Is 12GB of VRAM enough for the future?

[johnno23]

2 minutes ago, WallacEngineering said:

Fake frames are just that - they are fake. Upscaling is also fake. There is a reason why reviews do not use DLSS or FSR as a testing standard.

Exactly. Which is why I was laying emphasis upon the developer teams, As many games look totally badass even on my 1080ti before I updated. I now run those same games with a much higher FPS on a 3080 but games that look or perform bad are not the fault of the hardware but the implementation of the software by the developers. I read so often that

they were rushed,

they had a deadline,

the work environment was toxic

management had unrealistic time frames

etc etc etc.

All excuses and no matter how relevant they are to the individuals caught up in such a scenario the bottom line is we pay money for a good gaming experience not for a ton of excuses and promises to patch fix and update over a period of time longer than most people need to to play the game.

[WallacEngineering]

3 minutes ago, johnno23 said:

Exactly. Which is why I was laying emphasis upon the developer teams, As many games look totally badass even on my 1080ti before I updated. I now run those same games with a much higher FPS on a 3080 but games that look or perform bad are not the fault of the hardware but the implementation of the software by the developers...

 

Well, take a look at how extremely complicated game development has gotten...

 

CyberPunk 2077 took nearly a decade to develop, most AAA games with massive companies and billions of dollars behind them still take about 5 years a piece to develop, with Call of Duty being one of the few exceptions because each release is only slightly improved over the previous.

 

The fact of the matter is these days - its nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get it perfect. I mean do you think someone, even an entire team of people - could go through the entire world of CyberPunk and optimize every single detail of every single window on every street or every single possible little detail?

 

Games are just too massive to expect perfection out of them anymore. At some point when development has taken over half a decade and costed millions - you just kinda have to release the game and start making money on it regardless, even if that means releasing an un-polished product.

 

Star Citizen is only just now starting to feel like a nearly finished game, just with only a single system. A huge amount of game mechanics are in place and hell I can even get 100 FPS out in space (finally) but it has taken more than a decade to get here, and of course in this case the game will probably never TRULY be finished, it just has enough in place to FEEL like a true, finished game.

 

Come to think of it, Star Citizen is a lot like 7 Days to Die...

[johnno23]

Kinda yes and no situation in my mind.

Look at the teams behind the stalker series metro series Deus ex series even the dishonoured 1 and 2. Senua 1 I could mention many more but i mention only the games i actually own and have played.

Also games as Spacebourne 2 started out as a 1 man team similar story with the game the infected...the latest update to that are simply stunning.

Too many studios in my humble opinion try to cram to much into what they are doing rather than concentrate on what they can already do well with the tools available.

The last triple A game i purchased was Either Cyber punk or the last  Metro. Since then I have been putting my money where my mouth is and supporting indy devs pretty much exclusively the last couple of years now.

Forgot to mention I also own Star Citizen and 7d2d.

SC approx 500 hours of gameplay so got my monies worth for entertainment out of it and 7d2d I play at least a couple of hours a week as i simply love the game and the building of bases and taking on a horde

[WallacEngineering]

10 minutes ago, johnno23 said:

Too many studios in my humble opinion try to cram to much into what they are doing rather than concentrate on what they can already do well with the tools available.

 

That much is 100% true. Projects are becoming WAY too ambitious lately. Star Citizen and Chris Roberts have shown us just how far that extreme can go... Lets face it - the dude is a ****ing lunatic and completely out of his mind, not to mention way too much of a perfectionist.

 

But at least his vision is completely out of this world and at least now he has shown us that SC can truly be a mind-blowing experience that simply has no rival. Too bad that on a technical level its still basically impossible and will be for at least another few years.

 

7 Days is just an awesome concept. Its just so cool, such a sick concept. "Lets take MineCraft Building but with much more complex building blocks and implement it into a gritty, Zombie survival game. The game is just absolute Gold - its a massive hidden gen that everyone should try.

 

Speaking of hidden gems - if you want to try something vastly more complicated and nerdy than even 7D2D, From The Depths is another completely unique experience. Theres just no other game like it. But I will warm you, it literally takes MONTHS to learn how to play properly. The learning curve is quite literally as steep as a video game could possibly get. Even Kerbal Space Program can't lay a finger on this game's difficulty.

 

But it IS a completely unique experience because you basically build everything yourself like 7D2D, only you even design your own weapons, determine what kind of shells you want to fire (High Explosive, Armor-Piercing, ECT.), You even program the AI in vessels you don't want to control directly. Yes, in From the Depths, YOU create even the NPCs. Its honestly pretty rediculous and the possibilities are quite literally infinite, thats not an exaggeration whatsoever.

[WallacEngineering]

@johnno23

 

Here...

 

This video is 7 years old, the game doesn't even play the same way anymore and doesn't even look the same. The engine was completely overhauled and the game basically completely re-designed from the ground-up since then.

 

However, this is the only video on YouTube that clearly demonstrates just how complicated this game really is. And back during this time there wasn't AI detection to worry about. Now you have to add sensors and cameras to each vessel to detect enemies.

 

This game is pretty much the same thing as designing your own robots from scratch. Thats what it is - its Robot Wars with no size or weight constraints.

 

 

[johnno23]

Excellent...I shall definitely check it out.

[Mark Kaine]

On 5/23/2023 at 7:14 PM, Floresdorf said:

that 12gb of VRAM won't suffice anymore in 5 years

didn't really suffice since 2015 or so, so hard NO lol.

 

If you want to max stuff out you need 16 minimum 24/32 would be much better obviously *right now* so in 5 years? Sure at low res/settings, probably,  maybe  

[Winterlight]

27 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

didn't really suffice since 2015 or so, so hard NO lol.

 

If you want to max stuff out you need 16 minimum 24/32 would be much better obviously *right now* so in 5 years? Sure at low res/settings, probably,  maybe  

Use max settings is stupid. Not worth use anything above High due Ultra, Extreme or what ever else make almost no visual diference but have massive impact FPS 20-50%+ depends from game.

[DontBeSillyWrapYourWilly]

And here i'm playing games on 1440p max settings with 8gb 3070... 

 

Awfully optimized games will always be awfully optimized , so i guess there will never be enough vram for those.

[WallacEngineering]

48 minutes ago, DontBeSillyWrapYourWilly said:

And here i'm playing games on 1440p max settings with 8gb 3070... 

 

Awfully optimized games will always be awfully optimized , so i guess there will never be enough vram for those.

 

This is true, Im glad you still have some games that you play that work for you.

 

But Devs have already announced that they are fed up with 8GB VRAM limitation and aiming for higher usage so basically ur screwed for new games coming out.

 

And it started earlier than most people think too. Your card actually loses out to the 3060 12GB in Doom at 1440p simple because it has 12GB of VRAM.

 

Keep using it while you can but if you want to play modern titles at 1440p then ur gonna have to get rid of that 3070, which sucks because its not even old yet.

[Floresdorf]

17 hours ago, WallacEngineering said:

It will be, but expect it to be like everything else from AMD - slightly behind for less money.

Well, I have no problem with that.

 

17 hours ago, WallacEngineering said:

Besides, ur buying a 7900-XT. You aren't gonna need an FPS booster 99% of the time and when you do, FSR-2 is already good enough to get the job done - its not like it doesn't work.

That's why I decided to go with AMD. I realised that most of the time I'm not gonna use FSR or DLSS.

17 hours ago, WallacEngineering said:

I always say this about frame gen anyways - Your girlfriend can fake her orgasm too, but would you really consider that to be a good thing...?

Bro where did you get that logic

 

17 hours ago, WallacEngineering said:

Fake frames are just that - they are fake. Upscaling is also fake. There is a reason why reviews do not use DLSS or FSR as a testing standard.

I mean, I'd rather have fake frames than no frames. But I get your point.

 

17 hours ago, WallacEngineering said:

Raster horsepower is something AMD has always been extremely good at, so I wouldn't really worry about FSR-3 all that much. Let these companies take a few more generations to perfect these new technologies and just max out your Raster Horsepower for now. Its still the best way to game. RT doesn't look any better than native if you have to render at a lower resolution, drop FPS too low, or have to enable frame gen.

No, I'm not worried about FSR3 being late. I just want it to come one day, so that in 5 years I'm able to play games as if my GPU were new (almost).

[Floresdorf]

@WallacEngineering @johnno23

I some days ago saw a gameplay of 7d2d, of 4 people, and the game looked really cool. They were on day 35, where a massive amount of zombies tries to invade (but they were well-prepared).

That is one game I might consider getting if my friends get it too.

I obtained that Metro game that is free on steam right now, and event though I can't run it on my present hardware, my friend says it's fantastic.

Also, Subnautica is really good. Even though it runs at 15-30 fps all low, 1024*768, I've been having lots of fun. That is also a game that took many years to develop, and the result was awesome.

[Floresdorf]

@WallacEngineering

Looks like this video here was published just right on time

https://youtu.be/GpfP1sizoJ8

[Floresdorf]

https://pcpartpicker.com/user/Floresdorf/saved/#view=mdjvRB

I ended up changing some things on my build, now it is also cheaper.

(Prices are in russian rubles, I've set them myself, so pretend that the $ is a ₽)

And that monitor is only for now, since it's lying around in my house and I don't use it. After that I'll be buying a 2k 144hz one.

[Montana One-Six]

On 5/25/2023 at 8:59 PM, Deadpool2onBlu-Ray said:

It's not ALREADY unfortunately. I run out of VRAM quite often on my 4070ti....

How? What games and res? Haven't had any issues at 4K with 12GB so far.

[Montana One-Six]

14 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

didn't really suffice since 2015 or so, so hard NO lol.

 

If you want to max stuff out you need 16 minimum 24/32 would be much better obviously *right now* so in 5 years? Sure at low res/settings, probably,  maybe  

Been running 4K max settings with 12 GB for a while now without any issues.

 

2015, What? In 2015 the highest you could get was 12GB with the TITAN X and there was literally no game that was even close to using that all up.

[WallacEngineering]

4 hours ago, Floresdorf said:

https://pcpartpicker.com/user/Floresdorf/saved/#view=mdjvRB

I ended up changing some things on my build, now it is also cheaper.

(Prices are in russian rubles, I've set them myself, so pretend that the $ is a ₽)

And that monitor is only for now, since it's lying around in my house and I don't use it. After that I'll be buying a 2k 144hz one.

 

I wouldn't get a reference model AMD Card - they already had recalls for overheating and they are loud and run hot in general.

 

Just get the very cheapest AIB that is decent in your area.

 

6 hours ago, Floresdorf said:

@WallacEngineering @johnno23

I some days ago saw a gameplay of 7d2d, of 4 people, and the game looked really cool. They were on day 35, where a massive amount of zombies tries to invade

 

Trust me, get the game regardless, its fun as hell even solo. You don't need anybody to have a good time with it.

 

Also, maybe we could play together some time

 

And wow, 1024x768 low? You weren't kidding when you said you had a bad GPU were you?

 

You sure that isn't just Intel integrated Graphics? Lol

[Floresdorf]

7 hours ago, WallacEngineering said:

And wow, 1024x768 low? You weren't kidding when you said you had a bad GPU were you?

 

You sure that isn't just Intel integrated Graphics? Lol

That's Intel hd graphics 620

 

7 hours ago, WallacEngineering said:

Also, maybe we could play together some time

Of course!

 

7 hours ago, WallacEngineering said:

I wouldn't get a reference model AMD Card - they already had recalls for overheating and they are loud and run hot in general.

 

Just get the very cheapest AIB that is decent in your area.

Problem is, that is the cheapest AIB in my area, and anything other than these reference cards don't fit inside my case. But there's surely some other card that fits. I might just calculate exactly how much space I will have with the Corsair 4000d airflow and the deepcool lt720 front-mounted.

There's also the problem with availability here. I only saw power color cards (reference and hellhound only).

I also saw that Merc 310 ones.

And some sapphire reference ones, but I saw a seller that imports parts from Microcenter, and they're cheaper. He's got 150+ Reviews, all 5 stars. In the description he says "I can import almost any model you want"

[Floresdorf]

9 hours ago, Montana One-Six said:

Been running 4K max settings with 12 GB for a while now without any issues.

 

2015, What? In 2015 the highest you could get was 12GB with the TITAN X and there was literally no game that was even close to using that all up.

I think that guy got it wrong. 

He thinks I mean RAM you put in the mobo slots, not VRAM.

Even so, that is wrong. 8gb in 2015 was enough for any kind of game.

[WallacEngineering]

11 hours ago, Montana One-Six said:

Been running 4K max settings with 12 GB for a while now without any issues.

 

2015, What? In 2015 the highest you could get was 12GB with the TITAN X and there was literally no game that was even close to using that all up.

 

Theres no way that game is even remotely modern or for some reason its not utilizing the card correctly.

 

Literally just do a google search for how much VRAM is being consumed these days. Ur lucky if 12GB will get you through 1440p Ultra, theres no way its holding up to modern 4K.

[Floresdorf]

@WallacEngineering

I just researched on cards that would fit with 300mm clearance.

I was only able to find reference cards.

But I saw, in PCPartPicker, that many people used that powercolor card I will probably be buying, and that they have no problems at all.

[WallacEngineering]

4 hours ago, Floresdorf said:

@WallacEngineering

I just researched on cards that would fit with 300mm clearance.

I was only able to find reference cards.

But I saw, in PCPartPicker, that many people used that powercolor card I will probably be buying, and that they have no problems at all.

 

Ah I see, well if there are only certain options for Clearance reasons then not much you can do. Just watch YT videos on your specific case and see what other people can fit in there.

[LOST TALE]

Everyone is buying gpus capable of 4k120 yet they play it at 1080p for gimmick settings.

I never thought I'd see this day.

[Montana One-Six]

11 hours ago, WallacEngineering said:

Literally just do a google search for how much VRAM is being consumed these days. Ur lucky if 12GB will get you through 1440p Ultra, theres no way its holding up to modern 4K.

Sure please do some google searches. As someone who plays at 4K with 12 GB I am fully aware of games and how much VRAM they use at 4K. Most games at 4K don't even use 10GB. I have been playing at 4K exclusively for almost 2 years now and have personally yet to see 12GB not being enough. FarCry6 at max settings with the HighRes texture pack at native 4K uses around 10GB which is the highest I have seen any game go so far.

 

There are 4 games I am aware of that have been released so far that use more than 12GB VRAM at 4K. Two of them TLOU and Forspoken I would consider bad ports which apparently also have been somewhat fixed now. The other two Hogwarts Leagcy and SW: Jedi Survivor only get over 12 when used with RT. Both of these are unplayable at 4k imo even with 24GB of VRAM since they run at sub 60FPS even without RT (exception 4090). So there is literally no game that is unplayable at 4K because of 12GB VRAM not being enough.

Hogwarts Leagcy and SW: Jedi Survivor also point towards an issue that will be much more important than the 12GB VRAM limitation which is the issue of lack of performance at 4K. So the general performance of these cards will make games unplayable at 4K rather than the lack of VRAM. Don't fall for the VRAM panic that seems to go around these days.

[WallacEngineering]

1 hour ago, Montana One-Six said:

Sure please do some google searches. As someone who plays at 4K with 12 GB I am fully aware of games and how much VRAM they use at 4K. Most games at 4K don't even use 10GB.

 

Ya, thats most games, but MOST games are old, only a few are brand new.

 

The problem isn't the vast majority of games that have been around for years.

 

The problem is newer games, coming out right now or being developed right now.

 

Its fine being able to play older games, but the vast majority of gamers don't want to play older games that they have already played, they want to enjoy NEW games that are coming out.

 

Check this out, this is Doom Eternal at 4K. Doom isn't even a new game, it came out in 2020:

 

 

Do you see the problem yet?

 

Ya, the RTX 3060 12GB is BEATING the RTX 3070 8GB literally because the VRAM demand has exceeded 8GB and the RTX 3070 cannot handle it properly. The VRAM is dumping into system RAM, drastically reducing FPS as the game begins to stutter.

 

Now a test conducted to see how much VRAM a few games use.

 

Please Note: NONE of these games are the worst VRAM demanding games out there. These are average-ish games. So it gets WORSE than this right now - as in today.

 

 

As you can see, in general - VRAM usage is increasing in a fairly linear way. And 12 GB is already maxed out in the Last of Us, which isn't even the most VRAM demanding game out there right now.

 

As we said much earlier in the comments: Devs have already officially stated that they are aiming for 12-14GB usage in 4K, they are fed up with 8GB limitations, the actual makers of games are actually stating this, right now - meaning if you want to be able to play new games without any issues at 4K, you need a card with 16GB of VRAM now.

 

Getting too close to your VRAM limit is NOT a good thing, you want a bit of overhead. This is because if you max out for even a single second, your GPU will have to offload into System RAM and you will notice a stutter.

 

So while 12GB IS INDEED enough for 4K on most games right now, that does NOT mean it is to be recommended. You can't recommend hardware that is on the very edge of failure, especially as VRAM demand from games is steadily increasing as we speak. You need some headroom, so 16GB is the recommendation now for 1440p Ultra or 4K.