Inexpensive but good quality fans

[Lurking]

2 minutes ago, Dogzilla07 said:

the NF-A12x25 120mm and the NF-A14 140mm are night a day, they couldn't more different in every aspect. Keep an eye on Hwcooling, when they do a NF-A14 how close it ends up to an A12x25

 

NF-A14/A15 have always been just ok, nothing special, similar to others, there's professional tests from 2015 of them losing to Thermalright 140mm fans

Do you have a link or know which Thermalright fans? 

 

Yes, I'm hoping for HWCooling to get to the Noctua NF-A14. 

 

Regardless, any of the fans I consider will be better than my cheap DC-fans  

[Dogzilla07]

5 minutes ago, Lurking said:

Do you have a link or know which Thermalright fans? 

It's the same design on the expreview chinese graph above, the TL-C14 (without the x). the one that has submarine blades. It looks almost the same as NF-A14 and Scythe Kaze 140

 

This was the original one with the insane longevity and quality, new ones are gray-ish:

[Dogzilla07]

@RevGAMhere's the techpowerup one:

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/darkside-gentle-typhoon-1450-black-edition/4.html

[Dogzilla07]

Here's the quasar-zone (that's probably the easiest to make at home:

[Dogzilla07]

And the Expreview one (the rest is a set of big water holders combined together

 

U could jerry-rig one with a few 5 gallon (18.9-20L) Water bottles:

[Lurking]

14 minutes ago, Dogzilla07 said:

It's the same design on the expreview chinese graph above, the TL-C14 (without the x). the one that has submarine blades. It looks almost the same as NF-A14 and Scythe Kaze 140

 

This was the original one with the insane longevity and quality, new ones are gray-ish:
 

 

i came across some TL-C14 tests. But based on the specs the TL-B14 seems a bit better? It has 1dB more, but more pressure and airflow. All measured at full speed, so with PWM control, it could be more silent at same flow through the same obstacles. Again, it is really hard to compare those values. i can't tell if the more thinner blades are better. The TL-B14 is more expensive, but this doesn't have to mean better. 

 

We don't know how they measured noise, but the Noctua provides much more flow at similar dB values (but again, we don't know if they all are measured in 1m)

 

All I really learn in this thread is that I want to get a good airflow case with as few and large as possible fans. The cost of good fans easily exceeds most case cost. 

[Dogzilla07]

13 minutes ago, Lurking said:

The cost of good fans easily exceeds most case cost. 

Arctic P14 RGB or A-RGB are your best bet (with the ring around the blade). Perfect price-to-performance ratio. Just a bit worse than the basic black one

 

Turns out @NorKriswas right all along xD

13 minutes ago, Lurking said:

i came across some TL-C14 tests. But based on the specs the TL-B14 seems a bit better?

The Chinese graph above shows ~5CFM benefit for the new TL-B14 design, but the TL-B14 will sound worse probably (due to motor bearing), and well thinner blades causing noise issues. really depends on your ears and how far the PC is

[RevGAM]

17 minutes ago, Dogzilla07 said:

And the Expreview one (the rest is a set of big water holders combined together

 

U could jerry-rig one with a few 5 gallon (18.9-20L) Water bottles:

Lol, thanks but I finished mine today. $30 cost.  Tested the Arctic P12 PWM PST.  

[NorKris]

7 minutes ago, Dogzilla07 said:

 

 

Turns out @NorKriswas right all along xD

 

huh? about waht O.o 

[RevGAM]

25 minutes ago, NorKris said:

huh? about waht O.o 

About the Arctic P14.

[RevGAM]

2 hours ago, Lurking said:

Read the article I linked above. They have some chapters about their test setup. and yes, that is what you need and can't do it cheaper. 

 

Google for fan curves. Flow changes with pressure. So there isn't one value to determine, you need the whole curve (or a sample of points). 

 

This isn't something you can do at home. Unless you are very patient and very rich. 

Do you mean the Noctua article? I don't recall that the fan video has that info in it...?

[Lurking]

5 minutes ago, RevGAM said:

Do you mean the Noctua article? I don't recall that the fan video has that info in it...?

https://www.hwcooling.net/en/bequiet-silent-wings-pro-4-bl099-a-140mm-sovereign-review/

[RevGAM]

I have to say, looking at those example tunnels, mine is possibly the easiest to make, durable and low-maintenance. It has some drawbacks, of course, but even making it requires only tin snips, a hammer, an awl or similar, long-handled 8" pliers and a flathead screwdriver. It measures 20 cm diameter x 61(ish) cm length. The cap is for 120mm fan. I'm also making one for 140mm fans (just need to do some snipping, tucking and smoothing off the burs). I'll use plastic screen mesh in varying layers and configurations to try to simulate different barriers. I know it's not much to look at, but it's what I could do without lots of tools, a workshop and money. I do sound testing using my Samsung phone and the Sound Meter app from ~15 cm away with the fan blowing into the microphone (I tried turning it the opposite way but it couldn't even register the sound from the quieter fans).

I ended up ordering some fans that use Molex, which I don't have, so I'll have to find a SATA to Molex convertor.

[thrasher_565]

11 hours ago, Dogzilla07 said:

There's no point in measuring static pressure without like a Longwin machine, even then it's just one data point as a part of an equation.

Flow is what u want, through a jerry-rigged tunnel, everyone has pictures of their tunnels, expreview, quasarzone, VSG (techpowerup). hwcooling. Some are more advanced like HWCooling or expreview, some are really bassic and easy to make at home, like the techpowerup one, or the ones Corsair and Phanteks shipped with their fans to reviewers

 

Just basically a plastic tunnel with plastic straws inside, and a mesh, and mounting point infront for a fan and a cut-out of a radiator for instance.

ya but there a reason gn stopped using his win tunal as it still was not accrete data. henc the Longwin machine. everything has been triyd with gn and failed...

when things are too close to each other in the test its hard to realy find out witch is really better... sound test is extremely costly. Longwin could do the test but will they i dont no. end of the day most dont care to that degree...

 

so his only test is the stander case test with 3 fan. and all fans set to i think 37dba. he swapped out the pc testing for coolers and got a heat plate.

[RevGAM]

23 minutes ago, thrasher_565 said:

ya but there a reason gn stopped using his win tunal as it still was not accrete data. henc the Longwin machine. everything has been triyd with gn and failed...

when things are too close to each other in the test its hard to realy find out witch is really better... sound test is extremely costly. Longwin could do the test but will they i dont no. end of the day most dont care to that degree...

 

so his only test is the stander case test with 3 fan. and all fans set to i think 37dba. he swapped out the pc testing for coolers and got a heat plate.

I'm not sure what you mean by "accrete data". Accurate? "Accurate data," in the end, is still subjective in the sense that when you move it from a real situation to a lab you get different results and perceive things differently.

 

Hardware Busters/Cybenetics Lab has used the same Longwin machine and produced results, as well as a sound chamber, and several other expensive machines, several of which are used by major manufacturers in the industry. And they actually know what they're doing, whereas Steve admitted that they didn't understand the LW. Hopefully, they've been trained. Have there been videos released by GN with LW results?

 

Why is sound testing expensive? You need a sound-proofed chamber, a stand for the fan that doesn't vibrate because of harmonics, etc., a sensitive microphone and software. Professional studios have been doing this sort of thing for a very long time now - it's not rocket science. Just because you measure 32dB in the chamber doesn't mean that is what users will THINK they hear because it won't be in a sound-deadening chamber - it'll be in a case, maybe pointed inwards, probably with at least 1 barrier in the way - and ambient noise will alter perception of actual volume, just like humidity, surface temperature and wind alter our perception of temperature.

 

Trying to get lab results, as I mentioned before, is all well and good but it's not always the same as real-world results, which are more varied and messier. After all, what's good for an e-ATX case isn't necessarily good for an iTX case, as I'm sure you know with all those cases.

 

If I had someone who could design and build it, I have already got a design in mind for a cooler testing unit...But so far no luck finding someone.

 

I'm just glad that you, @Dogzilla07and @Lurkingare hanging around and contributing to this discussion that I can learn.

If y'all have any tips about hardware and software I should look at for my testing, please let me know. Please, keep in mind I'm a widower working part-time with 2 teens. I don't expect that my new tech channel is going to make me rich anytime in the next few years, and I won't compromise my standards to become a money whore.

Also, if you can give me advice on how to measure SP with my simple tunnel and barriers, that'd really help! Thanks!

[thrasher_565]

10 minutes ago, RevGAM said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "accrete data". Accurate? "Accurate data," in the end, is still subjective in the sense that when you move it from a real situation to a lab you get different results and perceive things differently.

 

Hardware Busters/Cybenetics Lab has used the same Longwin machine and produced results, as well as a sound chamber, and several other expensive machines, several of which are used by major manufacturers in the industry. And they actually know what they're doing, whereas Steve admitted that they didn't understand the LW. Hopefully, they've been trained. Have there been videos released by GN with LW results?

 

Why is sound testing expensive? You need a sound-proofed chamber, a stand for the fan that doesn't vibrate because of harmonics, etc., a sensitive microphone and software. Professional studios have been doing this sort of thing for a very long time now - it's not rocket science. Just because you measure 32dB in the chamber doesn't mean that is what users will THINK they hear because it won't be in a sound-deadening chamber - it'll be in a case, maybe pointed inwards, probably with at least 1 barrier in the way - and ambient noise will alter perception of actual volume, just like humidity, surface temperature and wind alter our perception of temperature.

 

Trying to get lab results, as I mentioned before, is all well and good but it's not always the same as real-world results, which are more varied and messier. After all, what's good for an e-ATX case isn't necessarily good for an iTX case, as I'm sure you know with all those cases.

 

If I had someone who could design and build it, I have already got a design in mind for a cooler testing unit...But so far no luck finding someone.

 

I'm just glad that you, @Dogzilla07and @Lurkingare hanging around and contributing to this discussion that I can learn.

If y'all have any tips about hardware and software I should look at for my testing, please let me know. Please, keep in mind I'm a widower working part-time with 2 teens. I don't expect that my new tech channel is going to make me rich anytime in the next few years, and I won't compromise my standards to become a money whore.

Also, if you can give me advice on how to measure SP with my simple tunnel and barriers, that'd really help! Thanks!

as far as i no gn as not done anything yet, he has a second channel called gn extras that i think he post updates. soudned like it might be behind a paywall but i dont no..

 

ya the lab test is just the fan it self when you add a case in there, mesh grills and so on you get different data. jsut like your wind tube some one els wind tube will be totally different data. pc case's dont just have one fan in it.

Edited April 8, 2023 by thrasher_565

[RevGAM]

27 minutes ago, thrasher_565 said:

as far as i no gn as not done anything yet, he has a second channel called gn extras that i think he post updates. soudned like it might be behind a paywall but i dont no..

 

ya the lab test is just the fan it self when you add a case in there, mesh grills and so on you get different data. jsut like your wind tube some one els wind tube will be totally different data. pc case's dont just have one fan in it.

So, let me see - GN has had that Longwin for how long now, but no test results have been shared to the public? I guess that I can understand that if they're giving it to the Patrons first, but if they never release it to the public, they might as well not have gotten it.

[thrasher_565]

3 minutes ago, RevGAM said:

So, let me see - GN has had that Longwin for how long now, but no test results have been shared to the public? I guess that I can understand that if they're giving it to the Patrons first, but if they never release it to the public, they might as well not have gotten it.

no idea but he did say something as the end of one of the videos but i dont remember what one probably an lab update. dose not sound like stev but times have changed so anything is posable. all his data has been public up to now. thow when upgrading his lab come at a cost so more ads sponsors and merch has to be sold so i understand. at lest premoting merch is better then saying watch youtube ads...

Edited April 8, 2023 by thrasher_565

[thrasher_565]

this could be an interesting fan

 

https://www.amazon.ca/Silverstone-FHP141-Computer-Cooling-FHP-141-x/dp/B098KRT5ZM/ref=sr_1_1925?crid=8VJU3ET51SVU&keywords=argb&qid=1681146628&rnid=5264023011&s=pc&sprefix=argb%2Caps%2C158&sr=1-1925

[RevGAM]

I'm very frustrated. I was working on doing my testing of the fans I've received when I noticed a spike that wasn't mirrored by a change in the sound of the RPMs. And, later, I noticed another. And, with another fan. Sigh. The spikes were WAY outside of the listed margin of error (4x or so).

So I don't know if the meter is defective and I should ask for a replacement, or if this model is generally not reliable. I have the ProtMex PT6252B Digital Anemometer. There are a small number of negative reviews that complain about the accuracy.

[Lurking]

4 hours ago, RevGAM said:

I'm very frustrated. I was working on doing my testing of the fans I've received when I noticed a spike that wasn't mirrored by a change in the sound of the RPMs. And, later, I noticed another. And, with another fan. Sigh. The spikes were WAY outside of the listed margin of error (4x or so).

So I don't know if the meter is defective and I should ask for a replacement, or if this model is generally not reliable. I have the ProtMex PT6252B Digital Anemometer. There are a small number of negative reviews that complain about the accuracy.

I don't know much about fan testing. But that meter is worthless since it puts a restriction into the flow and influences the flow. You basically will have 100 cfm without meter, and 60 cfm once you put that meter in. You can use it to measure outside windspeed since Wind is infinitely more powerful than a PC fan and won't be influenced by the meter. 

 

To get flowrate you need to traverse the duct (google for specifics....it uses geometric positioning to account for the flow velocity distribution in a duct). Use a hot wire anemometer or similar device with very small cross section 

 

A venturi also is an option and seems to be used in the article I linked. This requires extremely accurate pressure readings.

 

To test fans in any accurate way it takes a lot of expensive equipment and expertise. Look at the GN video where they explain their new equipment and it will take them months, if not years, to master and produce defensible results. 

[RevGAM]

8 hours ago, Lurking said:

I don't know much about fan testing. But that meter is worthless since it puts a restriction into the flow and influences the flow. You basically will have 100 cfm without meter, and 60 cfm once you put that meter in. You can use it to measure outside windspeed since Wind is infinitely more powerful than a PC fan and won't be influenced by the meter. 

It is useless because of the false readings, and the excessive resistance of the fan to spin in very low airflow,  but not terribly if it weren't for the former issue. Since the accuracy sucks, I can't comment on max flow measured, but you have to remember I'm using an open tunnel instead of a cone that forces all of the air through the blades, which can also alter results (both ways have their problems) and certainly isn't consistent with a case's airflow. 

8 hours ago, Lurking said:

To get flowrate you need to traverse the duct (google for specifics....it uses geometric positioning to account for the flow velocity distribution in a duct). Use a hot wire anemometer or similar device with very small cross section 

You're actually referring to static pressure, which uses a manometer, aren't you? Sure sounds similar if not. 

 

8 hours ago, Lurking said:

A venturi also is an option and seems to be used in the article I linked. This requires extremely accurate pressure readings.

The only thing I know about venturi is it's use in certain aquarium filters.   

8 hours ago, Lurking said:

To test fans in any accurate way it takes a lot of expensive equipment and expertise. Look at the GN video where they explain their new equipment and it will take them months, if not years, to master and produce defensible results. 

I don't have an engineering background, nor do I have lots of money, but I am smart, ethical and certain that I can achieve viable results, even if I can't do it the very technical way that HW Cooling does, although I have no plan to test many of the things they do. My purpose is to provide accessible info on a wide range of fans,  starting with what I can afford to do. Eventually, if I can get patrons, I'll add the investigation of other aspects. I already have about 20 fans with more coming, and I'm going to find a better anemometer and get a manometer when I can afford it. 

 

At this time, airflow, basic noise, performance with and without  barriers, RPMs and best position are about all I can afford to do. It'll give people a different viewpoint to add to what's out there. At this time, I can test at least 3 different materials alone and in combination. I could throw in a t-shirt for fun but testing one fan is already time-consuming enough.

 

I can certainly understand why you are so enamored of HWC's approach. Do they do videos?

[RevGAM]

On 4/12/2023 at 8:42 AM, Lurking said:

Use a hot wire anemometer or similar device with very small cross section 

That's a great idea! Unfortunately, it only works well if you can control the temperature and humidity, which I can't, so I need to get a Pitot anemometer+manometer, which will do everything I want. I've found a small number (e.g. Reed Instruments R3001, Extech HD350), which are generally cheaper at manufacturer websites and eBay than on Amazon, but they still run about $500. For something I've only spent money on so far, that may be more than I can justify without financial support. Oh well.

[Lurking]

7 minutes ago, RevGAM said:

That's a great idea! Unfortunately, it only works well if you can control the temperature and humidity, which I can't, so I need to get a Pitot anemometer+manometer, which will do everything I want. I've found a small number (e.g. Reed Instruments R3001, Extech HD350), which are generally cheaper at manufacturer websites and eBay than on Amazon, but they still run about $500. For something I've only spent money on so far, that may be more than I can justify without financial support. Oh well.

No, it has it's own heater and measures the dT. Based on temperature, it derives the velocity. Faster air will cool the heated element more etc.

 

You car air flowmeter most likely uses a hot wire anemometer. They are very common and accurate (well, if it is a good manufacturer). You car can measure airflow in deep Winter ans Arizona summer.

[RevGAM]

4 minutes ago, Lurking said:

No, it has it's own heater and measures the dT. Based on temperature, it derives the velocity. Faster air will cool the heated element more etc.

 

You car air flowmeter most likely uses a hot wire anemometer. They are very common and accurate (well, if it is a good manufacturer). You car can measure airflow in deep Winter ans Arizona summer.

Hmmm...The article I read on one manufacturer's site (Renkeer) said that they can be adversely impacted by temperature and humidity variation.

 

I also found an anemometer from Testo that uses a TINY propeller to measure. I think it'd probably be the best bet for testing fan airspeed and flow.