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Does the AMP/DAC actually influence audio quality

Stahlmann
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My vote for "diminishing returns" is the $8 Apple USB-C dongle, provided it has enough power. Distortion and noise are too low to be audible under normal listening conditions, performance isn't load-dependent, and output impedance is near zero. It's a great example of how good a cheap chip can be when implemented properly. The $30 Meizu MasterHifi dongle is the next step up, with more power than the Apple dongle and measured performance generally better than the popular $200 stacks (Schiit, JDS, Cavalli) (aside from the comparatively limited maximum power).

 

With respect to where diminishing returns lie, that's largely down to how much a user is willing to pay to deal with vanishingly audible effects. Keep in mind thresholds of audibility often have a lot to do with how well-trained the listener is, whether the listener knows what cues to listen for, and the type of content used. Auditory masking also plays a huge role: effects that are not audible in music generally may become audible with test tones or specific tracks.

 

Here are some of the commonly measured aspects of a DAC/Amp that are audible. Roughly ordered in terms of decreasing importance to the average user:

  • Output Impedance. High amplifier output impedances are easily audible with most dynamic headphones since they create a wide bass boost at the driver's fundamental frequency, usually in the "muddy bass" region. I say easily, but that's relative; it's still not incredibly obvious most of the time. Because it's a low-Q resonance, this effect is readily apparent even with standard music.
    • Honestly this is a matter of subjective preference. For some users and some headphones this type of boost may be desirable. Spun positively, it can make headphones sound "warmer". Looking at you, tube and vintage amps. IMO it's better to use digital EQ than rely on output impedance.
    • Motherboards almost always have a 75Ω output impedance, which means the step up from a motherboard to a basic amplifier is often audible.
    • Some headphones do not have this issue. Planars will have significantly reduced power but usually no other audible effects when used with high output impedance amplifiers. The M50X has abnormally little low frequency driver resonance for a dynamic headphone, which makes it sound about the same even when paired with the awful headphone outputs on motherboards and some cheap "pro audio" marketed devices.
  • Channel balance. Some devices will have significant differences between the left and right volumes, usually due to poor potentiometer tolerances. Although this is often measured, it's almost entirely due to manufacturing variations outside of the amplifier maker's control; the measurements are informative with respect to a particular unit but not to the product's performance in general.
    • Relay attenuators are a form of analog volume control with no channel imbalance (if designed properly), but are expensive, easy to mess up the design of (in audible ways), and make a clicking noise when the volume is adjusted (which some people like but I don't).
    • Stepped passive attenuators are basically potentiometers with a lot of discrete resistors. No channel imbalance, but bulky, expensive, and not as smooth-feeling when turned.
    • Digital volume control has no channel imbalance, but can have reduced noise performance compared to a potentiometer unless the DAC is better than the amp. It also can't be practically implemented in an amplifier without other negative side effects, and most users prefer to control their volume from the amplifier.
  • Frequency Response. Not an audible issue on most modern devices. Some niche cases, usually either involving improperly sized coupling capacitors or lossy audio formats, can result in very audible issues – but I'd classify these more as fatal design flaws than legitimate issues.
    • I don't count intentional EQ as an inherent issue. Normally devices will be upfront about not being neutral when they use an intentional EQ.
  • Noise. Except at the highest listening levels, most amplifiers are limited by noise (but this noise will usually be below audibility). The regime on the left side of a THD+N vs power graph, where the line is straight and tilted downwards, represents the power levels at which a device's performance is noise-limited.
    • On modern devices this is usually constant white noise, from the random fluctuations of electrons in resistors and other resistive elements. This is usually not audible without a lot of gain. If you use significant digital attenuation/EQ and/or listen to very high dynamic range (low average level) content and/or use an extremely sensitive headphone, this may be audible even on decent devices (though this is an atypical use case).
  • Harmonic Distortion. Less audible than spec sheets would like you to believe.
    • Most people won't hear THD below -40dB (1%) with music. It subjectively sounds like "hardness", and is certainly something you can train to hear. Most people can't hear below -60dB (0.1%) with music, even with training.
      • It may even sound like increased "detail", a common problem in audio. Poor designs that create audible correlated artifacts sometimes get touted as "more transparent", and this isn't limited to distortion. Looking at you, tube and vintage amps.
      • Harmonic distortion is tested at higher output levels than standard listening, and distortion increases with level. In other words, products usually have better practical distortion performance than measurements imply.
    • There is an online blind test to check your threshold of audibility. There are some subtle non-distortion "tells" from the way the test's processing was designed, so unfortunately it's not truly a blind test once you figure them out.
    • It's a very popular measurement though as it's easy to do and tells a lot about how good the circuit designer is. If I can see the distortion profile (and distortion vs power) of a device and know what chips they used, I can usually make some good guesses about how the circuit was designed (and what mistakes/cost-cutting decisions they made).
    • As an amplifier designer I still use THD+N as my design goal most of the time, because it's the most impressive single spec engineering-wise. It may not be audible, but it's still fun.

With respect to the K5 vs the Schiit Stack: under our current scientific understanding of human hearing, there is unlikely to be any readily apparent audible difference between the two under normal headphone listening conditions. The K5's relatively high noise floor is by far its biggest weakness, so if you can't hear that then there isn't much reason to upgrade.

4 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

A few questions:

- How did you come to the G103 specifically? What lead you to buy it?

- What gain setting did you use on your K5P and what gain setting do you use now on the G103?

- Are you sure it's really a quality difference and not just that the G103 is generally "warmer" sounding?

- Any way to know what AMP is needed to unlock the headphone's full potential without buying a bunch and trying them all out?

@rice gururecommended me 😛 Also because the EU is terrible when it comes to amplifiers and other audio stuff territory.

I used Gain 1 on K5P and when I tried Gain 2, I noticed more details are revealed. The details were there on Gain 1 but very quiet.

G103 has the Gain levels inside, they are called jumpers but no need to change any at all because this amp is damn powerfull.

When pairing the Amiron Amiron with the G103, sound is indeed warmer and less harsher to be very specific.

 

Regarding your last question, no. There are some exceptions but that might not apply to all headphones or only limited to a few headphones but there is no way to try them all out because it's endless pit, endless rabbit hole.

 

It is true what @mr moosewrote. I hear no difference between the K5P and G103 when using my X2HR for example, even if I try hard, I fail in that. My Meze 99 Classics doesn't sound any better too. So the Beyers really comes to their best when pairing them with a more powerfull and better amps. @Psittacmentioned that too with his DT880 600ohm if I'm correct.

 

Btw, both the K5P and G103 can be used at the same time 😛 The only one downside is, the volume of the G103 is controlled by K5Pro, I believe that's the 'variable and fixed' like some amps have. When no headphone is connected to the K5P, I just max out the volume knob on it and then use the volumeknob of the G103 instead. The K5P is not bad at all. I can use it too with my future 42C2 because of OPTICAL.

 

Again, you have to bear in mind, it depends on what kind of headphones is used. The X2HR can be used on any source and still sounds the same. The Beyers on the other hand is a different story. Pairing a DT990 250ohm or 600ohm with an onboard audio is a complete waste and nonsense for example.

DAC/AMPs:

Klipsch Heritage Headphone Amplifier

Headphones: Klipsch Heritage HP-3 Walnut, Meze 109 Pro, Beyerdynamic Amiron Home, Amiron Wireless Copper, Tygr 300R, DT880 600ohm Manufaktur, T90, Fidelio X2HR

CPU: Intel 4770, GPU: Asus RTX3080 TUF Gaming OC, Mobo: MSI Z87-G45, RAM: DDR3 16GB G.Skill, PC Case: Fractal Design R4 Black non-iglass, Monitor: BenQ GW2280

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23 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

I used Gain 1 on K5P and when I tried Gain 2, I noticed more details are revealed. The details were there on Gain 1 but very quiet.

Isn't the gain basically how much power it's putting out to your headphones? So higher gain = more power?

I use my K5P on gain 3 and max volume and use windows only to control my volume. Just seems like the easiest solution to me.

 

23 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

When pairing the Amiron Amiron with the G103, sound is indeed warmer and less harsher to be very specific.

The Amiron itself is already quite warm sounding. I'm not sure if i'd appreciate any more "loss of sharpness" in the treble range.

 

All this stuff is why "audiophile" marketing is so often used in bad ways... There is just no data for most of it and it all basically depends in trying out as many products as possible. There is no way to know in advance what works well, what doesn't, etc... Even reviews are 99% subjective opinion and 1% actual measurements like frequency response and such.

 

If i think about the fact that i will inevitably have to search for new headphones etc. in the future because something fails i get nightmares.

If someone did not use reason to reach their conclusion in the first place, you cannot use reason to convince them otherwise.

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15 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

Isn't the gain basically how much power it's putting out to your headphones? So higher gain = more power?

I use my K5P on gain 3 and max volume and use windows only to control my volume. Just seems like the easiest solution to me.

 

The Amiron itself is already quite warm sounding. I'm not sure if i'd appreciate any more "loss of sharpness" in the treble range.

 

All this stuff is why "audiophile" marketing is so often used in bad ways... There is just no data for most of it and it all basically depends in trying out as many products as possible. There is no way to know in advance what works well, what doesn't, etc... Even reviews are 99% subjective opinion and 1% actual measurements like frequency response and such.

Higher gains = more distortion. I noticed that when exploding cars in GTAV and I notice some kind of rattle/distortion. With the G103, no longer an issue. This ONLY happens with the explosions in GTAV, so don't take my words for it. The default gain is already really powerfull, not safe to max the volume level.

 

It's difficult to describe the warm-type sounding of the G103 with the Amiron Home. There is no loss of sharpness at all. All the sharpness gets smoothed out and yet nothing is lost. Or better said: silky smooth sharpness.

 

All of the audiophile marketing is way too often used in bad ways. €2500 for "audiophile" ssd? Or audiophile Ethernet cable?

 

Trying out as many products as possible is usually not an option for us, especially Drop versions or outside the EU. Happy with the current audio? Stop right there and stick to it 😛 I only share my experience in case of anyone if curious about. I'm just an average human being tryna enjoy audio with common sense.

DAC/AMPs:

Klipsch Heritage Headphone Amplifier

Headphones: Klipsch Heritage HP-3 Walnut, Meze 109 Pro, Beyerdynamic Amiron Home, Amiron Wireless Copper, Tygr 300R, DT880 600ohm Manufaktur, T90, Fidelio X2HR

CPU: Intel 4770, GPU: Asus RTX3080 TUF Gaming OC, Mobo: MSI Z87-G45, RAM: DDR3 16GB G.Skill, PC Case: Fractal Design R4 Black non-iglass, Monitor: BenQ GW2280

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10 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

not safe to max the volume level.

Could you elaborate? It allows for the biggest range when only controlling volume inside windows.

If someone did not use reason to reach their conclusion in the first place, you cannot use reason to convince them otherwise.

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3 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

Could you elaborate? It allows for the biggest range when only controlling volume inside windows.

I have the windows volume on max so I can just use the volume knob. I control the volume only by using the knob on both K5P and G103.

And with 'not safe to max the volume level', I mean turning the volume knob all the way till it can't move. Is that what you mean?

DAC/AMPs:

Klipsch Heritage Headphone Amplifier

Headphones: Klipsch Heritage HP-3 Walnut, Meze 109 Pro, Beyerdynamic Amiron Home, Amiron Wireless Copper, Tygr 300R, DT880 600ohm Manufaktur, T90, Fidelio X2HR

CPU: Intel 4770, GPU: Asus RTX3080 TUF Gaming OC, Mobo: MSI Z87-G45, RAM: DDR3 16GB G.Skill, PC Case: Fractal Design R4 Black non-iglass, Monitor: BenQ GW2280

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Gain is the amount an amp will multiple the input signal by.    Regardless what it says on the knob, all amps will do it exactly the same.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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On 12/30/2021 at 2:48 PM, CTR640 said:

I have the windows volume on max so I can just use the volume knob. I control the volume only by using the knob on both K5P and G103.

My AMP is hidden away so it's easier for me to use my keyboard volume wheel to control it.

On 12/30/2021 at 2:48 PM, CTR640 said:

And with 'not safe to max the volume level', I mean turning the volume knob all the way till it can't move. Is that what you mean?

Yes i turned it all the way to the right.

If someone did not use reason to reach their conclusion in the first place, you cannot use reason to convince them otherwise.

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This thread is far to long for me to catch up on.  But I'll give my $.02 anyways.

 

I can say for sure with my equipment that each step up is an improvement in some way, but when you boil it down, if the headphones are adequately driven you should be just fine with onboard.  I did a test on the he400i(2017) and 6xx with onboard vs external single ended vs balanced and each step of the way was able to provide improved clarity, richness and dynamics.  Problem being that my dac/amp is a $500 unit with the $650 upgraded version being the only one currently available so of course there is going to be improvements, also all of my headphones are either really easy to drive or really difficult to drive.  I tested my dt880-600 as @CTR640 mentioned with onboard audio and the main issue wasn't volume, I was able to get them at or above my typical listening level however they just sounded horrible.  So my conclusion from that is if in an extreme situation an amp makes every bit of difference and it's probably a sliding scale at that point where it's a world of diminishing returns the less extreme the situation.  For me it's a hobby so I don't mind buying multiple amps and headphones but only have one dac really.

 

Another conclusion that I've come to recently is that if you have one setup for long enough you just get used to it and no longer can discern one from another, when it becomes your new normal I'm not entirely certain if a $1k chain is entirely better than a $40 pair of koss kph30i with pads and an aux extension with your onboard audio.  Once I moved my computer next to a reclining couch and started sitting back with my eyes closed and nothing but music playing, then you can really appreciate what your setup is doing.

 

Do dac's and amps make a difference?  Without a doubt they do and even to a point that you can appreciably notice.  The real question on this forum though, is what your budget is, use case and goals.  The Fosi Audio DAC-Q4 is a $60 dac/amp that I've had for over a year, it was a simple solution to a problem that never found any use.  To this day haven't put more than 5 minutes at a time into it but after the comments of @philiposd I'm going to give it a serious look on a variety of different headphones and pit it against a few other amps.

Open-Back - Sennheiser 6xx - Focal Elex - Phillips Fidelio X3 - Harmonicdyne Zeus -  Beyerdynamic DT1990 - *HiFi-man HE400i (2017) - *Phillips shp9500 - *SoundMAGIC HP200

Semi-Open - Beyerdynamic DT880-600 - Fostex T50RP - *AKG K240 studio

Closed-Back - Rode NTH-100 - Meze 99 Neo - AKG K361-BT - Blue Microphones Lola - *Beyerdynamic DT770-80 - *Meze 99 Noir - *Blon BL-B60 *Hifiman R7dx

On-Ear - Koss KPH30iCL Grado - Koss KPH30iCL Yaxi - Koss KPH40 Yaxi

IEM - Tin HiFi T2 - MoonDrop Quarks - Tangzu Wan'er S.G - Moondrop Chu - QKZ x HBB - 7HZ Salnotes Zero

Headset Turtle Beach Stealth 700 V2 + xbox adapter - *Sennheiser Game One - *Razer Kraken Pro V2

DAC S.M.S.L SU-9

Class-D dac/amp Topping DX7 - Schiit Fulla E - Fosi Q4 - *Sybasonic SD-DAC63116

Class-D amp Topping A70

Class-A amp Emotiva A-100 - Xduoo MT-602 (hybrid tube)

Pure Tube amp Darkvoice 336SE - Little dot MKII - Nobsound Little Bear P7

Audio Interface Rode AI-1

Portable Amp Xduoo XP2-pro - *Truthear SHIO - *Fiio BTR3K BTR3Kpro 

Mic Rode NT1 - *Antlion Mod Mic - *Neego Boom Mic - *Vmoda Boom Mic

Pads ZMF - Dekoni - Brainwavz - Shure - Yaxi - Grado - Wicked Cushions

Cables Hart Audio Cables - Periapt Audio Cables

Speakers Kef Q950 - Micca RB42 - Jamo S803 - Crown XLi1500 (power amp class A)

 

*given as gift or out of commission

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1 hour ago, Stahlmann said:

My AMP is hidden away so it's easier for me to use my keyboard volume wheel to control it.

Yes i turned it all the way to the right.

Ah yes, I see. I have 6 headphones and I'll sell one as I don't like it no more, so my AMP is aside my monitor. I put the Windows volume slider to max and use the volume knob to control it. I wish there are more low profile keyboard with volume wheel, that would be much more convenient.

DAC/AMPs:

Klipsch Heritage Headphone Amplifier

Headphones: Klipsch Heritage HP-3 Walnut, Meze 109 Pro, Beyerdynamic Amiron Home, Amiron Wireless Copper, Tygr 300R, DT880 600ohm Manufaktur, T90, Fidelio X2HR

CPU: Intel 4770, GPU: Asus RTX3080 TUF Gaming OC, Mobo: MSI Z87-G45, RAM: DDR3 16GB G.Skill, PC Case: Fractal Design R4 Black non-iglass, Monitor: BenQ GW2280

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22 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

I wish there are more low profile keyboard with volume wheel, that would be much more convenient.

Logitech G915 TKL is what i'm using. It's pretty much exactly this: Low profile and volume wheel 😄

If someone did not use reason to reach their conclusion in the first place, you cannot use reason to convince them otherwise.

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12 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

Logitech G915 TKL is what i'm using. It's pretty much exactly this: Low profile and volume wheel 😄

My keyboard is the Trust Slimline KB-1450. It's like laptop keyboard😁

DAC/AMPs:

Klipsch Heritage Headphone Amplifier

Headphones: Klipsch Heritage HP-3 Walnut, Meze 109 Pro, Beyerdynamic Amiron Home, Amiron Wireless Copper, Tygr 300R, DT880 600ohm Manufaktur, T90, Fidelio X2HR

CPU: Intel 4770, GPU: Asus RTX3080 TUF Gaming OC, Mobo: MSI Z87-G45, RAM: DDR3 16GB G.Skill, PC Case: Fractal Design R4 Black non-iglass, Monitor: BenQ GW2280

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1 hour ago, Stahlmann said:

Logitech G915 TKL is what i'm using. It's pretty much exactly this: Low profile and volume wheel 😄

technically adjusting the volume digitally is just removing information to lower the volume.  If you have an external analogue solution the volume knob is reducing the power rather than information.  But again that's just a technicality because I doubt most would notice a difference.

Open-Back - Sennheiser 6xx - Focal Elex - Phillips Fidelio X3 - Harmonicdyne Zeus -  Beyerdynamic DT1990 - *HiFi-man HE400i (2017) - *Phillips shp9500 - *SoundMAGIC HP200

Semi-Open - Beyerdynamic DT880-600 - Fostex T50RP - *AKG K240 studio

Closed-Back - Rode NTH-100 - Meze 99 Neo - AKG K361-BT - Blue Microphones Lola - *Beyerdynamic DT770-80 - *Meze 99 Noir - *Blon BL-B60 *Hifiman R7dx

On-Ear - Koss KPH30iCL Grado - Koss KPH30iCL Yaxi - Koss KPH40 Yaxi

IEM - Tin HiFi T2 - MoonDrop Quarks - Tangzu Wan'er S.G - Moondrop Chu - QKZ x HBB - 7HZ Salnotes Zero

Headset Turtle Beach Stealth 700 V2 + xbox adapter - *Sennheiser Game One - *Razer Kraken Pro V2

DAC S.M.S.L SU-9

Class-D dac/amp Topping DX7 - Schiit Fulla E - Fosi Q4 - *Sybasonic SD-DAC63116

Class-D amp Topping A70

Class-A amp Emotiva A-100 - Xduoo MT-602 (hybrid tube)

Pure Tube amp Darkvoice 336SE - Little dot MKII - Nobsound Little Bear P7

Audio Interface Rode AI-1

Portable Amp Xduoo XP2-pro - *Truthear SHIO - *Fiio BTR3K BTR3Kpro 

Mic Rode NT1 - *Antlion Mod Mic - *Neego Boom Mic - *Vmoda Boom Mic

Pads ZMF - Dekoni - Brainwavz - Shure - Yaxi - Grado - Wicked Cushions

Cables Hart Audio Cables - Periapt Audio Cables

Speakers Kef Q950 - Micca RB42 - Jamo S803 - Crown XLi1500 (power amp class A)

 

*given as gift or out of commission

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8 hours ago, Psittac said:

technically adjusting the volume digitally is just removing information to lower the volume.  If you have an external analogue solution the volume knob is reducing the power rather than information.  But again that's just a technicality because I doubt most would notice a difference.

And how do i know the volume knob is also not just digital? I heard there are both types in DACs. Tbh i don't hear a difference with my hardware.

If someone did not use reason to reach their conclusion in the first place, you cannot use reason to convince them otherwise.

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8 hours ago, Psittac said:

technically adjusting the volume digitally is just removing information to lower the volume.  If you have an external analogue solution the volume knob is reducing the power rather than information.  But again that's just a technicality because I doubt most would notice a difference.

Not it's not,  when you lower the levels using a digital process it literally only lowers the value for each sample in signal.  The information remains exactly the same because it scales exactly the same.  So when converted to analog the output waveform will be identical to one that had it been reduced using an potentiometer.  In fact it would be more accurate as a pot generally will have more inconsistency's in FR due to the effects of resistance and capacitance in the pot.   But we are talking shit so small you wouldn't hear it on even the most expensive of headphones.

 

 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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10 hours ago, Psittac said:

technically adjusting the volume digitally is just removing information to lower the volume.  If you have an external analogue solution the volume knob is reducing the power rather than information.  But again that's just a technicality because I doubt most would notice a difference.

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Not it's not,  when you lower the levels using a digital process it literally only lowers the value for each sample in signal.  The information remains exactly the same because it scales exactly the same.  So when converted to analog the output waveform will be identical to one that had it been reduced using an potentiometer.  In fact it would be more accurate as a pot generally will have more inconsistency's in FR due to the effects of resistance and capacitance in the pot.   But we are talking shit so small you wouldn't hear it on even the most expensive of headphones.

 

Potentiometers attenuate noise and signal equally, so the SNR remains relatively constant as the volume is reduced. Full digital volume control attenuates the signal but not the noise, so SNR goes down as the volume is reduced. If the digital volume control has a low bit depth, additional noise also gets added because unless the volume level is a multiple of 2 from full scale, samples must be rounded to the nearest integer value. This process randomly favors higher and lower values, so it roughly works out to white noise around the level of the least significant bit.

 

Digital potentiometers have the advantages of both but introduce their own noise and distortion (they're technically resistor ladder DACs with a variable reference voltage). Relay attenuators have the advantages of both but are expensive and loud (clicky) when adjusted.

 

If the DAC is higher resolution than the amplifier, full digital is ideal. This used to be generally true a few years ago. Nowadays it's more of a toss-up. In most of the common stacks (JDS, Schiit, Geshelli, Topping) the best SNR is achieved with physical volume control, with the caveat that Schiit and Geshelli potentiometers are less than ideal around -6dB attenuation due to thermal noise (this is a tradeoff with cost, input range, and input impedance; not technically a design flaw).

 

If your DAC is 32 bit internally and has a low enough noise floor that it's never audible, might as well use digital.

1 hour ago, Stahlmann said:

And how do i know the volume knob is also not just digital? I heard there are both types in DACs. Tbh i don't hear a difference with my hardware.

DAC volume controls are almost always digital. Amplifiers are almost always analog. Combo units can go either way.

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Volume controls have always been tricky.

 

The biggest issue with pots for volume controls has always been tracking - particularly at the low end of the scale. Things get worse if you need four channels or a differential attenuator. That's going to require a four-gang logarithmic taper pot. If you go with a good pot, that's going to be very expensive. Cheap pots are a bad idea.

 

So we go to stepped attenuators. Awesome, now we can use 0.1% precision thin-film resistors, but we've introduced a new problem - our volume control now has discrete steps rather than a continuously variable resistor. If those steps are too big, adjusting the volume with a signal present will result in a discontinuity that is both audible and annoying. So we solve this by using LOTS of steps. The tradeoff is cost and PCB real-estate, especially if we're doing the switching with relays. Some companies opt to go for rotary switches with lots of positions. This still isn't really a fine enough resolution (in my opinion, at least) and it involves an insanely expensive rotary switch.

 

Using a 32 bit DAC chip and throwing away bits is a decent solution, but does not work if the signal source isn't digital. I suppose you could digitize it with a high-end ADC first, though this is really a brute-force solution.

 

Although their linearity isn't awesome, you could use a THAT 2180 VCA (voltage controlled amplifier) chip, and it would probably be "good enough" for most people, after all there's a reasonable chance whatever console your song was mixed on used significantly crappier VCAs (and MANY of them).

 

A more modern alternative to VCA volume controls is the PGA (programmable gain amplifier). There are dedicated chips from companies like TI and Cirrus Logic, or you could make your own using an MDAC and a good op-amp. TI and AD both have decent application notes on the use of multiplying DACs, and good volume controls can be done this way. You'll probably need a 12 bit or 14 bit multiplying DAC to get a suitable log curve. I have not tested to see how low the THD+N can be, since I used rather crusty AD712 op-amps I had laying around.

 

You can also use LDRs (light dependent resistors). They aren't particularly linear (they have a pretty high voltage coefficient if I remember correctly). For this reason, they aren't particularly popular. Yes, there are some kooky people who swear by them and will tell you they're the duck's guts, but most of us got over the whole LDR thing a long time ago.

 

I'm probably forgetting about some other niche ways of doing volume controls, but that's most of them. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

 

Full digital volume control attenuates the signal but not the noise, so SNR goes down as the volume is reduced.

 

Yes, but it does not raise the noise floor, ergo if you can't hear it to begin with then you won't hear it after either.  If you can then it is because you are amplifying the entire signal again after the digital attenuation, making the digital attenuation pointless int he first place.

 

 

1 hour ago, H713 said:

Using a 32 bit DAC chip and throwing away bits is a decent solution, but does not work if the signal source isn't digital. I suppose you could digitize it with a high-end ADC first, though this is really a brute-force solution.

 

Huh?  majority of the music you listen to is analog in it's origin.   An argument might be made for digitally created sounds, but in the digital realm even they behave identically to analog sounds that have been digitized. 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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8 hours ago, mr moose said:

Huh?  majority of the music you listen to is analog in it's origin.   An argument might be made for digitally created sounds, but in the digital realm even they behave identically to analog sounds that have been digitized. 

I was referring to the playback source - not the music itself. That is to say, it's a perfectly viable solution for your computer, not so perfectly viable if your source is a turntable or tape. 

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5 hours ago, H713 said:

I was referring to the playback source - not the music itself. That is to say, it's a perfectly viable solution for your computer, not so perfectly viable if your source is a turntable or tape. 

If your source is a turntable or tape then the digital component of the signal path is going to be leagues in front of the source to the point that digital manipulation is not going to take away from the original content.    Even cheap ADC's have bit depths that exceed the analog equivalent for tape and vinyl.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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the DAC part is "neglible" returns in my book, depend however on how well it is isolated, so DAC´s onboard in a noisy enviroment like inside a CASE with a full computer build, is not always the best element.

 

on the AMP part, there is LARGE gains in quality to get. also again depends on how you output it, to Speakers, or HIGH Impedence headphones, then it really means something.

 

I think the biggest issues i´ve had with lower quality audio like onboard, or Laptop, is the noise floor, if i use active speakers, like monitors or as an example my old Beolab 3´s and 5´s.. a clean source is really important, or you will have a lot of noise, just idling. 

 

Port output for me is also important..

 

My current setup setup is a bit wierd, i have a DAC that outputs phono to xlr too 2 yamaha HS7 monitors, and also to a THX789 with with an XLR connection.

 

The reason is that i need volume control for my monitors, and i want a direct and standalone control of my headphone output, the THX789 is a decent flat amp, and drives most of my headphones well. but not perfectly.

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1 hour ago, mr moose said:

If your source is a turntable or tape then the digital component of the signal path is going to be leagues in front of the source to the point that digital manipulation is not going to take away from the original content.    Even cheap ADC's have bit depths that exceed the analog equivalent for tape and vinyl.

I never said it would noticeably degrade the original content. Reread my post. What I said is that digitizing it with an ADC, attenuating it digitally, then running it through a DAC is a brute-force solution that is rather impractical to implement in many cases. 

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1 hour ago, H713 said:

I never said it would noticeably degrade the original content. Reread my post. What I said is that digitizing it with an ADC, attenuating it digitally, then running it through a DAC is a brute-force solution that is rather impractical to implement in many cases. 

You said it would not work.   My point is it works very well and in nearly all cases will not degrade the analog signal.  It's also very common in many amps (especially HT) and has been for a little over a decade now. 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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1 hour ago, mr moose said:

You said it would not work.   My point is it works very well and in nearly all cases will not degrade the analog signal.  It's also very common in many amps (especially HT) and has been for a little over a decade now. 

 In some cases it makes sense because you're already digitizing the signal. Most AVRs  have copious amounts of DSP built into them, so they have to digitize analog signals no matter what. In cases like that, it makes sense to implement the volume control that way (cost of an encoder, basically). Same situation for many pro amplifiers, since a lot of them also have DSP, Dante and network controls. 

 

Not so practical for an audiophile power amplifier / headphone amplifier / preamplifier, many  of which still don't have a built-in DAC. 

 

Also, at no point did I say that it doesn't work. What I did say is that it's a brute-force and rather expensive solution for equipment that doesn't already digitize analog signals. Keep in mind that from the perspective of a preamp / headphone amp / power amp, an "analog source" could also be a CD player with RCA outputs, an external DAC, mixing console, signal generator, etc. 

 

There's one other downside to this method, which also applies to any digitally-controlled attenuator: an incremental rotary encoder doesn't have any absolute position (duh), so there needs to be some other way to indicate to the user what the level is currently set at. If the equipment has an LCD already, no big deal. If not, that adds a significant added cost to the bill of materials (and an additional challenge when it comes to cosmetics). I got around this in my lab preamp by using a pot to set the digital level. This works fine since I didn't want a remote.

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

TLDR. Never had an external dac/amp before, was always curious, so yesterday went and purchased iFi Zen Dac v2, because of the online and offline suggestions.

 

No idea if:

- this dac/amp can't do much with my headphones

- I can't hear the difference

- I don't listen to music loud enough...

- my built-in dac/amp is so good

 

Listening on 2017 MBP15 with Sennheiser 560S, streamed some Apple Lossless 24bit/48-192 and some random Flac, went through some rock, metal, jazz, classic, pop.

The only difference encountered: instead of mac's 30-40% volume, went down to dac's 25-30% (on over-ears headphones setting, 40+% on iem setting).

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10 hours ago, rikitikitavi said:

TLDR. Never had an external dac/amp before, was always curious, so yesterday went and purchased iFi Zen Dac v2, because of the online and offline suggestions.

 

No idea if:

- this dac/amp can't do much with my headphones

- I can't hear the difference

- I don't listen to music loud enough...

- my built-in dac/amp is so good

 

Listening on 2017 MBP15 with Sennheiser 560S, streamed some Apple Lossless 24bit/48-192 and some random Flac, went through some rock, metal, jazz, classic, pop.

The only difference encountered: instead of mac's 30-40% volume, went down to dac's 25-30% (on over-ears headphones setting, 40+% on iem setting).

How long do you have the iFi zen dac? When I upgraded my amp to Lake People G103-S, I had to use it for a few days or 3 and there is a difference. Although not by much but the sibilance have been tamed and funny enough I can crank up the volume without pain unlike with my old dac/amp. However, the Klipsch looks damn gorgeous so I wanted to get one really bad and there is a difference too: the Beyerdynamic T5p.2 its treble region have been much more bearable. The treble sounded shrill but now no longer. And the sibilance have been tamed once more in my other Beyerdynamics, truely enjoyful too.

 

But if you stick to your current headphone, then you can return the zen dac just fine. Use the money for something else. Upgrading/changing dac/amps is only good if you have many headphones. The audio hobby is an endless path and I just finished my path after the Klipsch amp and DT880 600ohm after almost two years.

DAC/AMPs:

Klipsch Heritage Headphone Amplifier

Headphones: Klipsch Heritage HP-3 Walnut, Meze 109 Pro, Beyerdynamic Amiron Home, Amiron Wireless Copper, Tygr 300R, DT880 600ohm Manufaktur, T90, Fidelio X2HR

CPU: Intel 4770, GPU: Asus RTX3080 TUF Gaming OC, Mobo: MSI Z87-G45, RAM: DDR3 16GB G.Skill, PC Case: Fractal Design R4 Black non-iglass, Monitor: BenQ GW2280

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