Does the AMP/DAC actually influence audio quality

[Stahlmann]

Do different AMPs/DACs actually have an effect of audio quality as long as they're external (no interference from PC components) and they're powerful enough for the headphones i need to drive? I think there is a lot of marketing BS going on when looking at different spec sheets or product sites.

 

Take for example the FiiO K5 Pro that i currently own and the combo a lot of people recommend, which is the Schiit Magni+Modi combo.

The Schiit products are over twice as expensive as the FiiO AMP/DAC. And like with most enthusiast gear i've seen other options going above and beyond $1000.

So what is the actual difference with more expensive solutions?

[Dedayog]

2 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

Do different AMPs/DACs actually have an effect of audio quality as long as they're external (no interference from PC components) and they're powerful enough for the headphones i need to drive? I think there is a lot of marketing BS going on when looking at different spec sheets or product sites.

 

Take for example the FiiO K5 Pro that i currently own and the combo a lot of people recommend, which is the Schiit Magni+Modi combo.

The Schiit products are over twice as expensive as the FiiO AMP/DAC. And like with most enthusiast gear i've seen other options going above and beyond $1000.

So what is the actual difference with more expensive solutions?

Definitely getting my popcorn for this

 

Audio is one of the last bastions for snake oil.  Since our ears are so very different and subjective, and everyone's home/office/theatre setup is different... you're going to get a LOT of rationalization and justification for the incredibly costly intangibles.

 

Like $1000 connections or speaker wire.

 

There is science and then there is what people want to believe.  Rarely do the two coincide.

[Alvin853]

4 minutes ago, Dedayog said:

Definitely getting my popcorn for this

 

Audio is one of the last bastions for snake oil.  Since our ears are so very different and subjective, and everyone's home/office/theatre setup is different... you're going to get a LOT of rationalization and justification for the incredibly costly intangibles.

 

Like $1000 connections or speaker wire.

 

There is science and then there is what people want to believe.  Rarely do the two coincide.

There is science and it can be measured, typically higher quality components have better SNR and/or less THD, or higher sampling rates, but you hit diminishing returns very quickly. Is it really worth to spend 10 times as much to get an extra 1db of SNR or .1% less THD? That's where it becomes subjective, most people won't be able to tell the difference. Also any recorded audio is never going to sound exactly like the original, recording equipment also has technical limitations. 

[Bad5ector]

24 minutes ago, Dedayog said:

Definitely getting my popcorn for this

Samesie....

[OfficialTechSpace]

51 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

Do different AMPs/DACs actually have an effect of audio quality

 

I do agree with some of what's been said by others already. You do hit diminishing returns at about the $300-$500 mark, but anything leading up to that definitely has tangible and noteworthy change. Snagging an SMSL SP200 would get you by just fine for many years to come, with a plethera of different cans. I've moved up to HiFiMan Ananda's recently, and it sounds great. There's a clear difference when stepping down though.

 

I think that's part of it. If you've never heard the ultra high-end, you won't know what you're missing out on. Once you've heard it, you notice it stepping back down.

[Stahlmann]

10 minutes ago, OfficialTechSpace said:

I do agree with some of what's been said by others already. You do hit diminishing returns at about the $300-$500 mark

So what would be an example of the best AMP/DAC combo before hitting diminishing returns?

[OfficialTechSpace]

10 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

So what would be an example of the best AMP/DAC combo before hitting diminishing returns?

Probably between where the Schiit stacks start, and the mid-level THX amps and AK4497 DACs end.

[GuiltySpark_]

That diminising returns point hits hard then all that matters is the recording and mastering of the audio. These days, I find looking for things recorded well to have a much more profound impact on the perceived quality of what I'm hearing. 

 

I have a Schiit Magni/Modi combo and Sennheiser HD650's and have no real need to change anything.  

[Stahlmann]

1 hour ago, rickeo said:

That diminising returns point hits hard then all that matters is the recording and mastering of the audio. These days, I find looking for things recording well to have a much more profound impact on the perceived quality of what I'm hearing. 

 

I have a Schiit Magni/Modi combo and Sennheiser HD650's and have no real need to change anything.  

I'm also very happy with my FiiO K5 Pro and Amiron Home combo. I'm just interested in where the diminishing return starts.

 

There are products where it's easy to point it out after watch 1 or two reviews or roundups. For example CPUs for gaming performance, monitors, etc. It's pretty clear where the diminishing returns are.

 

But for audio products pretty much every review i find is 80% subjective opinion of the reviewer and 20% measurements and charts that i don't understand. So there is basically no indicator of any diminishing return.

[CTR640]

Here too with my K5 Pro and Amiron Home! I have my Amiron Home almost two years and I still love it.

I made similar topic about this and you probably already have seen it. I came to a conclusion: it's a waste of time, effort and money. If you're very happy with your current combo, then no reason to "upgrade". Now that you mentioned wether the amp/dac actually influence audio quality, I have my Lenovo tablet and the difference between my K5 Pro and the tablet audio is, non-existence. Tried my other two headphones and no difference either.

 

The headphones makes the biggest difference. If you would be hunting down a dac/amp, you'd be walking a never-ending path and for what? Practically nothing.

 

Don't break your head over this, not worth it. I have 6 headphones and 2 wireless earphones and all have different sound. I pick depending on my mood and usage.

[Entropy.]

2 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

I'm also very happy with my FiiO K5 Pro and Amiron Home combo. I'm just interested in where the diminishing return starts.

 

There are products where it's easy to point it out after watch 1 or two reviews or roundups. For example CPUs for gaming performance, monitors, etc. It's pretty clear where the diminishing returns are.

 

But for audio products pretty much every review i find is 80% subjective opinion of the reviewer and 20% measurements and charts that i don't understand. So there is basically no indicator of any diminishing return.

Well, yeah. Diminishing returns is pretty subjective, and in a lot of ways measurements don't tell the full story of a certain audio product, and subjective revies can't usually be trusted (at least much) since the reviewer likely will have different ears, opinions, gear, ect. It's just something that you usually just determine for yourself, like... almost everything else in audio. sigh. While not really relevant to you, I do think that for ~90% of people getting into the hobby, a $200 stack such as the magni 3+/heresey and a modi should be good enough for whatever. $400-$500 for a stack is good for damn near anything, and anything more likely won't benefit you much in most cases. Just me, though. 

 

Quote

Do different AMPs/DACs actually have an effect of audio quality as long as they're external (no interference from PC components) and they're powerful enough for the headphones i need to drive? I think there is a lot of marketing BS going on when looking at different spec sheets or product sites.

Forgot to answer this. Well, yes. First of all if they just have terrible __ (THD, SNR, whatever), a stack can sound pretty crappy with those artifacts. 

You can color the sound in a myriad of ways, cleaner measurements aren't the only answer. Tubes, for example are an easy example of this. Spec sheets and product sites are pretty bad offenders, though. In this day and age, getting a marginally cleaner dac/amp is basically pointless, nobody can hear the difference anyways (Whole topping lineup in a nutshell... lul)

[Stahlmann]

1 hour ago, CTR640 said:

Here too with my K5 Pro and Amiron Home! I have my Amiron Home almost two years and I still love it.

I made similar topic about this and you probably already have seen it. I came to a conclusion: it's a waste of time, effort and money. If you're very happy with your current combo, then no reason to "upgrade". Now that you mentioned wether the amp/dac actually influence audio quality, I have my Lenovo tablet and the difference between my K5 Pro and the tablet audio is, non-existence. Tried my other two headphones and no difference either.

 

The headphones makes the biggest difference. If you would be hunting down a dac/amp, you'd be walking a never-ending path and for what? Practically nothing.

 

Don't break your head over this, not worth it. I have 6 headphones and 2 wireless earphones and all have different sound. I pick depending on my mood and usage.

Like i said i'm perfectly happy atm with no urge to upgrade. I'm just interested in how audiphiles judge audio products. But so far it seems it's pretty much completely up to personal preference and online reviews offer little to no value other than basically ruling out duds.

[CTR640]

17 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

Like i said i'm perfectly happy atm with no urge to upgrade. I'm just interested in how audiphiles judge audio products. But so far it seems it's pretty much completely up to personal preference and online reviews offer little to no value other than basically ruling out duds.

Because there is no reason too except showing off maybe.

[Spuriae]

My vote for "diminishing returns" is the $8 Apple USB-C dongle, provided it has enough power. Distortion and noise are too low to be audible under normal listening conditions, performance isn't load-dependent, and output impedance is near zero. It's a great example of how good a cheap chip can be when implemented properly. The $30 Meizu MasterHifi dongle is the next step up, with more power than the Apple dongle and measured performance generally better than the popular $200 stacks (Schiit, JDS, Cavalli) (aside from the comparatively limited maximum power).

 

With respect to where diminishing returns lie, that's largely down to how much a user is willing to pay to deal with vanishingly audible effects. Keep in mind thresholds of audibility often have a lot to do with how well-trained the listener is, whether the listener knows what cues to listen for, and the type of content used. Auditory masking also plays a huge role: effects that are not audible in music generally may become audible with test tones or specific tracks.

 

Here are some of the commonly measured aspects of a DAC/Amp that are audible. Roughly ordered in terms of decreasing importance to the average user:

• Output Impedance. High amplifier output impedances are easily audible with most dynamic headphones since they create a wide bass boost at the driver's fundamental frequency, usually in the "muddy bass" region. I say easily, but that's relative; it's still not incredibly obvious most of the time. Because it's a low-Q resonance, this effect is readily apparent even with standard music.
  • Honestly this is a matter of subjective preference. For some users and some headphones this type of boost may be desirable. Spun positively, it can make headphones sound "warmer". Looking at you, tube and vintage amps. IMO it's better to use digital EQ than rely on output impedance.
  • Motherboards almost always have a 75Ω output impedance, which means the step up from a motherboard to a basic amplifier is often audible.
  • Some headphones do not have this issue. Planars will have significantly reduced power but usually no other audible effects when used with high output impedance amplifiers. The M50X has abnormally little low frequency driver resonance for a dynamic headphone, which makes it sound about the same even when paired with the awful headphone outputs on motherboards and some cheap "pro audio" marketed devices.
• Channel balance. Some devices will have significant differences between the left and right volumes, usually due to poor potentiometer tolerances. Although this is often measured, it's almost entirely due to manufacturing variations outside of the amplifier maker's control; the measurements are informative with respect to a particular unit but not to the product's performance in general.
  • Relay attenuators are a form of analog volume control with no channel imbalance (if designed properly), but are expensive, easy to mess up the design of (in audible ways), and make a clicking noise when the volume is adjusted (which some people like but I don't).
  • Stepped passive attenuators are basically potentiometers with a lot of discrete resistors. No channel imbalance, but bulky, expensive, and not as smooth-feeling when turned.
  • Digital volume control has no channel imbalance, but can have reduced noise performance compared to a potentiometer unless the DAC is better than the amp. It also can't be practically implemented in an amplifier without other negative side effects, and most users prefer to control their volume from the amplifier.
• Frequency Response. Not an audible issue on most modern devices. Some niche cases, usually either involving improperly sized coupling capacitors or lossy audio formats, can result in very audible issues – but I'd classify these more as fatal design flaws than legitimate issues.
  • I don't count intentional EQ as an inherent issue. Normally devices will be upfront about not being neutral when they use an intentional EQ.
• Noise. Except at the highest listening levels, most amplifiers are limited by noise (but this noise will usually be below audibility). The regime on the left side of a THD+N vs power graph, where the line is straight and tilted downwards, represents the power levels at which a device's performance is noise-limited.
  • On modern devices this is usually constant white noise, from the random fluctuations of electrons in resistors and other resistive elements. This is usually not audible without a lot of gain. If you use significant digital attenuation/EQ and/or listen to very high dynamic range (low average level) content and/or use an extremely sensitive headphone, this may be audible even on decent devices (though this is an atypical use case).
• Harmonic Distortion. Less audible than spec sheets would like you to believe.
  • Most people won't hear THD below -40dB (1%) with music. It subjectively sounds like "hardness", and is certainly something you can train to hear. Most people can't hear below -60dB (0.1%) with music, even with training.
    • It may even sound like increased "detail", a common problem in audio. Poor designs that create audible correlated artifacts sometimes get touted as "more transparent", and this isn't limited to distortion. Looking at you, tube and vintage amps.
    • Harmonic distortion is tested at higher output levels than standard listening, and distortion increases with level. In other words, products usually have better practical distortion performance than measurements imply.
  • There is an online blind test to check your threshold of audibility. There are some subtle non-distortion "tells" from the way the test's processing was designed, so unfortunately it's not truly a blind test once you figure them out.
  • It's a very popular measurement though as it's easy to do and tells a lot about how good the circuit designer is. If I can see the distortion profile (and distortion vs power) of a device and know what chips they used, I can usually make some good guesses about how the circuit was designed (and what mistakes/cost-cutting decisions they made).
  • As an amplifier designer I still use THD+N as my design goal most of the time, because it's the most impressive single spec engineering-wise. It may not be audible, but it's still fun.

With respect to the K5 vs the Schiit Stack: under our current scientific understanding of human hearing, there is unlikely to be any readily apparent audible difference between the two under normal headphone listening conditions. The K5's relatively high noise floor is by far its biggest weakness, so if you can't hear that then there isn't much reason to upgrade.

[Stahlmann]

6 minutes ago, Nimrodor said:

The K5's relatively high noise floor is by far its biggest weakness, so if you can't hear that then there isn't much reason to upgrade.

So by noise floor you mean the noise the AMP/DAC outputs when nothing is playing for example? In that case i don't have a reason to upgrade. I don't hear any noise no matter how high i turn up the volume and gain.

 

Thank you for this extremely informative post!

[Spuriae]

12 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

So by noise floor you mean the noise the AMP/DAC outputs when nothing is playing for example? In that case i don't have a reason to upgrade. I don't hear any noise no matter how high i turn up the volume and gain.

Noise floor is indeed the noise when nothing is playing, though since the K5 is an integrated DAC/Amp you have to make sure that the DAC isn't just muting itself when there is no signal (I don't know if it does; just pointing out that if it did that might skew the results). Since the K5 uses digital volume control, turning the knob should also have no effect on the noise floor.

 

Either way even if the effect is audible under atypical conditions, it's fine to decide that it's minor enough to not be worth caring about.

[8tg]

You get into the land of diminishing returns pretty fast, and the higher end you go the more you’re looking at things targeted towards people who enjoy those tiny differences.

This is coming from someone who owns a bunch of pairs of IEMs, some around the 100-300$ mark, well over 500$, some well over 1500$

Can I reasonably suggest to someone to buy say, 800$ Moondrop Illuminations over 260$ Kinera Freyas? Absolutely not unless you’re into as I mentioned, finding and appreciating small differences. For the everyday user it’s absolutely not even worth looking at.

 

But there are a variety of different gaps in what’s worth it’s price depending on what you’re looking at, when you’re looking at the entry level of the whole scale of for example, small dac/amp setups, buying into something nice in the entry level is rarely that much more expensive than the bare minimum and can give quite decent and noticeable improvements over the lowest of the entry level.

Putting together a Schiit stack is still highly recommended because they are good value, especially some of their lower tier stuff, economical and you get more than what you pay for.

 

Now right above that point, right above that “premium entry level” sort of option, that’s where in my experience products value starts to tank. Suddenly you’re paying 500$ for a dac and it’s barely any better than the 300$ dac, or 800$ iems in my case which I am struggling to find a difference between them and 340$ iems…

 

And then further it’s the same with the high end, the start of the high end can be super interesting, I have a 1600$ pair of QDC dmagics, and a 1300$ pair of QDC Anole v6’s, and that’s an interesting point where I really do notice a substantial difference between them and say, the 800$ illuminations, or the 340$ Blessing 2’s, and they make my everyday pocketed Kinera Freyas sound overwhelmingly mediocre.

But above that, I’ve heard things like the QDC Anole VX, which are 2500$, and they’re nearly identical to my Dmagics.

I have a friend with Empire Ears Odins, which are I think 3400$? And just the same my dmagics sound so incredibly close.

 

It’s where you distinguish different price points and ranges of hardware, and what in that is worth it and what part of it is just a minor step up.

[Shike]

The answer is "maybe".

 

For example, if the device is of poor quality/design, defective, or unsuitable for use intended then it can inhibit the system.

 

Say for example you want to reach Dolby reference home levels in a 20' x 30' room from 15' away with speakers at 84dB sensitivity presenting a 4 Ohm load.  You're likely not going to find an amplifier that is cheap that will do what you want.  In comparison a speaker of moderate sensitivity and easy load in the nearfield could be powered from quite a few cheap options adequately with little compromise.

 

When it comes to headphones though, unless you have something esoteric with obscene power requirements the law of diminishing returns will hit very rapidly.  Well performing DACs and headphone amplifiers have become extremely affordable for performance where defects are below audibility.

 

As such I assert that as long as your device is not causing provable audible defects in the chain then what you get is of little relevance from a SQ perspective.

[H713]

Most reasonably competent (that is to say, not the $10 Aliexpress cheapie) DACs and headphone amps will sound more or less identical. THD+N below 0.01% is realistically more than good enough.

 

Reality is that headphone amps are pretty darn easy to make almost perfect. The loads are generally a very convenient impedance (between 32 and 600 ohms), and the power level is pretty low. All of this means that the thermal stability and SOA issues faced by power amp designers are generally of little concern in a headphone amp. The new headphone amplifier I designed for use in mixing consoles took about 3 hours to design (from conception to exporting gerbers), and it has THD+N below 0.001%. Compared to designing high-speed isolation amplifiers or 500W audio power amplifiers, it's a walk in the park.

DACs are trickier (more sensitive to PCB layout), but companies have largely figured out how to get them right. Even $100 DACs have THD+N so low that only a select few audio analyzers can actually measure it accurately.

 

There is good value to jumping from the $100 class amps / DACs to the $300 range, and that's mostly in build quality and features. Balanced I/O and better volume controls are the main things you get, which are nice to have. Schiit makes some fairly decent headphone amps and DACs, and most of the ones they sell are more or less audibly transparent. I certainly can't tell them apart from the one I designed in a blind test.

[ShearMe]

• There are scientifically measurable differences between DACs and amps
• To hear the difference takes a lot of training and practice, not to mention money to get the equipment
• Just because you can hear a difference doesn't mean the quality is higher/better/worse... It's a subjective preference 

[CTR640]

Yep, I think we should stick to our K5 Pro because we don't hear any noise and are very happy with it too.

[weez]

Audio gear is a crazy rabbit hole and it goes as deep as you're willing to pay. Lucky for me I can't pay a lot. If I had the money I'm sure I would be spending thousands and thousands on dacs and amps and headphones. 

 

Until that day comes I'll continue to be happy with what I have. DT 770 pro and HD 58x and Fulla 3. Makes my ears happy. For now

[CTR640]

Sorry to bump this not so old topic. I upgraded my audio to Lake People G103-S and there is clearly a difference. The Amiron Home sounds much more fuller, lively and all the small details will be revealed. What I also like about the G103 with Amiron Home is, it doesn't hurt at high volume level compared to the K5 Pro. The "sss" always sounded harsh to me and not sure if it's the headphone itself or the source, which it was the K5 Pro. The G103 smooths out the sss in voices for example. With the K5 Pro I had to lower the volume level but I'd be missing details. The K5P is a bit analytical too.

 

Beyers can have their true potentials when pairing them with a quality/powerfull amplifiers.

[Stahlmann]

15 hours ago, CTR640 said:

Sorry to bump this not so old topic. I upgraded my audio to Lake People G103-S and there is clearly a difference. The Amiron Home sounds much more fuller, lively and all the small details will be revealed. What I also like about the G103 with Amiron Home is, it doesn't hurt at high volume level compared to the K5 Pro. The "sss" always sounded harsh to me and not sure if it's the headphone itself or the source, which it was the K5 Pro. The G103 smooths out the sss in voices for example. With the K5 Pro I had to lower the volume level but I'd be missing details. The K5P is a bit analytical too.

 

Beyers can have their true potentials when pairing them with a quality/powerfull amplifiers.

A few questions:

- How did you come to the G103 specifically? What lead you to buy it?

- What gain setting did you use on your K5P and what gain setting do you use now on the G103?

- Are you sure it's really a quality difference and not just that the G103 is generally "warmer" sounding?

- Any way to know what AMP is needed to unlock the headphone's full potential without buying a bunch and trying them all out?

[mr moose]

The biggest effect on how something sounds is the transducer.  Be it headphones, bookshelf speakers, train station horn PA or even a piezo mic receiving a signal up its out pipe.      Second to that is the actual source of the material (vinyl, low bitrate stream, CD or lossless) then thirdly it is the amp/dac/DSP).   Honestly after about $50 RRP,  the difference you hear is more than likely in your brain being steered by your spending emotions.