New EU rules for making batteries easier to remove and replace

[Dracarris]

11 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Please. Try to get your device manufacturer to send you "Just the battery". They will not. You've missed the point.

Quite some do, now including Apple (no, you are not required to buy or borrow any tools from them). Apart from that there are trusted third-party stores like ifixit.

[vertigo220]

15 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Please. Try to get your device manufacturer to send you "Just the battery". They will not. You've missed the point.

Keep in mind, too, that we live in an extremely litigious society for at least the past few decades, which has caused companies to do or not do things based on fear of lawsuits. If a manufacturer sends you a new battery and your devices is fried or explodes because of you doing something wrong replacing it, they're potentially looking at being sued or, at the very least, bad publicity. I'm not excusing it, just being realistic. So part of the solution here may be a change in laws regarding manufacturer liability in the case a user opens their device. Disclaimer: IANAL and so I could be wrong about this, but it's my understanding of things.

[Kisai]

12 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

Quite some do, now including Apple (no, you are not required to buy or borrow any tools from them). Apart from that there are trusted third-party stores like ifixit.

Again.

 

Go and try to get "JUST THE BATTERY". Most manufacturers will NOT let you, joe-anyone off the street buy just the battery to the device, be that to fix it yourself or to take somewhere to be fixed. They will only "rent" parts to authorized repair shops, and if they fail to return it, they will be charged for both the replacement and the one they didn't send back.

 

Dell will sell you the batteries for some of the laptop models. Asus will not. Most phone manufacturers will not. Dell makes a point of asking if you want to repair it yourself or send a tech out. Nobody else does that. And those techs they send out? They don't work for Dell, they are authorized repair shops that have dispatchable staff.

 

Here is the exact response I got from ASUS when trying to get "just the battery"

As their only authorized repair shop was in bloody Toronto I wanted to get the battery myself. They would not send one to me, so I had to order a third-party manufactured battery. This laptop was still under warranty, but I was not the original purchaser. So the very last thing I wanted was to send it to Asus and then they send it back to Taiwan for some reason.

 

That's my point. These companies do NOT want to standardize on anything, and the only source for their proprietary batteries is themselves, or some company making knock-offs. You want new battery? You buy new device. That is what they want.

 

That is the point of these rules being worked on. So that is no longer the case, and to apply to a broad amount of device, industrial and vehicle categories. 

 

There is no reason why a company can not sell the customer "Just the battery" except by their own policy of not doing so. Apple had to be strong-armed into doing that (November 2021), and no doubt other manufactures may have to follow suit or they will suffer the same PR backlash.

 

Remember this?

https://www.ifixit.com/News/32343/apple-is-locking-batteries-to-iphones-now

 

 

 

[Dracarris]

52 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Go and try to get "JUST THE BATTERY". Most manufacturers will NOT let you, joe-anyone off the street buy just the battery to the device, be that to fix it yourself or to take somewhere to be fixed. They will only "rent" parts to authorized repair shops, and if they fail to return it, they will be charged for both the replacement and the one they didn't send back.

You brought up some examples of companies that will not sell you JUST THE BATTERY (tm), and I can come up with some examples of companies that will send you JUST THE BATTERY (tm). AFAIK Samsung for example sells you JUST THE BATTERY for quite some years already, Apple is another example and those two together already cover a buttload of smartphones out there.

52 minutes ago, Kisai said:

There is no reason why a company can not sell the customer "Just the battery" except by their own policy of not doing so. Apple had to be strong-armed into doing that (November 2021), and no doubt other manufactures may have to follow suit or they will suffer the same PR backlash.

Not really, their self-repair program was not forced by anyone, although some people on this forum really really like to believe that.

52 minutes ago, Kisai said:

You want new battery? You buy new device. That is what they want.

Quite a lot of sources and possibilities for battery replacements out there for that to be true.

52 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Dell will sell you the batteries for some of the laptop models. Asus will not. Most phone manufacturers will not. Dell makes a point of asking if you want to repair it yourself or send a tech out. Nobody else does that. And those techs they send out? They don't work for Dell, they are authorized repair shops that have dispatchable staff.

All those exceptions you listed plus the sources I named already make your claim of "most manufacturers won't send you JUST THE BATTERY (tm)" pretty weak.

 

I also don't see what's exactly wrong abotu sourcing from trusted third-party sources like ifixit.

[vertigo220]

3 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

You brought up some examples of companies that will not sell you JUST THE BATTERY (tm), and I can come up with some examples of companies that will send you JUST THE BATTERY (tm). AFAIK Samsung for example sells you JUST THE BATTERY for quite some years already, Apple is another example and those two together already cover a buttload of smartphones out there.

The point is they should be required to sell you the battery, or any other component for that matter. Just because some companies, even if they are major ones that make up the majority of sales between them, do, that doesn't negate that many companies don't, and those are the problem. If a company already does this, they're not a part of the problem and therefore shouldn't be part of the discussion aside from pointing to them for how it should be done, but not to say there's no problem because they do the right thing.

 

5 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

Not really, their self-repair program was not forced by anyone, although some people on this forum really really like to believe that.

I admit I only loosely followed all of this when it was happening, largely because I don't use or really care about Apple products, but my understanding was that they weren't "forced" in the sense of a law being passed requiring it, but they were "forced" because of pressure by the FTC and activists, and they didn't want to get wrapped up in a legal battle that would have wasted time and money and caused negative PR, and decided to just get ahead of it. So just depends on your definition of the word forced, but I'd say its use applies in this case.

[mr moose]

10 hours ago, Dracarris said:

This has always been the worst and blatantly wrong counter-argument in this whole discussion.

Someone missed the point.

10 hours ago, Dracarris said:

IP ratings are not for intentionally swimming with your phone on a daily basis, they are there in order to prevent one of the most common type of damage, liquid damage, as I and others have explained countless times on this forum.

"I don't see no use in this feature, so it's stupid and nobody needs it"

Someone missed the joke.

 

 

[graograman]

Plugnplay phone batteries are obviously nonsense and I don't think most in favour of this law actually want to go back to that. The real issue is replacement batteries not being available, having to fully disassemble the device just to swap the battery and then getting locked out by software.

[jagdtigger]

Just now, graograman said:

Plugnplay phone batteries are obviously nonsense

Why? Because you said so? Please dont make me laugh, it is very easy and very much makes sense to do it so manufacturers cant pull a BS move like redesigning their batteries every 2 years.....

[graograman]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

Why? Because you said so? Please dont make me laugh, it is very easy and very much makes sense to do it so manufacturers cant pull a BS move like redesigning their batteries every 2 years.....

One reason is that battery tech moves very fast. What's the point of having a standard battery when it needs gen1, gen2, gen5, gen7.2, gen12.33 supercapacity and so on just to keep up. That's already a growing issue with USB except those are cheap and can't explode when you cross them.

I also prefer the phone manufacturer being directly responsible for their battery if it blows up instead of shifting blame.
 

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, graograman said:

One reason is that battery tech moves very fast.

Ah yes because we aint stuck on Li-Ion for a decade now... /s

 

1 hour ago, graograman said:

What's the point of having a standard battery when it needs gen1, gen2, gen5, gen7.2, gen12.33 supercapacity and so on just to keep up.

Because battery management isnt a thing and there is no IC in existence that could make it possible to render the battery tech irrelevant for the rest of the phone... /s

Do you have any actual arguments or you are just hell-bent on protecting corps and their shitty practices?

[mr moose]

22 hours ago, graograman said:

One reason is that battery tech moves very fast. What's the point of having a standard battery when it needs gen1, gen2, gen5, gen7.2, gen12.33 supercapacity and so on just to keep up. That's already a growing issue with USB except those are cheap and can't explode when you cross them.

I also prefer the phone manufacturer being directly responsible for their battery if it blows up instead of shifting blame.
 

What do you mean by "standard battery"?    Batteries do not have generations as you put it,  a replaceable cartridge type battery is just as viable today as any glued in battery.  Only marketing spin from apple and Samsung will shave you believe otherwise. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kisai]

23 hours ago, graograman said:

One reason is that battery tech moves very fast. What's the point of having a standard battery when it needs gen1, gen2, gen5, gen7.2, gen12.33 supercapacity and so on just to keep up. That's already a growing issue with USB except those are cheap and can't explode when you cross them.

I also prefer the phone manufacturer being directly responsible for their battery if it blows up instead of shifting blame.
 

Have you never seen "higher capacity" batteries, like the ones that go into video cameras? They just stick out the back further, or replace the entire back of the PDA on PDA's that had them.

 

It's like it's been said before, a "Standard" can, and should exist. There is no excuse for manufacturers to make unique batteries for their individual devices, let alone the same device sold to different markets.

 

Hell the only reason there are "different versions" of hardware for different markets was because chargers never used to be consistent each other, even though the device itself is identical other than radio parts. By taking the charger out of the box and selling it separate, that means they can produce the same model device for all markets. So why not do that with the battery as well?

 

Come out with a standard 8mm 3200Mah thick battery that fits all models of smartphone, and larger smartphones can take a taller battery, or fit the standard one for less capacity.

 

https://www.iphoneincanada.ca/news/new-apple-magsafe-battery-pack-pics/

As it is, this is just stupid at multiple levels. So Apple was unwilling to put the USB-C port on the phone, but put it on the battery pack. Charging one battery with another, wirelessly is just extremely inefficient and we should not be doing this as a matter of practical usage. That should be reserved for edge-cases where people need to be out on the field for a week, and no amount of replacing the battery will help.

 

 

[vertigo220]

4 hours ago, Kisai said:

https://www.iphoneincanada.ca/news/new-apple-magsafe-battery-pack-pics/

As it is, this is just stupid at multiple levels. So Apple was unwilling to put the USB-C port on the phone, but put it on the battery pack. Charging one battery with another, wirelessly is just extremely inefficient and we should not be doing this as a matter of practical usage. That should be reserved for edge-cases where people need to be out on the field for a week, and no amount of replacing the battery will help.

I'm not excusing them not putting it on the phone, as it seems like they're just being spiteful, but there are a couple advantages to putting it on the battery: it allows the battery to be charged separately while the phone is in use or in your pocket and if the port wears out, you just replace the battery, which likely is getting worn by that point anyway, and don't have to replace or repair the phone. If they just put metal contacts on the back of the phone and on the battery, like with the Moto Z Play, to allow direct charging, this would be much better.

[Sauron]

Finally. Now, to mandate expandable storage...

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, vertigo220 said:

I'm not excusing them not putting it on the phone, as it seems like they're just being spiteful, but there are a couple advantages to putting it on the battery: it allows the battery to be charged separately while the phone is in use or in your pocket and if the port wears out, you just replace the battery, which likely is getting worn by that point anyway, and don't have to replace or repair the phone. If they just put metal contacts on the back of the phone and on the battery, like with the Moto Z Play, to allow direct charging, this would be much better.

 

My point there was that if both devices had USB-C on them, the phone could have directly used the battery instead of losing 30% of it's energy in doing this.

 

My mistake apparently the battery uses the lightning connector, it's just not visible on like any screenshot on Apple's site.

https://9to5mac.com/2021/07/20/first-impressions-apples-magsafe-battery-pack-isnt-perfect-but-youll-probably-still-want-to-get-one/

 

Quote

If you charge your iPhone using an iPad Air or iPad Pro, keep in mind that you cannot charge it when the MagSafe battery pack is connected. You can charge them separately, but not together.

 

At any rate, doesn't change the scenario. I think using "wireless" charging is a stupid idea and runs counter to any "green" message we're being given. Just like Apple's spiteful non-standard use of the lightning cable, despite it being obsolete.

https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/product/MJWY3AM/A/magsafe-battery-pack

Quote

The MagSafe Battery Pack can charge even faster when coupled with a 27W or higher charger, like those that ship with MacBook. And when you’re in need of a wireless charger, just plug in a Lightning cable for up to 15W of wireless charging.

 

Don't get me wrong, I feel this type of "battery pack" has some utility if the iphone is primarily used as a camera out on the field, but this is the wrong application for it. Being able to plug the phone via type-C PD so it can just run off the battery without depleting it's own first would have made the most sense. Even some kind of standard "PD contact" standard would be better than this.

 

[vertigo220]

4 minutes ago, Kisai said:

My point there was that if both devices had USB-C on them, the phone could have directly used the battery instead of losing 30% of it's energy in doing this.

I wasn't disagreeing, just simply saying that regardless of the port on the phone, having a battery pack like this with a port on it is actually a neat idea, just could be better. But yes, even if the battery's port is USB-C, that doesn't mean the phone's shouldn't also be.

 

I actually think a lot of the problems brought up in this thread could be dealt with by using an external battery. Make the device very thin, with just a small battery to keep it powered while changing out the external battery, and have the main battery be attached externally and connected electrically via contacts like on the Moto Z Play. Then it could be waterproofed and allow for extremely easy battery swaps, whether due to a dying battery or even just to carry a few with you, e.g. for camping or hiking. I really liked the premise of the Z Play, and while that wasn't one of the main reasons I bought it, I was originally planning on buying the external battery pack, until I found the battery life was so good I didn't need it 99% of the time. I wish other manufacturers would have picked up on the idea.

 

Also, as for devices being so thin they're fragile, I definitely agree, but my dream device is a phone that can be unfolded or unrolled to tablet size, has been ever since the movie "The One" in 2001. And with a device that flexible at least you wouldn't have to worry about that. But a device does need to be thick enough to grip easily, and I liked the curved back of the Moto X Pure for this as well, not to mention it was rubberized with grooves for even more grip.