Jump to content

Does the AMP/DAC actually influence audio quality

Stahlmann
Go to solution Solved by Spuriae,

My vote for "diminishing returns" is the $8 Apple USB-C dongle, provided it has enough power. Distortion and noise are too low to be audible under normal listening conditions, performance isn't load-dependent, and output impedance is near zero. It's a great example of how good a cheap chip can be when implemented properly. The $30 Meizu MasterHifi dongle is the next step up, with more power than the Apple dongle and measured performance generally better than the popular $200 stacks (Schiit, JDS, Cavalli) (aside from the comparatively limited maximum power).

 

With respect to where diminishing returns lie, that's largely down to how much a user is willing to pay to deal with vanishingly audible effects. Keep in mind thresholds of audibility often have a lot to do with how well-trained the listener is, whether the listener knows what cues to listen for, and the type of content used. Auditory masking also plays a huge role: effects that are not audible in music generally may become audible with test tones or specific tracks.

 

Here are some of the commonly measured aspects of a DAC/Amp that are audible. Roughly ordered in terms of decreasing importance to the average user:

  • Output Impedance. High amplifier output impedances are easily audible with most dynamic headphones since they create a wide bass boost at the driver's fundamental frequency, usually in the "muddy bass" region. I say easily, but that's relative; it's still not incredibly obvious most of the time. Because it's a low-Q resonance, this effect is readily apparent even with standard music.
    • Honestly this is a matter of subjective preference. For some users and some headphones this type of boost may be desirable. Spun positively, it can make headphones sound "warmer". Looking at you, tube and vintage amps. IMO it's better to use digital EQ than rely on output impedance.
    • Motherboards almost always have a 75Ω output impedance, which means the step up from a motherboard to a basic amplifier is often audible.
    • Some headphones do not have this issue. Planars will have significantly reduced power but usually no other audible effects when used with high output impedance amplifiers. The M50X has abnormally little low frequency driver resonance for a dynamic headphone, which makes it sound about the same even when paired with the awful headphone outputs on motherboards and some cheap "pro audio" marketed devices.
  • Channel balance. Some devices will have significant differences between the left and right volumes, usually due to poor potentiometer tolerances. Although this is often measured, it's almost entirely due to manufacturing variations outside of the amplifier maker's control; the measurements are informative with respect to a particular unit but not to the product's performance in general.
    • Relay attenuators are a form of analog volume control with no channel imbalance (if designed properly), but are expensive, easy to mess up the design of (in audible ways), and make a clicking noise when the volume is adjusted (which some people like but I don't).
    • Stepped passive attenuators are basically potentiometers with a lot of discrete resistors. No channel imbalance, but bulky, expensive, and not as smooth-feeling when turned.
    • Digital volume control has no channel imbalance, but can have reduced noise performance compared to a potentiometer unless the DAC is better than the amp. It also can't be practically implemented in an amplifier without other negative side effects, and most users prefer to control their volume from the amplifier.
  • Frequency Response. Not an audible issue on most modern devices. Some niche cases, usually either involving improperly sized coupling capacitors or lossy audio formats, can result in very audible issues – but I'd classify these more as fatal design flaws than legitimate issues.
    • I don't count intentional EQ as an inherent issue. Normally devices will be upfront about not being neutral when they use an intentional EQ.
  • Noise. Except at the highest listening levels, most amplifiers are limited by noise (but this noise will usually be below audibility). The regime on the left side of a THD+N vs power graph, where the line is straight and tilted downwards, represents the power levels at which a device's performance is noise-limited.
    • On modern devices this is usually constant white noise, from the random fluctuations of electrons in resistors and other resistive elements. This is usually not audible without a lot of gain. If you use significant digital attenuation/EQ and/or listen to very high dynamic range (low average level) content and/or use an extremely sensitive headphone, this may be audible even on decent devices (though this is an atypical use case).
  • Harmonic Distortion. Less audible than spec sheets would like you to believe.
    • Most people won't hear THD below -40dB (1%) with music. It subjectively sounds like "hardness", and is certainly something you can train to hear. Most people can't hear below -60dB (0.1%) with music, even with training.
      • It may even sound like increased "detail", a common problem in audio. Poor designs that create audible correlated artifacts sometimes get touted as "more transparent", and this isn't limited to distortion. Looking at you, tube and vintage amps.
      • Harmonic distortion is tested at higher output levels than standard listening, and distortion increases with level. In other words, products usually have better practical distortion performance than measurements imply.
    • There is an online blind test to check your threshold of audibility. There are some subtle non-distortion "tells" from the way the test's processing was designed, so unfortunately it's not truly a blind test once you figure them out.
    • It's a very popular measurement though as it's easy to do and tells a lot about how good the circuit designer is. If I can see the distortion profile (and distortion vs power) of a device and know what chips they used, I can usually make some good guesses about how the circuit was designed (and what mistakes/cost-cutting decisions they made).
    • As an amplifier designer I still use THD+N as my design goal most of the time, because it's the most impressive single spec engineering-wise. It may not be audible, but it's still fun.

With respect to the K5 vs the Schiit Stack: under our current scientific understanding of human hearing, there is unlikely to be any readily apparent audible difference between the two under normal headphone listening conditions. The K5's relatively high noise floor is by far its biggest weakness, so if you can't hear that then there isn't much reason to upgrade.

Simple answer: Yes they do make a difference, but not as much as the speakers/headphones themselves.

Longer answer: The transducers (headphones/speakers) themselves will almost always have the biggest influence on sound and generally speaking you should be focusing most of your money there. The primary reason for this is that speakers and headphones will have a significant impact on the frequency response (how loud different frequencies are) which has a drastic impact on how we perceive something to sound. 
This will be the biggest factor in causing something to sound 'bassy' or 'bright' or 'warm' etc.

As a drastic example of this, a very 'bassy' headphone like a Beats pro will have raised lower frequencies:
image.png.bd35ace70c41d2194650e9e907212839.png

There are a lot of intricacies in regards to frequency response and how we perceive things that go beyond the scope of this post but the point is that this is typically the most obvious difference to us. And because speakers/headphones usually have significantly different frequency responses, they sound significantly different to us.


Contrast this to DACs and Amps where pretty much any DAC or amp you can find will have a perfectly flat frequency response out well past 20khz.
That being said, DACs and Amplifiers do absolutely have an influence on sound, I don't think this is really something widely debated. What is debated/argued a lot is what differences between DACs and amps are or are not audible and at what level.

There are a LOT of things that can be different between two devices beyond just frequency response.
Crosstalk, power, THD+N, THD+N vs output level, dynamic range, SNR, Step response, filter design, phase linearity, jitter, etc etc etc.

See one of my sets of measurements for example: https://goldensound.audio/2021/12/27/smsl-d1se-measurements/
USB-XLR.pdf


And whilst almost any of these in isolation is something which is pretty unanimously agreed to be 'audible', what isn't certain in all cases is at what level it becomes audible.
Pretty much anyone is going to agree that crosstalk at -30dB is completely audible, but what about at -100dB? -120dB? -150dB?

And it gets more complicated once you factor in that different types of distortion are more/less audible to humans. 
2nd order harmonic distortion has been shown to be MUCH less audible than intermodulation distortion. So you could have two devices with the same LEVEL of distortion but they'd still sound different cause the type of or structure of distortion is different.

Some of these factors have some study or research done, in some cases with inconclusive or conflicting results, and some simply haven't been looked into pretty much at all. And so the simple answer is 'we don't know' in most cases.

BUT it's pretty simple to show that DACs and amps don't sound the same as you can set up a proper ABX test to demonstrate that a listener can reliably determine which is which between two devices even though they do not know which one is playing.


A good DAC and a good amplifier make a wonderful difference and if you are putting together a nice chain it is 100% something that you will want to spend some money on, ignore those who argue that just cause something has >120dB SINAD it's 'transparent', this simply isn't true. 
BUT, focus the majority of your budget on the transducers.

Video reviews: https://youtube.com/goldensound Written reviews and measurements: https://goldensound.audio
Current Main Setup: Roon -> HQPlayer -> Intel NUC -> Intona 7055-C Isolator -> Holo Audio May KTE DAC-> Holo Serene KTE preamp -> Benchmark AHB2 / Woo WA33
Most used headphones: Hifiman Susvara, Abyss 1266 Phi TC, Sennheiser HD800-S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

And whilst almost any of these in isolation is something which is pretty unanimously agreed to be 'audible', what isn't certain in all cases is at what level it becomes audible.
Pretty much anyone is going to agree that crosstalk at -30dB is completely audible, but what about at -100dB? -120dB? -150dB?

Here's a good test for SnR @ 32 minutes:

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, CTR640 said:

How long do you have the iFi zen dac?

Spent the weekend trying to find the difference in sound. Returned. I guess I'll think about a dac/amp again only if I get some power hungry headphones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

My 2 cents: the Apple dongle DAC is underrated AF.

 

I recon that it outperforms the Audioquest Dragonfly Black 1.3 for 1/10th the price. 

 

I say this because the noise floor on the Audioquest Dragonfly Black 1.3 is quite high and noticeable. The Apple dongle is silent. 

 

On first glance the Dragonfly Black is 'better' because it outputs way more power and bass. But the Apple dongle DAC is simply cleaner. 

 

This is just one example of how the "Audiophile" community is full of BS. Audioquest is a "holy" brand like Sennheiser and nobody dares to criticize. There are so many assumptions out there that "more expensive = better". Specific products get more coverage than others for marketing reasons. And a human being (consumer or reviewer) can only sample so many products and everything is subjective anyways. It gets especially confusing when you combine products with different sound characteristics, the performance can varry drastically.

 

One thing is certain: price plays a huge role in the perception of a product. 

 

I'll add that getting into the "audiophile" hobby implies buying a lot of products based on biased opinions. It's hard to find your "sweet spot" based on your gear and preferences. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, ShearMe said:

Here's a good test for SnR @ 32 minutes:

 

 

 

There are a range of good tests online

 

Frequency response: https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/hearing

Tone-Deafness: https://www.themusiclab.org/quizzes/td

Distortion: http://www.klippel.de/listeningtest/
(Select Full Range driver and 70hz 800hz two-tone)

Though worth noting that for all of these the windows audio mixer itself can be a bottleneck, this is true for any desktop/browser based test that is not able to use a WASAPI exclusive or ASIO driver. 
This makes tests such as this one: http://abx.digitalfeed.net/ much harder to complete successfully than ACTUALLY listening to lossless vs compressed audio, because on that test the lossless audio is not actually being played bitperfect/losslessly anyway.

A better way to do the above is with something such as the Foobar ABX plugin https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx. As this can allow you to utilise exclusive mode and test any two files with any number of runs you'd like.

Or if you're wanting to test actual DACs/Amps, there are unfortunately not really any solutions, myself and a friend ended up designing an ABX switch just because of this 😛

 

Video reviews: https://youtube.com/goldensound Written reviews and measurements: https://goldensound.audio
Current Main Setup: Roon -> HQPlayer -> Intel NUC -> Intona 7055-C Isolator -> Holo Audio May KTE DAC-> Holo Serene KTE preamp -> Benchmark AHB2 / Woo WA33
Most used headphones: Hifiman Susvara, Abyss 1266 Phi TC, Sennheiser HD800-S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×