Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[TylerD321]

Just now, YoungBlade said:

Linus has talked a few times about the idea of other companies taking two Ls and turning them into a W. If he had taken his own advice, his response would have been something along the lines of: "I'm really sorry about all of the things Steve brought up. I feel like we've let you all down. I'm working with the team to come up with ways we can make things right with Billet, Pwnage, and the other companies involved. We're going to have a discussion about how we can correct these oversights going forward. Thank you so much, Steve and the LTT community for holding us accountable and always pushing us to be better."

 

The response to that would have likely been very positive.

 

He could then have asked both Steves (privately) if they would like to appear on the next WAN Show, or in an upcoming video, to talk about the challenges of reviewing and ask for their honest feedback on how the LTT can do better in the future. He could have asked his C-Suite to all come on the next WAN Show, or do a video, and talk about processes they're going to be putting in place to catch mistakes going forward. The WAN Show could be an open Q&A with the community, saying that all profits from Merch Messages during the show are going to be going to charity, so he's not profiting off of it even one cent, and saying that he wants to listen and understand why people are upset.

 

The response to that would have likely been very positive.

 

Honestly, all he probably needed to not make this into a bigger L was a response that showed genuine humility and remorse for what happened. Instead, he gave a response that, knowing what we do now about the Billet situation, is misleading at best, and a lie for damage control at worst. I can't see how no response at all would have been worse than that...

I do see your point. Those would've been great responses.

[Nucleosynthesis]

Well, since the thread with the GN response video has been locked, I will repost my comment on the proper thread:

 

 

As a 10-year viewer, I specifically made this account to convey my disappointment in LTT and Linus' response.

 

I was really hoping that the GN video would kindle competition for quality in the hardware review space. Instead, we got a childish response from an entitled millionaire with a victim complex.

 

This is not the Linus from 10 years ago that I really liked. I so hope that he sees the light after a night's sleep. 

 

[Hezkezl]

6 minutes ago, harls said:

He said he didn't contact Linus first because he felt Linus was guilty.  Steve didn't want any evidence to the contrary. 

Everything that Steve mentioned in his video is out there in the public for everybody to see. All of the glaring issues with testing, the asterisk note "corrections", the rushed schedules for meeting arbitrary deadlines that they self-impose, them auctioning off somebody else's property. There's literally nothing that can be done or said to be like "hey, no, we didn't actually do all that stuff over the last 10+ years, and the community of tech nerds definitely doesn't make fun of LMG as a whole because of those issues that they keep repeating"?

 

LMG, and unfortunately Linus by extension because he was the CEO throughout all of that stuff, are guilty of what's shown in the video. Mistakes can happen, and the Billet thing has (that we know of?) only happened once in the 10+ years of operation there. That's a definite unfortunate situation and hopefully it never happens again... but the rest of it? They've had YEARS to correct it and they haven't. That's NOT Steve "wanting evidence to the contrary", that's literally looking at all of the video evidence and seeing that it stands on its own.

[Reclus]

2 minutes ago, Vengeance73 said:

Long time lurker, first time wader here ...

 

One thing about this water block situation which a LOT of people on here seem to be jumping to conclusions about is that Steve came with EVIDENCE ... no, what he came to this with is a STATEMENT from one of the two parties which is in this dispute.  Within his own video Steve even points out that any STATEMENT from LTT from this point should be basically ignored because it will effectively just be a PR massaged piece of cover up.  But who's to say that what Billet labs has put forth is to be measured with any more value or weight?  In all of this, we as the pitchfork carrying public have not seen any actual EVIDENCE as to what occurred between LTT and Billet ... that evidence more than likely would be an actual email thread between the two parties.

 

And to be honest, we're likely NEVER going to see any kind of actual hard proof.  Even if we did how fast would either side of the mob point out that such proof was faked?  What either side REALLY meant in that thread?  That they KNEW what the sender was really thinking what they were feeling?  End of the day no one except for the two involved parties will actually know that.

 

So what are we doing instead?  Foisting all of these issues and problems onto one very large and very easy to target figurehead. 
Does Linus need to take some of the blame in this situation?  From his past hot takes to the quality of that water block video, sure he does need SOME of this heat.  However the amount of ire and pure speculation which is being directed at him?  We have no idea if he was involved in any of the communications with Billet labs.  We have no idea if he was involved in the selection of items for the silent auction.  It just seems, as some have pointed out, that this is merely a lightning rod for a pent up amount of hate to be directed to someone who has managed to have some measure of success.

 

I have issues with some of Steve's points in both videos.  Chief among them is calling on people's experience within the industry as a source of conflicting interests.  How else are you supposed to gain expertise in an industry unless you work for companies IN THE INDUSTRY!  Saying you're turning off monetization on a video does not excuse the fact that you are in the same industry as LTT and therefore right off the bat have some conflicts or your own.  At the same time I'm not going to be an apologist and let the LTT crew off the hook.  Clearly there are calls from within the company to switch the focus and quality of the content and as with most things in life, it's always going to be a work in progress.

 

But honestly people ... put down the pitchforks and torches and try and remember that these are human beings here.  On all sides.  Which means that they're fallible and emotional and likely not deserving of all of the nastiness which is being spewed at them.  I'm talking about Linus, LM staff, Steve AND Billet Labs.  This may be foolhardy on the net, but can't we all just chill the fuck out?

I think you should lie down and rest. You have seen the videos and after it asked: Is this reality? Is any of it real? You need a rest. Trust me Bro.

[throwawayManMode]

Clearly this has gotten too big for Linus to ignore on the WAN show right? If he tries to ignore this the chat is going to ROAST him...

[Thepyrodex]

3 minutes ago, jitteryzeitgeist said:

I haven’t watched them in about a year, after Linus had a pissybaby temper tantrum and berated a Twitch chatter for suggesting AMD GPUs (6000 series on) aren’t that bad now.  Just an absolute child.

 

I’m here because this is where I can express my dissatisfaction with someone whose actions are having a knock-on effect on the entire tech review space with him barely benefitting from it.

"I'm angry about someone I don't even watch anymore!"

 

really?  why do you WANT to be angry?  because you are actively seeking it out if you came here just to anger post.  that's not healthy.

[Legitsu]

here's some journalistic integrity for you

gn states that billet labs was made aware around the 11th

 

while billets own statment here: claims it was the 10th:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15rxni4/our_public_statement_regarding_ltt/?

 

which is it ? given that steves video was posted on a monday as I have said before that one day difference matters 

so what we expected to trust somebody that can't even remember what day it was ?: 

thats how many a court case has been lost 

 

[JesterTechStuff]

16 minutes ago, craigjennings said:

I've been a long time viewer of LTT's video and had to sign up today just to post this. 

 

It's not just Steve at Gamer's Nexus -- many of the community have been frustrated with the mistakes and lack of improvement in quality of testing.  After reading @LinusTech's response, I'm more upset than before.

 

I don't know that you understand value of keeping the trust of your viewers. In business, it's absolutely everything. I work in software, and it's not any single bug that kills software, it's the regressions -- things that used to work, but now don't, and the bugs that keep coming back after being fixed. That kills a company's reputation and the market for their product.  To correct this crisis, you must first understand the size of the issue, and then you have to be ready to take the steps to fix the problem and the customer relationships.  From Linus's response, LMG isn't there yet on either point. 

No Linus, this is not about you being called out for wearing your imperfection on your sleeve, and it's not transparency being warped into a bad thing.  This is actually LMG being held accountable for incorrect data and misinformation. You made serious mistakes. You've done it multiple times. That makes it a pattern. And now you're being held accountable, not just by Steve at Gamer's Nexus but by many here too.  

Hang on -- the way you've phrased this makes it sound like *we're* somehow in the wrong. The burden of proof of your accuracy is on you, not your customers. Also, "haven't you seen how much I've improved" is what a child says when bringing home a D after an F on their last report card. Congratulations on the improvement, but so much more to be done here. 

 

Stop blaming the community's response on the one Billet Labs video. The camel's back is breaking, and it's not due to just that one last straw. It's the sheer weight of the entire pile. 

 

The community's priorities are always going to be accurate quality information on the products you review. If LTT is merely an entertainment channel, we'd appreciate it if you just say so up-front so we can look somewhere else for objective and accurate testing and information.

 

...and we're real people too. Your feelings are hurt? Well frankly, so are ours. That's why some of us in the community raised pitchforks, and we're glad you noticed. Many of us watch your videos for objective info about how to spend what money we can spare on computer gear. We've noticed the mistakes turn into a pattern. No we haven't seen improvement, and yes, we've been looking.

Will things change at LMG? I guess we can test that... with our posts. Will this "pattern of errors and inadequate response, combined with the community call for overall change"  manage to have an impact? Let's see if anyone at LMG actually understands (or wants to learn) the business value of Customer Trust. 

 

-- Craig 
 

This is a solid post outlining the recent issues. It has become a pattern for Linus to complain that the viewers just aren't understanding what he's saying. He hasn't clocked that he may be part of the issue. There's no doubt that there are people who just refuse to listen or understand, but this is not the case anymore. More and more Linus is saying or doing things that don't make sense to the community and are to his detriment. He needs to understand that the problem isn't just the viewers, but it's the language he uses and his inability to fully address or explain certain things. Yes, Linus, you are being transparent and the community is using that transparency to give you constructive criticism. You recently said on a WAN Show that "toxic support" is bad and that the community should be calling you out when you do something dumb. However, in your response to this thread, you have shown that you are not taking that criticism well, you seem to be blaming the community as opposed to addressing their concerns and showing that you will do better. Language like "it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this" and "it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here" reeks of victim mentality. Finally, you said, "If you haven't seen the improvement, frankly I wonder if you're really looking for it..." Really, so it's the community's fault that you're making more mistakes that overshadow the improvements you are making? All of this and you haven't even publicly apologized for auctioning off Billet Labs' sample.

 

I am not a part of any witch hunt or hate train for Linus, I am a long-time viewer and fan that is disappointed that the quality of videos is decreasing and Linus' response was what pushed me over the edge. I watched the initial GN video thinking, "I hope Linus sees this, I bet he will realize the mistakes he has made and respond well to it." That's not what I got.

[Symion]

5 minutes ago, VisibleXela said:

Oh, I'm not defending shit.

 

If Linus actually did say "no, we reached out beforehand, we contacted them 2 weeks before LTX and they ghosted us" then cool, that's actually something. That's two different timelines to disagree with, now we have competing narratives where only one person can be right.

 

That's not what's happening. GN and Billet are openly talking about what the timeline actually is, while Linus tries to weasel his way out of taking responsibility without outright challenging the narrative or positioning an alternative one.

 

The comment I responded to, regarding the "two different timelines?" Yeah, Linus probably wishes there actually were two different timelines, that would be way better for him.

If I misread your post then my bad but given the phrasing I would say it was easy to read what you said as defending Linus' account of the situation.

[Godiwa]

2 minutes ago, WallacEngineering said:

Yo guys take a look at how many people have joined and signed up to the forums just to comment on this specific thread. Look at how many of them were never interested in joining a forum but happily watched Linus and are now extremely disappointed with his actions.

 

If that doesn't tell you there is something seriously wrong going on here, then I don't know what does.

 

Holy s*** guys, wtf is happening right now...?

you can be perfectly happy just watching the videos without hanging out on the forum... check when I made this account? have watched the videos longer then that... look at my post count? yeah... I don't post here much... but this case is BAD... and needs to fixed... because I still like the channel and some of the videos... but I still think what they did is shite... and needs to be fixed...

so of course people sign up to voice their opinion here... you think you are the only one with the right for a voice in this? most of the post outside of a few LTT fanbois actually CARE and want LTT to do well and want them to FIX this F UP...

[Drazil100]

6 minutes ago, bramturismo said:

Are you seriously this naive?

 

Billet wasn't contacted until after GN made the video public.

 

Don't try to tell me you believe LTT would've fixed this if the video wasn't made public.

Honestly it was only 4 days before Steve jumped on it and forced LMG's hand. It's a completely unacceptable response time, but that doesn't mean they weren't already discussing internally what to do about it and having poor company communications.

Overall though whether they would have or wouldn't have is irrelevant. 4 days to respond is entirely too long. This should have been resolved same day.

[ColonelSupremePizza]

3 minutes ago, Leksi T said:

It's tough.  Is kinda why I was more than just hinting that Linus should stop posting last night.  I have little doubt that yesterday he probably lacked info or even that he people around him had enough time to dig into this.  I understand that Linus has a huge amount of faith in his team, and I can understand him wanting to get in front of this and defend himself and his team.  However, I wonder if he was more than just a little panicky yesterday, and in this case, I could have understood him taking some time to prepare something.  I don't mean, like, PR style say alot of words but say nothing.  But, go back to his team, do some digging internally, and then have something solid to say.

 

On the other hand, I know it's GN's style to keep the pressure on, but this new vid... It's very difficult to see this as more than an attack now, despite good points Steve may have raised.  I can only imagine that this type of barrage is only going to make it alot harder for LMG to say anything publicly. At this point if I was leading LMG I'd be very tempted to hire PR writers and turtle up.  Which would destroy LMG, in a few ways.  And it's not good for the space to lose LMG. It doesn't feel like there's any warning shots from GN here. They're straight up hitting them where it hurts, and they're not letting up.

I disagree on it being an attack, although that's how you see it.

 

Linus made a response that was beyond lackluster, showed he refuses to take responsibility, can't understand that he is literally in the wrong despite trying to make it a positive spin, does the whole "woe is me" thing that he's a "real person" like an angsty teen, and didn't address the other issues in the video.

 

GN's video was a response to Linus' statement. That's it. Whether Linus put on his big boy pants and took responsibility like an adult, or threw a tantrum because his internet friend didn't call him before reporting on very real issues that affect consumers, they were going to address it. You view it as an attack because they ripped it apart, as it rightly deserved, but you would likely view it as sucking up to Linus if his actual statement wasn't childish and was worth praising.

 

Unless Linus has a complete meltdown, I doubt we'll see another video on this. Linus should have taken the extremely valid, on point, and factual criticism like a man. He didn't, so we'll see him rant about it on the WAN show like a child, but unless Linus goes nuclear on Steve because his internet friend reported on objective inaccuracies and scummy behavior, I doubt there will be another video.

[ScoggsUK]

12 minutes ago, VisibleXela said:

Ok, how about I ask two questions, then:

• Where in the video does GN state that the block was sold? I see where Steve says it was put up for auction (easily verifiable) and that LMG told Billet it was gone (verifiable by Billet), when does he say the block was sold?
• Would the block not being auctioned off for charity (but instead lost, damaged, or stolen from LMG in that case, since LMG specifically told Billet they didn't have it anymore) absolve Linus or LMG of guilt and/or make them look better?

To be fair, your correct he doesn't say its been sold. But neither can he claim that its been sold at the point. He infers and thus should have reached out.

 

To your second point, I don't really get the point of this. I'm not apportioning blame to any one side. All I've said is some of the orginal GN video is based on facts availible at the time and some of it isn't and would warrant a right of reply. 

[m9x3mos]

1 minute ago, throwawayManMode said:

Clearly this has gotten too big for Linus to ignore on the WAN show right? If he tries to ignore this the chat is going to ROAST him...

That is probably doing to happen regardless of what Linus does at this point sadly.

[harls]

4 minutes ago, Cl0udK1ller said:

Well according to Billet labs, You are wrong.

GN has already covered this and Linus sent Billet labs an email after GN 1st video stating they agree to compensate them for their prototype. 

 

Unless you are going to make the argument that Billet labs are lying but than you would definitely have to prove that.  

 

Quit playing D for someone who screwed over a small business because they couldn't be bothered to pay an employee another $500 to correctly do a review. 

 

 

I never said Linus reached out to Billet before the GN video.  I have seen nowehere that Linus stated he did.  That is my point.  I agree Linus fucked up.  But that doesn't mean he is lying in his response. 

[QChoumont]

2 minutes ago, Vilacom said:

Because they are direct competitors, Objectively a company like Intel would be a fantastic group to review AMD processors.  Who could know more and give more detailed data on a processor than someone who literally has the hundreds of millions/billions in equipment to test these things down to the atom.  But you probably would be extremely skeptical of a video of Intel reviewing anything produced by their direct competitor right? Huge conflict of interest, significant benefits for intel with every person who takes them seriously, etc.  It's the same thing here, GN and LTT review tech and tech companies, they do not review tech reviewers.  That's a massive conflict of interest and any ambiguity, how objective factual information is presents, can have significant effects and intent beyond what a review of a GPU might be.  Something that steve calls out in several cases(Like Jake saying that its probably a pretty good cause cause its ASUS and ASUS is a sponsor for LTX) but doesn't acknowledge his own self interest in portraying things in a poor light, even(his words again) at a subconscious level.  It benefits GN a lot to continue to be considered the more factual data intensive channel and for LTT to continue to be considered the entertainment channel that you dont go to when you want "real data".  Somehow I doubt he's going to take that video down if everything gets better at LTT and the points he's making are no longer relevant.  So whenever someone see that video(and given the traction its getting my guess is the algorithm will continue pushing it for quite some time) you've created something to cause doubt with your direct competitor that will basically exist forever and be served to anyone who is looking to the space because of how the algorithm serves content.  

Fair, I should have included that I did understand that in spite of The Washington Post accurately reporting the inaccuracy or corruption in the Times there would still be a conflict of interest.

In the context of how GamersNexus calling out the failures of LTT their history of accurate reporting and integrity should also be considered which is why the comparison to the Washington Post and Times is more accurate than Pepsi and Coke.

GamersNexus will not remove the video if LTT resolves their issues but have a history of doing follow-ups when the problems have been resolved or if they have not been addressed bringing those issues back up in the follow-ups.

[Hezkezl]

2 minutes ago, Hydra_20 said:

Not really. LTT has been entertainment focused from day 1, their content and Linus has been very clear about that, the labs project is the first time they've shifted away from that. I've never based a purchasing decision on LTT, I go to other more factual and data driven channels for that. I think you're in the minority if you missed that.

You're in the minority, then. A lot of people make purchasing decisions based off of what LTT says about things.

[ayysub]

Since the "GamersNexus responds to Linus’ comments" thread was locked, i will post my comment here: 

 

pretty disappointing response by Linus. maybe its because of parasocial relationships, but i expected more from him. LTT videos had been very helpful to me over the years, so I built them up to be better than what they are. I hope he isn't surrounded by yes-men and can actually take some time and understand what Gamers Nexus said in their videos. 

 

his response is trying to manipulate this audience. we all know the real reason you didn't want to run the retest - you didn't want to spend another $500. LTT is a multi-million dollar company. come on man. im so disappointed. Let alone, selling something that doesn't even belong to you ... oops i mean auctioning. 

 

[LinusTechLies]

27 minutes ago, m9x3mos said:

So he is Judas for pointing out issues that Linus has with his production workflow and questionable ethics decisions?

Not like a member of Linus' team also didn't also try to say they were doing more or better testing that Gamers Nexus.

Jesus what a upside down world where we live in that you get called a Judas for exposing bad business practices that can kill companies and their products. I swear these are the same folks that will tell you a woman asked for it by wearing a short dress.

[dege13]

2 minutes ago, Nucleosynthesis said:

...

This is not the Linus from 10 years ago that I really liked. I so hope that he sees the light after a night's sleep. 

 

I doubt he will be getting a good night's sleep any time soon...

[will0hlep]

Okay, I've watched and read everything I can on this topic. My two cents is this:

The billet labs video and decision Linus made on retesting it makes complete sense to me and I don't really understand the criticism. If it costs $800 and can only cool last generations GPU, then no one should be buying it. The more important take away from that video is that billet labs had a cool idea that could be turn into a good product in future, not that they had a good product now. I will say that I would have liked to see the product tested with a 3090 but only for entertainment purposes as I felt the exact numbers wouldn't have mattered to anyone and I personnally felt it was made clear that this prototype would work well with the 3090.

 

As for accidentally auctioning off the cooler prototype. My family owns and operates a small to medium business with a roughly similar employee count (100-150) to that of LMG. From watching my father run this business for 10+ years, It has become clear to me that no one in a business of that scale can control everything and some miscommunitcation is totally unavoidable. Is it great that LMG has accidentally sold the prototype, no. Is it worth burning them down over, also no. From what I can see LTT has offered to compensate Billet, if they do that I'm happy.

As for increased errors in videos, this seems a valid critism of LTT at this time. I'm not sure it's enough to warrent a thread quite this long but I guess it is good we are talking about it.

Overall, I'd say "can we all calm down a bit"

[Leksi T]

Just now, throwawayManMode said:

Clearly this has gotten too big for Linus to ignore on the WAN show right? If he tries to ignore this the chat is going to ROAST him...

Personally, I hope this doesn't get discussed on the WAN show until after this dies down.  Hopefully it's responded to shorter-term in a more formal fashion like a video.  This is past a couple of dudes talking about things.

[dege13]

2 minutes ago, Legitsu said:

....

gn states that billet labs was made aware around the 11th

 

while billets own statment here: claims it was the 10th:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15rxni4/our_public_statement_regarding_ltt/?

 

which is it ? given that steves video was posted on a monday as I have said before that one day difference matters 

so what we expected to trust somebody that can't even remember what day it was ?: 

thats how many a court case has been lost 

 

 

More on the timeline in the latest GN video.

 

[Gully666uk]

Disappointed with this reply @LinusTech

[Blacksunshine]

I don't hate Linus and LMG for what is happening.  I understand the gravity of the issues, but I think it's something that is repairable and can be put back to where it needs to be.  Not too long ago he made that video where the staff spoke about what they thought of Linus. Many of them said that thy wished more time for properly testing products, so this was a thing before GN pointed it out.  Now that the cat is outta the bag, hopefully Linus and Co. will take that next step to address the issues.  25 Videos a week is a bit much. Even just dropping it down to 15-20 per week would give enough time to add additional tweaks an re-tests.

As for the Billet Labs thing.  I feel Linus is doing what he can to correct the situation (hopefully I am not wrong on that assumption). Being that his content is grand in views and presence, it only makes sense that it would be done right. 

I don't know how I feel about GN putting it all out there in this manner.  I saw it in it's entirety and it came of as a hit piece pointing fingers and shaming more than a "we need to talk" situation. Maybe that's just his nature and never meant for it to come off that way. 

In the end I hope both sides can move passed all of this and grow together knowing each others faults. As well as Billet Labs hopefully not being too affected by it all. The community is there for a reason, would be awesome if they used it more to gain a different view on all of the things that happen rather than just show up when it's convenient.