you can still use air even in the most dense platter configurations but they do get too hot.

 

When you have a lot of HDDs in a high density dish shelf and run a high ambient with a datacenter (our set point is 27C) for a better PUE then HDDs get very hot and a couple of degrees less on the upper end of the operating range has a much greater effect on failure rates.

 

Helium in a small NAS or in a desktop means almost nothing which is why I said wouldn't really notice unless you have a lot of them.

I agree. It wouldn't even be noticeable in the 15 bay storinator hl-15 maybe in the massive one though but most home labs aren't going to be using that. 

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, m9x3mos said:

I agree. It wouldn't even be noticeable in the 15 bay storinator hl-15 maybe in the massive one though but most home labs aren't going to be using that. 

Yep, so many little details just don't matter to most people and you often end up wondering why they go through all that effort until you come across the reason for why. I used to use 10k RPM 3.5" SAS disks at home in my desktop that was water cooled and didn't really have any case airflow, the HDDs would get so hot you couldn't touch them without immediate heat pain, hotter than hot water out of a tap but less than boiling water. I dropped one because of that. TL;DR don't be dumb, give HDDs some fans, even just a tiny bit 

[m9x3mos]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Yep, so many little details just don't matter to most people and you often end up wondering why they go through all that effort until you come across the reason for why. I used to use 10k RPM 3.5" SAS disks at home in my desktop that was water cooled and didn't really have any case airflow, the HDDs would get so hot you couldn't touch them without immediate heat pain, hotter than hot water out of a tap but less than boiling water. I dropped one because of that. TL;DR don't be dumb, give HDDs some fans, even just a tiny bit 

Oh yeah. I remember running wd raptor drives in raid 0 before ssds were a thing and you could cook an egg on those things without airflow. 

[leclod]

5 hours ago, leadeater said:

It's not, it has nothing to do with capability of the gas/element to conduct heat and everything to do with turbulence inside the HDD. Would you say airflow through a radiator or heatsink doesn't matter and has no effect on cooling?

I didn't write the Helium drive doesn't run cooler than a same number of platters Air drive, of course it does.

Less gas density, less friction less heat, less motor power less heat.

I wrote your Higher cooling capacity theory doesn't make any sense. Far too many variables.

Less turbulence, more airflow = higher cooling capacity ? I doubt it. Airflow is good but turbulence is good too for cooling. It must be a balance act. You don't see radiators with one huge hole in the middle for max airflow.

And less gas density = less cooling capacity.

I reread your first explanation, you're mixing everything up.

Edited April 8 by leclod

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, leclod said:

Airflow is good but turbulence is good too for cooling.

No it is not, turbulence inside an HDD creates dead zones (areas with resistance to air movement, not literally dead/zero) which means hot areas inside the HDD, that is a negative benefit. Turbulence also creates more resistance requiring higher power to turn the platters from the motor (not a big factor in He atmosphere).

 

Quote

The resistance R includes everything, except pressure, that affects flow rate. For example, R is greater for a long tube than for a short one. The greater the viscosity of a fluid, the greater the value of R. Turbulence greatly increases R, whereas increasing the diameter of a tube decreases R.

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-osuniversityphysics/chapter/14-7-viscosity-and-turbulence/#:~:text=The resistance R includes everything,of a tube decreases R.

 

There isn't a situation where turbulence is a benefit, not for air through a radiator/heatsink and not through ducting. If you want to mix air then turbulence is good but if you want to move it from one place to another aka thermal transfer then you do not want turbulence.

 

Simply being a less dense gas isn't the only factor in why there is less rotational friction happening, it is a lot of it yes however less power is not why they did it. Why they/we needed Helium was to increase the platter count and to do that there was a need to reduce the "windage" aka turbulence. This is actually the cited reasoning behind it.

 

Also Helium does have higher thermal conductivity than air, around 6 times greater.

 

Quote

The feasibility of using helium (He) inside of hard disk drives (HDD) has long been the holy grail of rotating magnetic storage. And after many decades of research and development, there is virtually no debate that replacing air with helium inside the magnetic storage enclosure improves areal density capability (lower windage-induced vibration with low-density helium), reduces the power required to spin (lower spindle power from lower-density helium), and limits increases in device temperature (higher thermal conductivity of helium).

 

Quote

Also, the switch from 3.5-inch to 2.5-inch form factor mission-critical drives with high RPMs had the similar effect of decreasing interest in helium HDDs. The smaller 2.5-inch form factor disks, sometimes combined with the use of airflow control features (i.e., disk separator plates), had dramatically reduced the airflow-induced turbulence. Clearly, this also delayed the immediate need for helium HDDs.

 

Quote

Furthermore, the use of a higher number of thinner disks is not possible because the windage induces turbulence and makes 7200-RPM tracking impossible at the desired TPIs. The only way to reduce windage in air-filled HDDs is to significantly lower the spindle speed (RPM). However, the largest part of the business-critical market is not willing to accept lower RPMs due to the performance and throughput loss. This means that helium HDD technology is the only viable path forward for delivering higher capacities because it will allow for an increased number of thinner disks.

https://www.seagate.com/files/www-content/product-content/enterprise-hdd-fam/enterprise-capacity-3-5-hdd-10tb/_shared/docs/helium-drive-launch-tp686-1-1602us.pdf

 

I didn't just say stuff without actually knowing the why. Clearly explaining it perfectly may not happen every time or going through all the reasons.  I wasn't really giving my opinion or personal thoughts as to why it might be, I simply listed some the why's given by the manufacturers that researched the technology in to why and how to use Helium in HDD applications.

 

6 hours ago, leclod said:

You don't see radiators with one huge hole in the middle for max airflow.

A radiator with a hole in it isn't "a radiator" and has no interaction with air thus is not relevant in this context. May as well say take the top off the HDD.

 

We don't see flat solid plates as radiators, no air can pass through. What we do see is differences in radiator fins per inch/mm, fin thickness, fin shape and radiator thickness. These all effect turbulence of the air as it passes through the radiator.

 

Also PC cooling manufactures researching designs for fan blades that have less turbulence resulting in higher airflow. We also see vehicle manufacturers researching aerodynamic designs that have lower drag and one cause of drag is turbulence, this is why they are looking at removing side mirrors for cameras as an example. Other examples would be reduced gaps between wheel spokes, vents on the top of wheel wells etc. All sorts of things are done to reduce air turbulence over vehicle body to reduce drag.

 

In a world where everyone else is looking at ways to reduce turbulence I don't know why you would think it has a benefit, at least not in this context anyway.

[leclod]

5 hours ago, leadeater said:

No it is not, turbulence inside an HDD creates dead zones (areas with resistance to air movement, not literally dead/zero) which means hot areas inside the HDD, that is a negative benefit. Turbulence also creates more resistance requiring higher power to turn the platters from the motor (not a big factor in He atmosphere).

Ok, it seems you're right (I didn't go through and check everything out) so I'm sorry.

Thank you for your patience and commitment.

Edited April 8 by leclod