The US Department of Justice accuses Apple of having an illegal monopoly over smartphones

[Silverdogz]

46 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

The last time I recall Anti Trust laws in the US actually working on a major company was in the 1980's when the Ma Bell was broken up. So again I dont really think Apple has much to worry about.

 

I have to disagree here, the last time the DOJ filed something like this was back in 1998 against Microsoft for essentially the exact same thing that Apple is being sued for this time. In that '98 suit, Microsoft was being accused of using its position as the largest OS vendor to block access to the internal systems of the OS by denying other internet browsers. Quite honestly in this case the biggest example of antitrust is the Tile complaint, where Apple's denial for background Bluetooth access killed tile's app on the iPhone, but coincidentally the Apple version of the same product (released 2 years later) doesn't have that problem. That is an example of antitrust practices and something that DOJ can most definitely extract concessions from Apple from. 

[Donut417]

1 minute ago, Silverdogz said:

Microsoft

And what happened? Microsoft remained whole. The process failed. The last time they were "Successful" was with the Ma Bell.

[Silverdogz]

Just now, Donut417 said:

And what happened? Microsoft remained whole. The process failed. The last time they were "Successful" was with the Ma Bell.

Microsoft would have been split if the judge for the trial hadn't gone to the media, that was the only reason that MS was able to escape being split. In the end they were still under a committee review for 10 years that could have imposed even more restrictions.

 

Case: Opinion : U.S. v. Microsoft Corporation (justice.gov)

[Zodiark1593]

On 3/22/2024 at 7:36 AM, Donut417 said:

And? DTE has raised our rates twice. Why? Because the governor got on their ass about extended outages. So now they are fixing the grid, which can’t be done for free. There are ways to reduce electricity usage, maybe look in to some. 

I’ve pretty much cut down what I have control over as much as reasonable. I tend to run pretty hot generally l, so I don’t run the space heater in the cold. So that leaves showers as the biggest energy expenditure from myself, and even then, I’ve greatly cut down on the length of those (not for energy saving reasons, I just don’t feel like staying in the showers for long anymore). And in the summer, my window AC unit uses about 350-400 watt/hrs, though it only gets a couple hours of use before bed. LED lighting throughout the home. Most of my computing is via laptop and phone, so negligible power consumption there.
 

So that probably leaves the roomates here. Given our recent bill of ~$370 for January, I’ll probably have to bring up terms. 

[Donut417]

5 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

So that leaves showers as the biggest energy expenditure from myself, and even then, I’ve greatly cut down on the length of those

Take it you have an electric hot water heater. We have gas. Gas Water heater, gas stove, dryer and furnace. Natural gas is a lot cheaper than electricity. In the case of the stove and water heater can be used without electricity.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Donut417 said:

Take it you have an electric hot water heater. We have gas. Gas Water heater, gas stove, dryer and furnace. Natural gas is a lot cheaper than electricity. In the case of the stove and water heater can be used without electricity.

Was like that here but now it's not or isn't going to be. No new fixed residential CNG is allowed anymore and our CNG extraction is being scaled down so unless you have a connection to your house already then you can't have it and the price is going way up all the time.

 

My parents have gas for cook top, water heating and underfloor heating and the underfloor heating cost is getting insanely out of control. They are going to have to put in heatpump/aircon and stop using the underfloor completely. To change the underfloor unit over to electric is something like $15k btw, heatpump/aircon ~3k.

 

If anyone here really wants to stay on or get gas then they'll have to choose CNG/LPG bottle system, also getting more and more expensive. Cooking with gas is so much better, nothing is as good (no modern induction is not).

[starsmine]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Was like that here but now it's not or isn't going to be. No new fixed residential CNG is allowed anymore and our CNG extraction is being scaled down so unless you have a connection to your house already then you can't have it and the price is going way up all the time.

 

My parents have gas for cook top, water heating and underfloor heating and the underfloor heating cost is getting insanely out of control. They are going to have to put in heatpump/aircon and stop using the underfloor completely. To change the underfloor unit over to electric is something like $15k btw, heatpump/aircon ~3k.

 

If anyone here really wants to stay on or get gas then they'll have to choose CNG/LPG bottle system, also getting more and more expensive. Cooking with gas is so much better, nothing is as good (no modern induction is not).

keep the underfloor for auxiliary heat and get a smaller heat pump. Also surprised to hear the costs are insane, isnt it just hot water from whatever way you want to heat the water? So wouldnt it cost the same as that source?

And converting from natural gas to a heat pump is such a hard sell with how cheap per unit of heat it is. 
even at 250% efficient at 13 cents a Kw/h, the cost per unit of heat is cheaper with the furnace at my parents place. so we are not avoiding heat pumps, it just has no financial incentive. 

[Zodiark1593]

5 hours ago, Donut417 said:

Take it you have an electric hot water heater. We have gas. Gas Water heater, gas stove, dryer and furnace. Natural gas is a lot cheaper than electricity. In the case of the stove and water heater can be used without electricity.

Yeah, everything is electric here. And the stove is legit older than me (30+ years). 

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Cooking with gas is so much better, nothing is as good (no modern induction is not).

At least my cast iron pans help make the electric stove more tolerable (because sheer thermal mass). The frequent heat cycling definitely isn’t great with thinner non-stick pans. 

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, starsmine said:

Also surprised to hear the costs are insane, isnt it just hot water from whatever way you want to heat the water? So wouldnt it cost the same as that source?

No it's a closed system, it's it own thing with it's own water heater and pump. It functions the same as a pc water cooling loop, you don't plumb that in to your house hot water system or cold water 

 

https://www.baxiboilers.com/

 

It's done the way it is to keep it small so you don't need a dedicated room for it with separate boiler, pump and logic control system. it's great so long as you picked the right fuel type and it didn't 10 years later massively spike in cost.

 

It costs a lot because it's a large house and that's quite open and most rooms are used so you can't really just turn the heating off to some of the rooms so every room is heated always if below min set point and not above max set point. Heating hot water for general usage like showers isn't nearly as sensitive to per unit of energy pricing simply because you use so much less of it, $25 vs $30 ($5) over a month for showers isn't as noticeable even if it's 20% more expensive than a different energy source for heating that hot water while $50+ difference is more noticeable.

 

Summer total energy costs (electricity + gas) is around $250-$300 and in winter as high as $650, the only difference is the gas usage for the underfloor heating. A month usage of a heat pump isn't $300+, used many and have one in my house to know.

[Holmes108]

On 3/23/2024 at 6:29 AM, saltycaramel said:

 

1) People in the US: almost everybody uses Apple, blue bubbles are big deal, etc.

 

 

Not even, really. Last I heard it was something like 60/40 for them vs. Android. 

 

I'm not a fan of Apple stuff at all, precisely becuase of the locked down nature. But even still, I don't agree with this lawsuit and think Apple should be able to make a product as they see fit (generally speaking).

[Uttamattamakin]

I agree with this move.  Consider that if you own an Apple computer you need to have an Apple phone or tablet to recover your password.  They act like a monopoly over those who buy into their ecosystem at all.   Then they use their influence to monopolize key applications in various areas.  

For example.  For the longest time there was an app called forflight which pilots would use and it ONLY ran on iPad.  WHY?   Then there is the way Apple more or less ran every other company that tried to forward a new and in some ways better OS out of business.   If it wasn't for Samsung would Android still have decent hardware OR would it basically be a feature phone OS?

[Obioban]

Since RCS keeps coming up, a reminder that Apple announced back in November that RCS is coming to iMessage:

https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/

 

My guess is that RCS bubbles will remain green until such a time as RCS messages can be E2E encrypted-- which is something Apple is working to get added to the standard.

 

The blue green thing is so blown out of proportion. In the original Messages app (which was SMS only), 100% of messages were green. That is why, to this day, the message app icon is a green message bubble.

 

When iMessage was added to Messages, they made iMessages blue to visually indicate which messages are E2E encrypted.

 

So, left untouched by the DOJ, I'd expect RCS to be added, or at least a release date announced at WWDC (June), E2E RCS messages to be blue, and unencrypted RCS messages (which may initially be all of them) to remain green.

[Obioban]

20 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

I agree with this move.  Consider that if you own an Apple computer you need to have an Apple phone or tablet to recover your password.  They act like a monopoly over those who buy into their ecosystem at all.   Then they use their influence to monopolize key applications in various areas.  

For example.  For the longest time there was an app called forflight which pilots would use and it ONLY ran on iPad.  WHY?   Then there is the way Apple more or less ran every other company that tried to forward a new and in some ways better OS out of business.   If it wasn't for Samsung would Android still have decent hardware OR would it basically be a feature phone OS?

Not sure that's a good example of anything-- the developer just didn't find it worthwhile to release the apps on other platforms. That's not something Apple caused.

 

Solidworks can't be purchased on Mac. Is that because Microsoft is exercising monopoly power over it, to keep it a windows exclusive?

[BrandonTech.05]

On 3/21/2024 at 12:20 PM, OddOod said:

Good.
They are a monopoly

That isn't a monopoly. Im not saying apple is right by any means but there are so many other legal grounds to bite them on and this is what is biting them? like c'mon be real right now. 

[jagdtigger]

6 minutes ago, BrandonTech.05 said:

That isn't a monopoly.

Yeah sure /s, try having anything else than an iphone as a company phone.......... (you wont, the company will force that garbage down your throat)

[leadeater]

21 minutes ago, BrandonTech.05 said:

That isn't a monopoly. Im not saying apple is right by any means but there are so many other legal grounds to bite them on and this is what is biting them? like c'mon be real right now. 

Any single company that has a larger control or influence over a market is a legal monopoly, there is no defined % market share for that. What matters is not how they got there, a monopoly is actually legal if it occurred without breaking any anti-trust laws.

 

There are two things that actually matter regarding monopoly laws:

• How it happened
• Market conduct

You can legally become a monopoly and so long as your market conduct is "not a problem" then everything is in the clear, no issues.

 

Android and iOS are monopolies for the smartphone market. Both have to make sure they are not violating anti-trust laws due to that.

[Obioban]

12 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Yeah sure /s, try having anything else than an iphone as a company phone.......... (you wont, the company will force that garbage down your throat)

By that definition, windows is a monopoly-- as I'm forced to use that for work.

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, Obioban said:

By that definition, windows is a monopoly-- as I'm forced to use that for work.

Windows is a monopoly, it's already been case tested as so.

 

Again, monopolies are not illegal.

[wanderingfool2]

25 minutes ago, BrandonTech.05 said:

That isn't a monopoly. Im not saying apple is right by any means but there are so many other legal grounds to bite them on and this is what is biting them? like c'mon be real right now. 

It is an important aspect towards showing there isn't competition.  Just like the DOJ will have to prove the they used their position to attempt to force people to their way [But that will probably be covered by Tim Cooks "buy your mom an iPhone" in response to a reporter saying sharing a picture with her mother produced a grainy MMS message].

 

Actually I'm hoping that during the lawsuit there are emails in regards to this that get released, because I'm sure there have been some internal emails that are glaring of abusing their power to not support other things.

 

2 hours ago, Obioban said:

Since RCS keeps coming up, a reminder that Apple announced back in November that RCS is coming to iMessage:

https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/

 

My guess is that RCS bubbles will remain green until such a time as RCS messages can be E2E encrypted-- which is something Apple is working to get added to the standard.

While it might be coming, it does seem the announcement is out of regulatory pressure from places other than the US...and if they implemented it in Europe, where they have effectively lost anti-trust cases, and not in the US then it would pave a way to claim they are just holding it back to keep userbase.

 

Also while it's not E2EE it still is encrypted; and it should be noted that by using Apple cloud backup they stored the E2EE on their servers without E2EE so IF Apple wanted to, or an attacker that gained access to their servers wanted to they could actually access your E2EE messages if you used cloud backup. [Although this was fixed back in 2022 era iirc].

 

5 minutes ago, Obioban said:

By that definition, windows is a monopoly-- as I'm forced to use that for work.

Uhm, you use that  as though it advances your argument when it really doesn't if you did any basic level searches. *They've been sued they lost, they are a monopoly*

 

Windows pretty much classified as a monopoly, it's why they have to watch what types of actions they take.  If they were to lets say decide to not support Office on Mac's they would get anti-trust against them.  If they tried tying in a competing product they could face an antitrust.

 

It's why they have to tiptoe around some of the stuff they do because they can easily face antitrust lawsuits

[jagdtigger]

11 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Again, monopolies are not illegal.

Yeah sure, that is why specific laws exist against them..... /s

 

 

9 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Windows pretty much classified as a monopoly, it's why they have to watch what types of actions they take. 

Havent noticed that with their popovers and malicious browser take-overs (taking over the data of a different browser without consent  is just that)........

Edited March 25 by jagdtigger

[wanderingfool2]

3 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Yeah sure, that is why specific laws exist against them..... /s

That shows an ignorance of what is the reality.  Being classified as a monopoly simply means that they are subject to new sets of laws regarding how they can act.  They for example have to open up API access to people etc.  It doesn't make them illegal.  Just like how publicly traded companies are legally required to be at a different standard than private companies. [i.e. they have a fiduciary duty to the shareholders]

 

The same applies for a monopoly.  If a company has a monopoly but acts in a way that isn't an abuse of the power they have amassed then they won't be really subject to much.  There will be more regulations to allow in competitors but what they do isn't necessarily illegal

 

8 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Havent noticed that with their popovers and malicious browser take-overs (taking over the data of a different browser without consent  is just that).......

...uhm do you not know history?

 

MS was famously sued over IE...Edge's codebase is basically Chromium.  The vast majority of people I know do not use edge, but use Chrome or Firefox.  Using Edge is not a forced interaction, except to download Chrome/Firefox after initial install.

[Obioban]

15 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

While it might be coming, it does seem the announcement is out of regulatory pressure from places other than the US...and if they implemented it in Europe, where they have effectively lost anti-trust cases, and not in the US then it would pave a way to claim they are just holding it back to keep userbase.

 

Also while it's not E2EE it still is encrypted; and it should be noted that by using Apple cloud backup they stored the E2EE on their servers without E2EE so IF Apple wanted to, or an attacker that gained access to their servers wanted to they could actually access your E2EE messages if you used cloud backup. [Although this was fixed back in 2022 era iirc].

The EU has specifically stated that iMessage is not an issue for them, so doubtful that's the cause.

 

When iCloud backups were viewable by Apple, they never made any claims to the contrary. So, yes, but also... so what? If you were concerned at the time, you could do a local encrypted backup.

[wanderingfool2]

9 minutes ago, Obioban said:

The EU has specifically stated that iMessage is not an issue for them, so doubtful that's the cause.

iMessage is not an issue when it comes to being opened up...but the lack of RCS support was something that was started to getting looked at [not for DMA stuff].  The reason why DMA doesn't cover iMessage and they don't care is because they don't have controlling power within the iMessage scope to be considered a gatekeeper in messaging, but that doesn't mean the control that iMessage gives to Apple by refusing to accept a standard isn't up for regulatory scrutiny [it's important to keep those things distinct].

 

11 minutes ago, Obioban said:

When iCloud backups were viewable by Apple, they never made any claims to the contrary. So, yes, but also... so what? If you were concerned at the time, you could do a local encrypted backup.

Sure...lets just ignore that they advertised it as E2EE.  Lets ignore that they full well knew that most people will not understand that their keys were stored not E2EE on cloud backups.

 

Even on this forum you get lots of people who see "doesn't support E2EE" to mean no encryption used or lack of privacy...and the default assumption that E2EE means their data is safe with only them.

 

Actually honestly the fact that Apple has advertised encryption as a thing over iMessage really is a case that RCS should have been implemented early if they were truly for security [as RCS still has encryption between the servers and clients]

[starsmine]

1 hour ago, Obioban said:

By that definition, windows is a monopoly-- as I'm forced to use that for work.

Windows is a monopoly, but not in the same way as apple is. 
Windows does NOT go around intentionally, and explicitly blocking interoperability with other operating systems (iMessage) or forces people into large costs to develop applications for it. You can make whatever you want on windows and have it interact with any OS you want. 

I don't disagree with apple's walled garden necessarily, but Apple not supporting rich communication service or allow others to use iMesssage is monopolistic behavior and to argue its not is blind to the consequences of this action. (oh no green texts)
Apple could have done either/or, but REFUSE (until they announced RCS 5 months ago because china forced it, but even then are not supporting the full standard)

[wanderingfool2]

16 minutes ago, starsmine said:

Windows is a monopoly, but not in the same way as apple is. 
Windows does NOT go around intentionally, and explicitly blocking interoperability with other operating systems (iMessage) or forces people into large costs to develop applications for it. You can make whatever you want on windows and have it interact with any OS you want. 

Actually the one part on Windows that I sort of get but think they need an alternative is in regards to unsigned drivers.  You can run unsigned drivers, but it's pretty terrible in regards to how you have to do it.  I do get it though in that people writing drivers are very much likely to have the resources though to have it a signed driver  and that drivers exposes a significant risk to the user...but I still do feel that you should be able to easily install it and have it run [even if there are a million prompts when installing it]