The Windows 10 and 11 free trials (I mean upgrades) are no more

[leadeater]

24 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

So by this definition there isn't really a way to obtain a legit W10/11 Pro license without paying a 3-digit amount, and still get an OS with baked-in ads, am I seeing this right? At least for "us" folks who still build computers by themselves and not buy machines with bundled licenses (or simply want a license that can be activated on any machine).

You can turn off all the advertising, plenty of easy guides on how. At least if you buy a retail license rather than OEM you actually have better rights since that license type is transferable and upgradable.

 

Honestly I have no good idea what the ads are like in Windows 10 or Windows 11, I've only ever used Windows Enterprise and guess what that has none of. Some editions of Windows are just better, in every way.

[jagdtigger]

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

removed from OEM systems (that didn't sell or whatever) or are MAK keys under a volume license agreement.

Actually both are fine in the EU:
https://www.forscope.eu/blog/legal-side-of-used-software/

[leadeater]

19 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Actually both are fine in the EU:
https://www.forscope.eu/blog/legal-side-of-used-software/

Actually no, MAK keys being resold is not fine. Only if the owner of them is selling which is not what is happening with those MAK keys. They are being taken by people who have access to their corporate VLSC/Admin Center and know the MAK will never get used since they are using VLK license server.

 

We have thousands of MAK keys, maybe 10 at most activations with those. And nobody would even notice if they got sold and used, so I could make over 150k personally but that would 100% be illegal, they aren't "mine" to sell.

 

And the same goes for OEM keys on unsold computers, no you are not actually authorized to sell them Distributor/MSP company with dead stock that you didn't sell. They are owned by Dell/HP/Lenovo until they are sold to a customer.

 

You can sell YOUR software that you own only, nothing else.

 

And all of that is only of any use to people in the EU/EEA. Which again, most grey market keys are not legitimate sales even in EU since they are not valid ownership transfers from the actual owner of them.

 

If you are buying DVD's in a back alley you know what you are doing, lets not pretend otherwise 

[jagdtigger]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Actually no, MAK keys being resold is not fine.

As per the EU court decision it is. Ppl selling stuff they shouldnt doesnt effect it. Never the less, by law selling SW you own is perfectly legal despite what some SW company wants us to believe.

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

As per the EU court decision it is. Ppl selling stuff they shouldnt doesnt effect it. Never the less, by law selling SW you own is perfectly legal despite what some SW company wants us to believe.

No it isn't. Unless they are sold by the Microsoft license agreement owner, and it's still not covered. Secondly, in bold, your own source, it's damn well right in there. It's not legal, can it be proven? No. So it goes nowhere. But that doesn't change what we actually know is happening. Legal provability aside.

 

Quote

Conditions for the transfer of software ownership

As you can see from the information above, selling used software is legal. However, you should keep in mind that the transfer of ownership still has to meet clearly set conditions.

---

Perpetual products, no subscriptions
The possibility to transfer ownership doesn’t apply to subscriptions as the acquirer is not the owner of the product (software is only rented for a limited time).

---

Fully paid for
The acquirer doesn't become the owner of the software product until he/she fully pays for it.

---

Not in use by the first owner
The first owner doesn't stop being the owner of the software product until he/she uninstalls it and makes it unusable for him/herself.

---

Only within EU and EEA
The conditions for resale differ across countries and the EU can only control the conditions for products that were first sold and are being traded within its market.

 

MAK are subscriptions so struck down on that count. The first owner neither stops using it so struck down on count that too. 

 

And finally, no matter where you are in the world you are legally only allowed to sell something that is yours. This EU ruling does not change that in the UE/EEA at all. You cannot walk in to a shop in the EU, take a software product and sell it yourself without first buying it and being the legal owner, is this not completely obvious?

[jagdtigger]

11 minutes ago, leadeater said:

No it isn't. Unless they are sold by the Microsoft license agreement owner, and it's still not covered.

Sorry but legal hierarchy is rigid, court decisions and laws stand above any civil agreement/contract/etc. Meaning court orders and decisions can aand will override anything bellow them. And this closes this argument.

Edited October 20, 2023 by jagdtigger

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Sorry but legal hierarchy is rigid, court decisions and laws stand above any civil agreement/contract/etc. And this closes this argument.

Yes your law is correct, I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying your wrong, entirely wrong that the transfer of ownership is correctly happening in line with this law.

 

Yes this does close the argument, you are wrong but won't even admit it. "Oh my position was incorrect, oh well, act right" and walk off knowing you weren't. It's fine anyone that can think about ownership rights can figure out it's only legal to sell your own property and license. It's not a difficult concept and literally in your law you posted lol.

 

So don't tell me it is in fact legally allowed to sell MAK keys when they are subscriptions, explicitly not allowed and quoted by me from your source. 

[jagdtigger]

Just now, leadeater said:

Yes your law is correct, I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying your wrong, entirely wrong that the transfer of ownership is correctly happening in line with this law.

Neither of us has sufficient evidence to make that kind of overreaching claims so its moot to argue about it.

[leadeater]

26 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Neither of us has sufficient evidence to make that kind of overreaching claims so its moot to argue about it.

No I absolutely do. MAK keys are acquired though a Microsoft Volume License Agreement, while keys that will allow full activation are actually upgrade rights and require a base OEM or retail license to upgrade from, and become void once the Volume License Agreement is ceased.

 

As per your own law subscription software is not allowed to be resold and I in fact do have the evidence to make this statement, I am correct. And no it's not too bold for me to say that, Microsoft licensing is part of my thing I do as a job, I actually know and get paid to know and was paid to also sell and administer Microsoft licenses in my former employment.

 

MAK keys do end up on those sites and Microsoft can know if they are MAK or not if they are able to obtain the key itself, what they aren't going to do is buy every key on the site to try and prove it. What they have done is void keys that they do become aware of and people's activations have stopped working after a reinstall because their key was voided.

 

Just because you don't know doesn't mean I also do not.

 

Edit:

Also I'm not saying don't buy them, in or out of the EU. Just saying don't pretend it's all above board, it's not. What matters is that here Microsoft has removed the free upgrade and retracted existing upgrades and the only officially recognized way Microsoft can and will talk about is purchasing retail licenses through the Microsoft Store or retailer at full price.

[Dracarris]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

You can turn off all the advertising, plenty of easy guides on how. At least if you buy a retail license rather than OEM you actually have better rights since that license type is transferable and upgradable.

 

Honestly I have no good idea what the ads are like in Windows 10 or Windows 11, I've only ever used Windows Enterprise and guess what that has none of. Some editions of Windows are just better, in every way.

Well that's good for you, but I still find it awfully offending that they include ads in any version of Windows that has been bought for a non-trivial amount of money. Even if it can be turned off, having to look up a guide already goes far too far.

 

NB: are there even legit channels for consumers to buy enterprise editions of Windows? I guess no?

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

Well that's good for you, but I still find it awfully offending that they include ads in any version of Windows that has been bought for a non-trivial amount of money. Even if it can be turned off, having to look up a guide already goes far too far.

People find many different things annoying or offensive. Most people just don't notice them or care, and if it's just pure philosophical objection then that's fine. It's not like people want this stuff or agree it should be there but most just simply don't care that it is when it's not really a problem.

 

Other alternatives have their own philosophical aspects I don't agree with either, those I also don't care enough about to say it makes the product bad and to be avoided.

 

Unless something is actually in the way and preventing me from doing something I generally don't care enough to actually get annoyed or do something about it, like work requiring password changes and not allowing the last 24 even though that's against current security advice, so I just use my DA rights to manually set my password to the same one which resets the password age and everyone is happy, box has been ticked lol.

[darknessblade]

I guess I will keep my old windows 10 Installation stick on its current version.

 

As it shouldn't have the soo called KILLSWITCH build into the installer for old keys.

 

[Thaldor]

Oh boy! Microsoft reviving Windows Black Editions, what a time to be alive.

 

Spoiler

Those who don't know Black Editions used to be modified pirate versions of Windows with creators taking pride for ripping out useless Microsoft garbage from the Windows, tweaking the performance, making the installation better by including newer drivers or even running scripts to fetch the newest drivers from the manufacturers, adding selection of softwares to the installation, custom UI themes most notably ones that were almost identical to Aero but didn't eat resources as the original garbage Aero did and just generally fixing Microsoft's trash and releasing it for free.
Of course you needed to be bit more careful not to get viruses but once you found great one, it was joy to reinstall Windows.

 

[Dracarris]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

People find many different things annoying or offensive. Most people just don't notice them or care, and if it's just pure philosophical objection then that's fine. It's not like people want this stuff or agree it should be there but most just simply don't care that it is when it's not really a problem.

 

Other alternatives have their own philosophical aspects I don't agree with either, those I also don't care enough about to say it makes the product bad and to be avoided.

 

Unless something is actually in the way and preventing me from doing something I generally don't care enough to actually get annoyed or do something about it, like work requiring password changes and not allowing the last 24 even though that's against current security advice, so I just use my DA rights to manually set my password to the same one which resets the password age and everyone is happy, box has been ticked lol.

That's a very.. philosophical take. I just don't see why we accept these practices, ads are already everywhere. And as someone that is used to the clean state Apple's OSes (and the several Linux distros I use) present themself after a fresh install/new device it seems very odd to me.

 

Yes I am aware of ads in the respective app stores, I use them seldom to never.

[LAwLz]

9 hours ago, Dracarris said:

So by this definition there isn't really a way to obtain a legit W10/11 Pro license without paying a 3-digit amount, and still get an OS with baked-in ads, am I seeing this right? At least for "us" folks who still build computers by themselves and not buy machines with bundled licenses (or simply want a license that can be activated on any machine).

Correct. Windows is a ~100 or more software product that includes a ton of ads.

 

 

The fact of the matter is that Windows was never free. It wasn't free while this offer was available, and it isn't free now.

I have always been really annoyed at the people who say "Windows is free" or "it's okay that they have ads in the OS because it is free". The upgrade was free, but the software was not. They might as well have said that Final Cut was free, even though it costs 300 or whatever dollars to buy. But hey, upgrades to it is free so the entire software can be called free, right? 

 

 

 

  

8 hours ago, leadeater said:

You can turn off all the advertising, plenty of easy guides on how. At least if you buy a retail license rather than OEM you actually have better rights since that license type is transferable and upgradable.

 

Honestly I have no good idea what the ads are like in Windows 10 or Windows 11, I've only ever used Windows Enterprise and guess what that has none of. Some editions of Windows are just better, in every way.

I have gotten quite a lot of ads. Not too long ago I started getting notifications for LinkedIn.

 

How many ads you get are based on several things such as:

1) Which version you got. Enterprise probably gets far less than Home and Pro.

2) Which region you are in. Chances are New Zealand has fewer ads than the US for example.

3) How lucky or unlucky you are. Some ads are only rolled out to some people in an A/B kind of way. 

 

 

Another issue I have is that they seem to introduce new ways of pushing ads from time to time. So just because you turn off ads today doesn't mean you won't see any ads after an update, because they might just enable a new way of pushing ads in said update and it will be on by default.

[wanderingfool2]

8 hours ago, leadeater said:

So don't tell me it is in fact legally allowed to sell MAK keys when they are subscriptions

Are they actually subscriptions?  Been a while since I dealt with MS CALS, and other licenses...and I promptly forgot all the inner workings of the licenses   I thought some of the MAKs could be provided under a perpetual license (I seem to recall having a few of those in my VLSC).  Which would mean under the EU stuff, even though MS might want to try calling it a subscription later on it wouldn't necessarily be declared as a subscription.

 

The bit that I think makes selling MAK's completely invalid though in the eyes of the law is that MAK's are tied together with the volume license purchase.  So you wouldn't be allowed to sell any individual MAK, but rather you would need to sell and transfer the volume license to the new account (which obviously the greyware sites clearly don't do as they are selling per computer activation).

 

The purchase of the software activation grants you the rights to install it on a certain amount of computers in your possession, so as a seller one would have to sell it as a whole.  At least that's how I would argue it.  It's akin to buying a "bundled" version on steam, and individual doesn't have the right to sell each game individually

 

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

Unless something is actually in the way and preventing me from doing something I generally don't care enough to actually get annoyed or do something about it, like work requiring password changes and not allowing the last 24 even though that's against current security advice, so I just use my DA rights to manually set my password to the same one which resets the password age and everyone is happy, box has been ticked lol.

lol, from what I've seen of your posts I'm sure you actually do have a good password, but man I worked with someone who used his AD privileges to reset his password each time as well (we only disallowed the previous password, and only forced changes every 60 days)...got so mad when a virus that exploited a zero day landed on a computer and guessed his admin credentials which was only 6 characters long because he was a slow typer.

 

On a note of getting annoyed; notepad now "saves" the previously opened stuff.  I accidently opened 5 csv files that were 50mb in size...notepad hung up; so I force closed and opened it...it "saved" the files so it kept hanging up (it was the first time I used notepad since the update that changed it).  So annoying.

 

 

 

Has anyone actually confirmed if reinstalling will not work anymore?  That will suck if so, since I don't really care to buy another W11 key. (I had purchased W10 and upgraded when W11 came out shortly after)

[ewitte]

16 hours ago, leadeater said:

Those are barely one step above just pirating. While they are legitimate keys the sale of them pretty much always is not. Lots of them are stolen, removed from OEM systems (that didn't sell or whatever) or are MAK keys under a volume license agreement.

 

That's like saying you can buy a new release box office movie for $5, you can absolutely but the buyer and seller aren't pretending it's all legit. 

 

At the very least the Microsoft free upgrade was official, that being taken away does actually matter to some degree. It's not like Microsoft is ever going to direct people to $5 license keys that aren't strictly legal nor illegal.

I'm not sure about the $5 ones.  I think mine was like $15.  Where I get them they are typically not stolen/pirated/MAK.  They were likely sold in different regions where prices are much lower.  The type of places Microsoft either lowers the price or it doesn't get sales.  India, China, etc.

[jagdtigger]

12 hours ago, leadeater said:

No I absolutely do. MAK keys are acquired though a Microsoft Volume License Agreement, while keys that will allow full activation are actually upgrade rights and require a base OEM or retail license to upgrade from, and become void once the Volume License Agreement is ceased.

This is still only based on your word without anything to substantiate it. At this point you are just going in circles so i guess its just better to drop it.....

[starsmine]

On 10/18/2023 at 10:00 PM, TempestCatto said:

They really are just trying to silently promote piracy, aren't they?

No?
how many REAL windows 7 PCs are out there that might upgrade to windows 10/11 and have not yet.

a dozen?

 

This upgrade pathway is really just a vector for piracy and they are shutting off now that all but a dozen licenses have upgraded. 

Also what ads in the OS are yall talking about?
This section on the right for when you use search to search the web?

I guess the default pinned apps in the start menu are ads, but those you just can pin whatever you want and MS wont stop you. 

[Biohazard777]

29 minutes ago, starsmine said:

No?
how many REAL windows 7 PCs are out there that might upgrade to windows 10/11 and have not yet.

a dozen?

 

This upgrade pathway is really just a vector for piracy and they are shutting off now that all but a dozen licenses have upgraded. 

Did you read the original post?

This part:

On 10/19/2023 at 2:32 AM, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

This means if you were to re-install Windows, perform hardware upgrades, or by any means do anything to your device that would trigger Windows to deactivate, you would no longer be able to reactivate Windows as the servers are no longer accepting such keys for Windows 10/11 installations. This also applies if your license is tied to your Microsoft account as even though your profile shows the device is a Windows 10/11 device which you would presume has a digital license for that OS, in reality, Microsoft's activation server still sees it as the original Windows 7/8 license.

 

For those who don't follow me, I have been on a 2-week-long saga with Microsoft Support over this exact issue. A simple BIOS update to fix a vulnerability led me to be condemned with the Activate Windows watermark of shame. The only solution their Technical Support could offer me after the backend folks confirmed this policy change was the issue and had been generating calls from thousands of others worldwide, was to purchase a new Windows 10 or 11 key.

So, say I have a Win8 key and I went through the free upgrade to Win10 and my mobo dies, I swap the mobo and my Win10 is longer activated...
Or more likely my Windows OS decides to kill itself with an update, I personally had to do a clean re-install of Win11 ~2 months ago.

It isn't about how many Win7/8 PCs are out there right now. Anyone who upgraded from Win7/8 to Win10/11 over the past x years can be affected by this.

My thoughts: 

 

40 minutes ago, starsmine said:

Also what ads in the OS are yall talking about?
This section on the right for when you use search to search the web?

I get notifications (bottom right - bell) to try Office 365, to upgrade my OneDrive etc.

Perhaps even more annoying is that with each big update I have to click no - on all the data collection opt-ins and their product promos...
I just can't believe it can't remember my settings from the last time I did that...
I also wonder, do people that allow all that s**t also get to see that screen or is it there just for us that decline all of that?

[Vishera]

On 10/19/2023 at 5:07 AM, captain_to_fire said:

Oh the memories

I never stopped using it 

This is from my Windows 7 VM dedicated to F2P multiplayer games + COD MW3 MP (2011):

 

At least 90% of F2P multiplayer games work on Windows 7 even those that get released now days.

F2P games are more likely to get released with DX11 support rather than DX12.

[Vishera]

5 hours ago, starsmine said:

No?
how many REAL windows 7 PCs are out there that might upgrade to windows 10/11 and have not yet.

a dozen?

 

This upgrade pathway is really just a vector for piracy and they are shutting off now that all but a dozen licenses have upgraded. 

Also what ads in the OS are yall talking about?
This section on the right for when you use search to search the web?

I guess the default pinned apps in the start menu are ads, but those you just can pin whatever you want and MS wont stop you. 

Did you even read the OP?!

It applies to license key reactivations on Windows 10/11 as well.

[starsmine]

4 minutes ago, Vishera said:

Did you even read the OP?!

It applies to license key reactivations on Windows 10/11 as well.

Thats a bug not an intended change

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

1 hour ago, starsmine said:

Thats a bug not an intended change

More like a massive oversight in my opinion. They pressed the big red button without verifying how current users would be affected. 

[leadeater]

8 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

This is still only based on your word without anything to substantiate it. At this point you are just going in circles so i guess its just better to drop it.....

Why, I am right. You just don't want to believe it for whatever reason. I can't help in that situation and there was never any disagreement literally ever that selling used software in the EU/EEA is illegal. I've never said that once. And literally every time this topic comes up you come post the same thing to me and we go through the same thing over again.

 

You go "oh but" then post law, completely irrelevant to the actual issue. Then I have to explain again the issue of the legitimacy over the ownership of the keys on those sites is actually crucial to the legitimacy of the resale of those keys under that law in the EU/EEA, it CANNOT be ignored.

 

I am authoritatively telling you the situation because I actually know, you have two choices: Believe or not believe. You can drop if it you wish, you can even accept this correct knowledge too. Either why it's up too you. Not once ever has then been whether or not it's legal to resell used software because that isn't even the issue with those sites.

 

Those sites have keys sold by them invalidated by Microsoft literally all the time. Keys are purchased with stolen credit cards and when/if a chargeback happens the keys get invalided by Microsoft and the buyer either doesn't know because they are already activated or the site just gives a replacement. Then you have stolen OEM and MAK keys which are illegal to sell on those sites EU/EEA or anywhere else.

 

And all of this is widely know, multiple published articles about is and tons of forum posts from people who have had problems with keys brought on those sites for those reasons. Howtogeek even purchased a license from one of those sites just to test this out, they got a working key and activated Windows then a year later it would no longer re-activate because Microsoft invalided it meaning it was a key subject to any one of the conditions I have brought up: https://www.howtogeek.com/392080/cheap-windows-10-keys-do-they-work/

 

Yes those sites work, yes it's legal to buy from them, are all the keys on them ligiatmely sourced and ownership transfer? No. Do you have to care? Also no. But at least I don't pretend what is happening isn't.

 

Also do you tell everyone this type of line? I don't know, you must not know either so screw it it'll just ignore. Is that what you did through school? Through university if you went? Through work during any training or on the job experience. Why is it that because it's not something that matches your opinion that it must be wrong. Did it ever occur to you once that your opinion may actually be wrong or not fully in line with the reality of the situation and only some/part of it are correct.

 

Why reject knowledge, that seems at bit... not the best choice.