My opinion on Linus and Luke's Linux challenge

[jde3]

22 minutes ago, maplepants said:

Docker is not a VM solution. Containerization is not the same as virtualization. From one operations guy to another; you really should look into learning about contanerization.

 

Containerization platforms are not just failed virtualization technologies. They have completely different goals, and that's why the feature set doesn't line up one to one.

 

Docker engine and all it's containers share the host container on Linux and share a single Linux kernel with Docker desktop on macOS and Windows.

I really encourage you to read about containerization, because you're getting absolutely basic stuff wrong here in addition to your complaints just fundamentally misunderstanding the problem Docker, lxc, lxd and other solutions are trying to solve.

 

I don't mean this in a rude way, but based on your posts here you don't know or understand much about Docker & containerization at all.

 

• You've complained that Docker doesn't make a good VM, which it isn't trying to be
• You've said that Ansible and Puppet offer the same functionality as kubernetes and they just don't (check out the ansible role for kubernetes and compare the problems solved there with the problems solved by Ansible and Puppet)
• You didn't know that lxc was built into the Linux kernel
• You didn't know that containers share the host's kernel and hardware drivers (this is actually a huge benefit for containers like TensorFlow which rely on specific hardware drivers)
• You think the main benefit of conainers is fast deployments, when it really isn't

Obviously in your current role, containerization doesn't play a large role and your lack of knowledge there doesn't hold you back. But I'd encourage you to actually take the time to look into containerization more deeply. If you're on the job market as an Ops guy a limited knowledge of containerization will really hold you back. You will not be able convince shopify or some other tech company to completely ditch containers just because you don't have a deep knowledge of them.

Wow. ok. So are containers OS level virtualization or not? With your extreme knowledge here.. Can you tell me what OS level virtualization is and how it is different than containerization?

 

I feel like I have to guide you through here step by step. You are getting lost in the abstractions. You are 100% missing the point because you don't understand the fundamentals.(the fact you are a Linux person.. I'm really not surprised by this)

[maplepants]

42 minutes ago, jde3 said:

Wow. ok. So are containers OS level virtualization or not? With your extreme knowledge here.. Can you tell me what OS level virtualization is and how it is different than containerization?

 

I feel like I have to guide you through here step by step. You are getting lost in the abstractions.

I have done my absolute best to be nice here man. Your understanding of conainerization and the problems it attempts to solve is very limited. Which is, in itself, fine but you're being such a smug jerk about Docker while also having no clue how it works. 

 

This kind of smug talking down tone is one thing when the person is right, but you're use of it here while also being so wrong has just taken the fun out of this discussion for me.

 

So I'll leave with some basic primers on containerization, just to get the ball rolling for you because I do think it'll help your career if you get a better handle on this stuff. Also, looking back I realize I've been posting articles and man pages, but you've been posting YouTube videos so I'm going to assume you're more of a visual learner.

 

Here's great digram from the intro article I linked you

 

This shows in a nice visual way, how resources are shared differently for containerization solutions and hypervisors.

 

And for a nice YouTube intro to the topic here, I recommend the series VM Ware did: 

 

The VM Ware people know what they're talking about and this video does a great job of outlining how containers and vms differ, and why somebody might choose one or the other.

 

As an operations person, knowing about containerization is likely going to be important for any job beyond your current one that you might be interested in. I hope that you're able to beef up your knowledge there so that opportunites don't pass you by.

[jde3]

24 minutes ago, maplepants said:

I don't mean this in a rude way, but based on your posts here you don't know or understand much about Docker & containerization at all.

Really?

 

24 minutes ago, maplepants said:

You've complained that Docker doesn't make a good VM, which it isn't trying to be

This statement makes no sense at all. Apples are not screwdrivers. Congratulations. I don't know what you are even talking about with statements like this.
 

26 minutes ago, maplepants said:

You've said that Ansible and Puppet offer the same functionality as kubernetes and they just don't (check out the ansible role for kubernetes and compare the problems solved there with the problems solved by Ansible and Puppet

 

I never said they were the same. This was in response to your claim that jails can not do orchestration.

 

30 minutes ago, maplepants said:

You didn't know that lxc was built into the Linux kernel

LXC is upstack of the Linux kernel. LXC has it's own code base. https://github.com/lxc
It is not part of the Linux kernel.

 

32 minutes ago, maplepants said:

You didn't know that containers share the host's kernel and hardware drivers (this is actually a huge benefit for containers like TensorFlow which rely on specific hardware drivers)

I've been saying the entire time that they do. I've been lamenting that they do not do it securely on Linux. Are you reading?

 

34 minutes ago, maplepants said:

You think the main benefit of conainers is fast deployments, when it really isn't

There are many benefits, I've been talking about their security, performance and mutitenancy aspects extensively. Speed of deployment and development seems to be the most prevent and the only one people look at first however.

 

I can get you to the level of understanding you need to be at here but you need to pay attention.

 

[jde3]

41 minutes ago, maplepants said:

I have done my absolute best to be nice here man. You're understanding of conainerization and the problems it attempts to solve is very limited. Which is, in itself, fine but you're being such a smug jerk about Docker while also having no clue how it works. 

---snip--

Very arrogant for someone so ignorant.

To answer my own question because your incapable.

Containers are OS level virtualization, They are the same thing. Docker coined the term containers but OS level virtualization has been around a long time. That is talking a single kernel image and punching out multiple separate userland instances. They have their own namespace (process and files) their own network stacks, They are very very much like a VM but they are *not* VM's. The key difference being a VM emulates hardware. Hardware level virtualization != OS level virtualization.

 

Docker nor LXC nor a Jail can be called a VM because they are wildly different from the systems perspective.. however to a user they may seem the same and there are vast benefits for using OS level virtualization as opposed to hardware level virtualization for the reasons I stated. Primarily you only have one kernel. One kernel is fast, one kernel is good, one kernel is easy to manage, one kernel is efficient, one kernel is easy to debug.. on and on.

 

So far so good?

Hardware level virtualization = A hypervisor, KVM, VMWare etc.

OS level virtualization = Jails, Zones, Docker, LXC etc.

 

So when we are talking about virtualization technology we have two here.. OS and Hardware. Right? If Linux had a complete OS level virtualization stack like Jails or Zones, then why is it that best practices has people putting Linux containers in a VM? If they do pretty much the same thing from the user perspective, why is Linux using both? - Answer. Linux never fully implemented them. See my first post.

 

I wouldn't worry about my career path.. I seem to be working with technology and solutions decades ahead of what you're using. (Vmware : rolls eyes : dead technology.. It's Novell Netware circa era 2000.)

[MrXeno]

One is not better then the other. it all depends on the need and use case. I have used both jails and containers because of the use case's we had both to have the best flexiable options. Both are great options so it all depends on your use case at the end of the day.