ASUS "Aggressively" Reducing Graphics Card Prices Across All SKU's

[Moonzy]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

And again, correlation does not imply causation.

Can I just say that GPU mining does indeed affect pricing? It is one of the factor after all

 

Imagine a scenario where there's only 100 GPU available in the world and the "normal" consumers are buying 100 GPU

Then mining came along and asked for 10 GPU, making the demand exceed the supply, so the price increases.

 

Is it fair to pin the blame solely on mining, though? Since they're only 10% of the demand in my example.

 

I think the discussion is better focused on how much mining affects the price than if it affects the price, because it does affect the price, it is one of the contributing factors after all, I hope we can agree on this at least

[LAwLz]

10 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

Can I just say that GPU mining does indeed affect pricing? It is one of the factor after all

Oh yeah, absolutely.

I have repeatedly said that all throughout this thread as well.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

I think the discussion is better focused on how much mining affects the price than if it affects the price, because it does affect the price, it is one of the contributing factors after all, I hope we can agree on this at least

I have multiple times tried to steer the conversation in that direction, but those parts gets ignored because I feel like people would rather circle jerk and try to score Internet points by arguing semantics, than to actually have a serious conversation based on evidence and logic.

 

 

For example:

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Let me ask you this since you haven't given a clear indication of your position yet.

How much of the blame do you think are on crypto miners for the current shortages? If I were to cast a magic spell on the world, causing all dedicated mining GPUs to vanish into thin air and everyone on the entire planet forgot everything about cryptocurrencies, what effect would that have on the world?

 

My answer is this:

Emission would be reduced by around 0.125%, and there would be roughly 10% more GPUs on the market, which might translate to 10% lower prices.

That's it. That is my position on this whole debate. What do you think?

 

No answer.

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

9 hours ago, LAwLz said:

My answer is this:

Emission would be reduced by around 0.125%, and there would be roughly 10% more GPUs on the market, which might translate to 10% lower prices.

My answer: Without blockchain technology:

• Global emission would be reduced very slightly between 0.1% to 1%
• The maximum GPU price we would have seen would have been 150% (not 400%)
• Kazakistan and other blockchain heavy nations would not have had rolling blackouts
• GPU Availability would have been low only for low MSRP model. High MSRP GPU model would have had the same availability CPU had (scarce but obtainable even during the thick of the pandemics)
• The market of frauds would not have been disrupted (for the worse)
• Coal would not have received a breath of new life and would be closer to being phased out for good

I point the fingers to the absurd 400% MSRP GPU pricing SOLELY on blockchain because:

• Crypto miners are the only ones that would pay a GPU 5X its MSRP at scales. Professionals (eg bankers) who can justify such prices buy much lower volumes and only a small percentage of gamers would pay 5X for high fidelity gaming. 5X prices are ONLY due to crypto mining.
• ALL peaks in GPU prices since 2017 happened at the same time as peaks in crypto prices. 100% correlation there.
• Correlation between ETH and GPU prices is >90% for months on end, which I consider an extremely strong signal that doesn't even require deeper digging to be unhearted from the data.
• When crypto mining is profitable, they'll buy up equipment until either they ran out of electrical power and/or manufacturer runs out of hardware to sell. Crypto miners will ALWAYS cause scarcity when mining is profitable, no matter how much power and silicon our civilization produces, they'll buy it until scarcity drives price up enough to be unprofitable.
• When crypto is unprofitable, other factors, like pandemic supply chain disruption do become more important factor. When crypto is profitable, crypto becomes the only factor able to push prices up to such a ridiculous degree.
• Manufacturers like selling to miners because it's simpler to deliver and they don't even need things like boxes and will pay wathever to jump in front of the queue and get their operation up and running asap.

That said, We laid out our arguments. I clearly believe blockchain is the primary culprit, by a large margin, you believe blockchain is a only small factor. I agree that we disagree.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

• Crypto miners are the only ones that would pay a GPU 5X its MSRP at scales. Professionals (eg bankers) who can justify such prices buy much lower volumes and only a small percentage of gamers would pay 5X for high fidelity gaming. 5X prices are ONLY due to crypto mining.

This is a massive assumptions that you have no evidence for.

 

1 hour ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

• ALL peaks in GPU prices since 2017 happened at the same time as peaks in crypto prices. 100% correlation there.

Correlation does not imply causation, and even if they were linked we should not have seen anti-correlation or a lack of correlation for such massive periods of time.

It's just confirmation bias on a false premise (that correlation implies causation).

 

1 hour ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

• Correlation between ETH and GPU prices is >90% for months on end, which I consider an extremely strong signal that doesn't even require deeper digging to be unhearted from the data.

And sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it's anti-correlation. Do you understand what confirmation bias is? Because you are a doing it right now. You focus on the few times it aligns with your predetermined conclusion, and every time it does not align you brush it off. 

But even if there was a clear correlation, it does not imply causation. Do you understand why correlation does not imply causation? Do you agree with the sentence "correlation does not imply causation"?

 

1 hour ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

• When crypto mining is profitable, they'll buy up equipment until either they ran out of electrical power and/or manufacturer runs out of hardware to sell. Crypto miners will ALWAYS cause scarcity when mining is profitable, no matter how much power and silicon our civilization produces, they'll buy it until scarcity drives price up enough to be unprofitable.

I understand your point, but you are being hyperbolic or not realizing that there are other limiting factors to mining operations than graphics cards. 

Miners do not have unlimited power sources. That's why some have moved to old power plants. That's not something that can be done an unlimited amount of time.

Miners do not have unlimited space. I am not a miner, but if I were given 1000 GPUs I would not be able to use them all. I would not have space for it. Same goes for most people.

Miners do not have an unlimited investment fund. Even if we had an unlimited supply of graphics cards you would need an unlimited amount of money to buy them all, and that simply do not exist.

Miners are motivated by profits, but that also means they are taking risk into consideration. Generally, businesses that operate large mining farms don't want to risk losing money. Even if we had an unlimited supply of graphics cards, they would most likely not just blow every cent they own on graphics cards, because that would mean crypto could crash before they had recouped their investment. The smart thing to do, which I believe most serious miners do, is buy some cards, let them recoup the investment, and then buy more. That way you reduce the risk.

 

The whole "crypto miners will always buy cards" is yet another assumption that is not based on any facts or even logic.

 

 

1 hour ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

• When crypto is unprofitable, other factors, like pandemic supply chain disruption do become more important factor. When crypto is profitable, crypto becomes the only factor able to push prices up to such a ridiculous degree.

This just sounds like more handwaving to justify confirmation bias.

"Oh, my world view does not align with the facts? Then I guess there is another explanation, but only for this particular instance so I am not wrong!".

Do you not realize how ridiculous it sounds to say that the pandemic and war does not affect GPU pricing at all for like 2 or 3 separate months out of like 24? If something is a factor for 22 months, what makes you think those very important things suddenly don't matter just because crypto becomes popular?

How do you explain the other shortages which have happened at the same time as GPU shortages, such as network switches and cars? Are you going to blame miners for those as well, or are you going to do handwaving and say that "oh, the pandemic totally affects those products, but for some reason I don't believe the pandemic affects GPUs, only miners are to blame for that, these 2 specific months out of 24"?

 

1 hour ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

• Manufacturers like selling to miners because it's simpler to deliver and they don't even need things like boxes and will pay wathever to jump in front of the queue and get their operation up and running asap.

Oh look, the same link I used earlier when discussing how little impact miners have. Glad to see you use proper sources for once.

Did you notice how it also says they estimate that around 25% of all graphics cards are sold to miners, bots and scalpers? So 75% of sales are still to average users who just play games and the likes, and miners are only a part of that 25%? If I had to guess, and this is me speculating, I would say that miners might be as big of a market as bot sales and scalping. That would put miners at 12% of the sales of graphics cards.

I don't really see why you think that 12% of the sales should translate to a supposed 400% increase in price.

 

 

By the way, graphics cards are cheaper than ever right now, and yet Ethereum seems to be on its way to another peak. So I would like for you to stop saying "every time Ethereum peaks, so do graphics card prices", because we are seeing the opposite right now.

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

38 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

you are being hyperbolic

It's not an hyperbole.

• Energy and GPUs can be bought for dollars
• Energy and GPUs can print dollars

That's called positive feedback loop. As soon as the dollars printed are more than the dollars needed to buy the printer, players will buy printers until the demand/supply pushes their price out of profitability. It happened five times. I make an easy prediction. The next crypto price spike will coincide with the next GPU price spike for the sixth time since 2017.

 

38 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Sometimes it's anti-correlation

I just had this vignette in mind XD:
"Jury! It is true that my client shot five times at the five victims, and the five victims died to gunshots. It is true that we can think of a mechanism that allow a gunshot to kill someone, it is true my client had a motive, had the means and does not have an alibi, but I ask of you. WHAT IF CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION?!?!? What if it was the victims dying that caused my client to shot?!? What if the two events are merely a coincidence!?!?

It's true, my clients plans to shot all of you once he is set free, but maybe, next time his gunshot will NOT result in a victim dying of gunshot!
Finally, sometimes there is an anti-correlation! My client shot a gun and a victim did not die, anti-correlation there! Even more damning, victims died of gunshot, but my client was NOT involved! It doesn't getmore anti-correlated than this!

Jury, you should really let my client go, because you lack evidence that the victim dying of gunshots from my client's guns, are REALLY causal to my client shooting with a gun at them. And when it happen a sixth and seventh time, it still might just be the mere product of chance.

 

Judge, I rest my case!"

[LAwLz]

12 minutes ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

-snip-

Are you going to answer my questions and respond to my arguments or are you going to make silly comparisons that shows a lack of reasoning skills?

Did you read the link I posted earlier regarding correlation and causation? I think it would do you some good reading it.

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

Are you going to answer my questions and respond to my arguments or are you going to make silly comparisons that shows a lack of reasoning skills?

Did you read the link I posted earlier regarding correlation and causation? I think it would do you some good reading it.

not really, considering you dismissed all my arguments as "you can't REALLY be sure that's the case"

e.g. I could apply a fancier filter that takes into account delay in ETH->GPU response and would explain a lot of that anti-correlation, I could even fetch more data and train a regressor, but it's a lot of work and there isn't a point to it, because I consider that output as proof of my point. If you don't, that's okay. It's the same for all my other points. I agree that we disagree.

[LAwLz]

Just now, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

not really, considering you dismissed all my arguments as "you can't REALLY be sure that's the case"

All of your arguments have been logical fallacies or assumptions, so of course they should be dismissed. Do you know what a logical fallacy is?

 

Notice how I didn't dismiss the things I have seen evidence for, such as emissions being reduced by something like 0.1%, the rolling blackouts, the fraud stuff, etc. Because I have seen evidence for those things. You even linked some evidence yourself, which is good.

My problem is that you seem convinced of some things and you are not providing any solid evidence for it. Just because you feel or believe that something is the case, does not make it the truth. You repeating it over and over does not make it more true either.

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

Just now, LAwLz said:

All of your arguments have been logical fallacies or assumptions, so of course they should be dismissed. Do you know what a logical fallacy is?

 

Notice how I didn't dismiss the things I have seen evidence for, such as emissions being reduced by something like 0.1%, the rolling blackouts, the fraud stuff, etc. Because I have seen evidence for those things. You even linked some evidence yourself, which is good.

My problem is that you seem convinced of some things and you are not providing any solid evidence for it. Just because you feel or believe that something is the case, does not make it the truth. You repeating it over and over does not make it more true either.

All of your arguments have been logical fallacies or assumptions, so of course they should be dismissed.

[Dogzilla07]

Supply & Demand is King, the most important factor. Whatever impacts it is Duke, the second most important factor. 

[LAwLz]

3 minutes ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

All of your arguments have been logical fallacies or assumptions, so of course they should be dismissed.

Serious question, how old are you? "No u" is not a proper argument either.

My arguments are not logical fallacies. Saying "hey, do you have any evidence for this or are you just making assumptions" is not a fallacy.

 

If you can't provide any evidence then maybe you should question why you are so convinced of these things to begin with.

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

There really can't be conversation when one side start dismissing arguments.
You think your arguments are not logical fallacies.

I think my arguments are not logical fallacies. (I think your arguments really sow doubt when there is no doubt to be had, but that's my view).

The two arguments are incompatible.

Somewere there is a disconnect in world view, and that's okay. I agree we disagree.

[Dracarris]

3 hours ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

Crypto miners are the only ones that would pay a GPU 5X its MSRP at scales. Professionals (eg bankers) who can justify such prices buy much lower volumes and only a small percentage of gamers would pay 5X for high fidelity gaming. 5X prices are ONLY due to crypto mining.

I think that's a very important and decisive point. Everybody (well the vast majority) but miners would simply stop buying a GPU when a 3080 hits 1500$, I guess most will already stop at 1.2k or so. Nobody would be able to move a GPU at those prices, and the law of supply and demand would cause prices to go down again and regulate themselves.

 

There never has been zero availability of GPUs, no week where there plain was no factory output. GPUs moved and went somewhere at ridiculous prices. And the only sane case of paying those prices is if you can print more money with it in a foreseeable timeframe, aka mining. Yes there will be rare individuals that see no problem with paying 2k for a 3080 and then game with it, but people that can even afford such moves are even in first-world countries in the top 5-10% of population, a fraction of which is gamers, a fraction of which is ready to shill out that dollar amount.

 

And that's a causal link, btw.

[Spicedaddy]

Got a TUF 3080 10GB from Canada Computers for 1099$ today. Cheapest 3080 I've seen since launch here.

 

Not too bad and I can sell my 1660Ti for the same amount I paid in 2019 LOL.

[LAwLz]

21 hours ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

There really can't be conversation when one side start dismissing arguments.

Because logical fallacies are not arguments. They are fallacies.

 

21 hours ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

You think your arguments are not logical fallacies.

Because they aren't.

 

21 hours ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

I think my arguments are not logical fallacies. (I think your arguments really sow doubt when there is no doubt to be had, but that's my view).

But they are. "There is correlation, so that points towards causation" is a logical fallacy.

 

16 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

Even just leaving pricing completely out of the picture, every ETH spike resulted in a drop in availability (fewer retailers with GPUs in stock).

[Citation Needed]

We are currently in an Ethereum spike and I think GPU supply seems better than ever.

[Laborant]

I think, miners were just one factor of several.

Stimulus checks, lockdown policies, supply chain issues, Miners and the fact that the 3000 Series GPUs were actually worth upgrading from a 900 or 1000 Series GPU (the 2000 Series GPUs were a bit underwhelming) - it all came together. Now with 4000 Series GPUs being "around the corner", demand ebbs down a bit.

Crypto Mining is an investment... and every investment has it's side effects.

- If you invest in real estate, you may have a motivation of keeping things clean and maintained for keeping (or raising) the value.

- If you invest in stock, you may allow a company to expand and create more jobs.

- If you invest in crypto, you generate warm air.

[Moonzy]

I wanna add that I personally know of a person from US where they spent tons of money on GPU and pokemon cards in the past two years

When I asked, they told me that Biden said the government would cancel student loans so they went and got a huge student loan to do all these (they're flipping GPU and Pokemon cards on ebay with the money)

They have a backup plan for if the government doesn't cancel the loan, so... -shrug-

 

I know that they're definitely not the norm but, imo, inflation, FOMO, and stimulus checks have been causing people to spend way more money than usual

 

Edit: they somehow manages to get GPU at MSRP by just queuing online, when everyone else said GPU are impossible to get, so idk what's that about the shortage either, maybe they just never tried

[rrats]

4 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

When I asked, they told me that Biden said the government would cancel student loans

I kinda doubt it. I know some people who live in USA and the situation got barely different when Biden became the president

[LAwLz]

On 4/8/2022 at 9:01 AM, Laborant said:

I think, miners were just one factor of several.

Stimulus checks, lockdown policies, supply chain issues, Miners and the fact that the 3000 Series GPUs were actually worth upgrading from a 900 or 1000 Series GPU (the 2000 Series GPUs were a bit underwhelming) - it all came together. Now with 4000 Series GPUs being "around the corner", demand ebbs down a bit.

Crypto Mining is an investment... and every investment has it's side effects.

- If you invest in real estate, you may have a motivation of keeping things clean and maintained for keeping (or raising) the value.

- If you invest in stock, you may allow a company to expand and create more jobs.

- If you invest in crypto, you generate warm air.

Completely agree.

Which is why I think it's strange that @Dracarris is upvoting you when I have been saying the same thing throughout this thread.

 

• People being given thousands of dollars in stimulus checks.
• Everyone being forced to stay at home , things like bars and vacations that people typically spend time and money on gets closed and cancelled, giving people way more time to play video games.
• New generation of GPUs and gaming consoles.
• Shipping issues, everything takes a long time to get.
• Material shortages, not everything from wood to metal, and silicon ingots, etc.
• Production issues caused by people being sick.
• Very high demand for things all of a sudden. A ton of companies are posting record sales despite a ton of supply and demand issues.
• New tariffs being introduced.

 

The list of things goes on and on. Of course mining plays a role in it, in the same way anyone who wants to buy a graphics cards plays a role in it. But it seems to me like a large portion of this forum completely ignores the 8 factors I mentioned above (which is not all of the factors to high GPU prices mind you) and solely focuses on "miners are bad and is the reason for high GPU prices".

As I have said earlier, if I had to put a number of how much of the current GPU supply issue can be attributed to miners, my guess would be around 10%. That is based on observations and statements from multiple sources, both first and third party. The other 90% of the supply and demand issue is caused by other factors such as the ones listed above.

 

 

If we are going with the "correlation implies causation" logic (which is completely illogical) then we could make the argument that gamers are the ones causing the high prices, since now that the 40 series is on its ways, gamers are less likely to buy the 30 series, and thus the prices fall.

Miners don't care about the 40 series since even the 30 series does provide them with money. Miners are not the ones holding off buying graphics cards because the 40 series is around the corner, gamers are. 

Of course, I don't actually believe any of this, but it just goes to show that "correlation implies causation" is a bad argument.

[Dracarris]

19 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Which is why I think it's strange that @Dracarris is upvoting

Lol. I upvoted for this, which is a perfect summary of crypto

On 4/8/2022 at 9:01 AM, Laborant said:

- If you invest in crypto, you generate warm air.

And please stop repeating this stimulus check nonsense. This was a US-only thing and you miss one important point that has been brought up repeatedly in this discussion: Once a 3080 hits 1.5k$ or so, no one but miners will pay those prices. Miners will bcs they can regenerate the investment. And if miners wouldn't buy, prices would quickly come down again, according to the law of supply and demand. They didn't, so there were people out there that bought GPUs at 2-3x MSRP, and it was clearly miners. Source, you ask? Because nobody else in their right mind would or even can shill out this amount of money. Even if millions of Muricans would be stupid enough to spend their full stimulus check on a GPU, it wouldn't even be enough for a 3070. All this during times where many have to fear for their jobs.

 

Prices reached levels that were prohibitive for anyone but miners (and a tiny tiny percentage of population that swims in money) as for miners it simply meant a bit longer to hit ROI.

[Moonzy]

13 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Source, you ask? Because nobody else in their right mind would or even can shill out this amount of money.

Quality sources, I wish this worked for my university assignments

 

References: common sense, duh.

 

13 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Once a 3080 hits 1.5k$ or so, no one but miners will pay those prices.

You built your entire argument on this, so unless you can proof that no one except miners bought a 3080 at $1500, your entire point is not valid.

 

I think it's fairly easy to disprove this, but I really cbf, not like anyone is going to change their mind anytime soon

[Laborant]

I know multiple people who bought 3080ies at these moon prices. But I live in Switzerland where 1500 Bucks is not THAT much of a setback. Still, in my opinion it wouldn't be worth upgrading from my trusty-toasty Vega64.

The institute I'm working at also paid the premium, just to be able to give Bachelor students - who do their thesis at our institute - a machine for AI training.

 

It's certainly not ONLY miners paying that cost. Additionally, there are also some professional workflows that do not benefit from Quadros - I can definitely see 3D studios using GeForce cards - or in my case, training for smaller artificial neural networks. It's a bold assumption that GeForce is only for Gaming or Mining.

 

Miners definitely did their part of the equation - that's for sure. But they are not the only ones to blame - and not the only ones earning money from a GPU (even though the direct correlation at graphics design may be difficult to quantify - as creativity may be hindered by a laggy workflow)

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

1 hour ago, Laborant said:

It's certainly not ONLY miners paying that cost.

My statement was that ONLY miners would pay those costs in volumes. A statement I stand by.

Repeating myself: A banker I know did build a new workstation at those times, price literally was meaningless since it was a businness expense. His bank bought two to let him train his financial algorithm faster. But he needed TWO. Buying two hundreds would not increase his productivity enough to justify the investment, so his bank didn't. For professionals, GPU are tools. You only need as many tools as you need workers able to use them. For crypto miners instead it's a positive feedback loop that promote miners buying GPU and electricity until supply/demand pushes prices of GPU and electricity (causal link).

 

One rig gives 1X residual income. Two rigs give 2X residual income. 100X give 99.9X residual income. 10000X give 9999X residual income. Miners buy GPUs and Electricity until supply/demand pushes ROI beyond 12 months. That ROI threshold is calculated to the moment the ETH cartel switches to an algorithm that does not need GPU, but instead only needs capital.

 

Nvidia themselves boasted multiple times how much revenues crypto generated:

• https://www.barrons.com/articles/nvidia-stock-chips-mining-bitcoin-ethereum-51626799762?mod=article_inline
• https://www.barrons.com/articles/how-cryptocurrency-miners-boosted-nvidias-earnings-51605822391

When ETH mining is profitable and miners ran out of desktop GPUs, miners even resorts to buying laptop with mobile GPUs and push prices of laptop too to an absurd level. They don't care about screen, battery, form factor or anything. Just the mobile GPU chip. That's what it means for a chip that can be bought with dollars to be able to print dollars:

 

I honestly fail to get the resistence to this statement. I assume you like making money using crypto (a statement I do not dispute. You can make money using crypto). The crux of the argument in favour of crypto mining, is that since I can't produce recepits proving that it was only miners who were willing to buy whole factories output for 4X/5X the MSRP, then it is a logic fallacy (which i vehemently disagree).

 

I have explained the feedback loops involved (causal links) and shown how historical data supports them. You can dismiss them as "logical fallacies" and say that it other factors were more important to the GPU price spike of 2021-05. I reject that, because there were other spikes in 2017, 2018 and so forth, and the only factor in common between them IS crypto price. The GPU price spikes don't share pandemics, don't share supply chain disruption, don't share banks suddenly rushing to get GPUs, don't share a country giving a stimulus check. They share a crypto price spike (causal link).

 

My statement is that crypto price is the single most important factor by a large margin to GPU price when GPU price gets above 2X MSRP and there is a spike in crypto price.

[Kilrah]

10 minutes ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

My statement was that ONLY miners would pay those costs in volumes. A statement I stand by.

Yup. I know someone who was buying dozens of cards in bulk straight from his country's Nvidia distributor before they got to reach the retail market to build mining rigs at the worst of the shortage. This is what people have problems with since there's no way any gamer can compete and get a chance.

 

[Dracarris]

3 hours ago, Moonzy said:

References: common sense, duh.

Yeah, common sense, a virtue that is virtually absent these days.

3 hours ago, Moonzy said:

You built your entire argument on this, so unless you can proof that no one except miners bought a 3080 at $1500, your entire point is not valid.

Aaah ye old nitpickery again. The first time I brought up this argument, where it was whole-heartedly ignored by the LTT forum mining fanboy community (TM), I specifically stated that there may be very very few non-miners that still pay 1.5k which however aren't significant in the greater picture.

In-line with

1 hour ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

My statement was that ONLY miners would pay those costs in volumes. A statement I stand by.