My opinion on Linus and Luke's Linux challenge

[jde3]

On 10/1/2021 at 7:17 PM, mail929 said:

If this happens to catch your attention hi @LinusTech and @Slick. I've been using Linux since high school (10 years now) and have experience with almost all the distros on your poll. First off I'd like to give some input on the challenge. I think it's awesome that you're doing this and bringing more attention to Linux and the improvements the community has made in the last decade or so. That being said if you choose the wrong distro you could make all of Linux look really bad. Every distro is different and targeted to a different audience. To explain I will give a brief explanation of each distro on the poll, but I trust @GabenJr will be a good filter for you.

-- snip --

.

 

I am a very very long time Linux user (1994) and a professional sysadmin.

I personally try to stay as far away from Linux as I can because of the complexity bloat of it. (despite working on it every day at an extremely advanced level.)

My rankings for Unix workstations would be:

1. FreeBSD (or GhostBSD)

2. MacOS

3. Gentoo (because I can actually fix the problems with Linux here by ripping stuff out and rebuilding half of it.)

4. Ubuntu

It all comes done to ease of use and how much headache you want and how much you want to mess with it. I find Linux to be very fragile and often duct taped together with python scripts.

 

I do prefer Gnome to MacOS's UI (Aqua?) - but meh. Close enough anymore..

[flindeberg]

On 10/7/2021 at 4:08 AM, Slipfox said:

Has Valve officially announced that it's going to be pacman based? I'm guessing so since it'd be weird to roll any other package manager on an Arch based distro, but nonetheless.

Hms, good question, I can find it here and there (wikipedia, reddit, etc), but not in written communication from Valve directly. Valve only uses the wording "Arch-based".

[HelloInternet]

A lot comes down to the question if you want a distro with a rolling release model or a fixed release model.

For example "Solus" is in my opinion a very clean, elegant looking distro however if you prefer a fixed released model

"Ubuntu Budgie" would be a better choice.  Both look very elegant.

By the way "distrowatch" is very good site to get overview of the features of many distros.

 

PS:

If you want to see how a "Cyberpunk" version of Linux might look , there is "Garuda Linux dr460nized edition"

 

PPS:

My mother started using Linux Mint. It is very user friendly.

[Uttamattamakin]

On 10/8/2021 at 5:28 PM, jde3 said:

It all comes done to ease of use and how much headache you want and how much you want to mess with it. I find Linux to be very fragile and often duct taped together with python scripts.

This can definitely be the case for many distros especially as one begins to customize, and customize, and customize it to get things to work just right.  While most core functions will work out of the box these days, specific hardware or software working together right can be a pain. 

One thing no one has mentioned are the following options.  

Use of a lite linux distro as a base OS.  Then running windows in a VM with a passed through GPU.  Then accessing Linux apps via X11 forwarding.  By that method get the best of both worlds.  All your Windows and Linux apps on a single unified desktop that is familliar.  

OR to go the other way ... use QUBES OS and run Window 7 inside it.  

OR to go the whole other way... if we really want to open up what a "Linux distribution" means @LinusTech go just get say A Samsung phone and use Dex or even more like a computer grab a high end Chromebook, they can run Linux apps without any hassle now.    Though that might be cheating a little. 

 

[Arika]

I feel like one of the biggest problem with the Linux "community" is on full display here. They don't want people to try Linux, they want them to try and join their specific flavour of linux and get upset when they chose something else.

 

I've seen another thread where they were accused of going the easy route when mentioning pop and disregarding arch amd fedora.

 

Let people chose what they want to use, it's their computer after all

[Alexander Pushkin]

32 minutes ago, Arika S said:

I feel like one of the biggest problem with the Linux "community" is on full display here. They don't want people to try Linux, they want them to try and join their specific flavour of linux and get upset when they chose something else.

 

I've seen another thread where they were accused of going the easy route when mentioning pop and disregarding arch amd fedora.

 

Let people chose what they want to use, it's their computer after all

I think rather that the biggest problem with windows10 is on full display here. What the preceding pages show is that people have different preferences about many different details. With windows10, many of these things are decided by a company that often doesn't have the best intentions with their users. With Linux you don't have these problems and your freedom of choice is not completely restricted. I don't think many people have made any accusations yet, when I look at most of the previous posts. So it seems you are exaggerating.

 

I have personally used Linux for over 10 years and I have also been using FreeBSD for several years now. I haven't used windows or ms office for over 15 years meanwhile. Except at work. And there are some insights that I have that I would like to share. For people who have no experience with Linux and are making the switch (and planning to game) there are only three suitable choices in my opinion: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/users/statistics It is simply more intelligent to choose a system based on Arch (eg EndeavorOS) or on Ubuntu (eg KDE neon). Why? Both have the best support for games, with other systems (Solus, Fedora, OpenSUSE, etc) you are usually more likely to get a game not working. (this is my deep experience)

 

Suppose you are not a technical user, and for some reasons you do not wish to use an Arch or Ubuntu based system. Then the first system you use should be OpenSUSE. Not eg Fedora or Solus or Debian. Why? Many people are like my sister. My sister has used a system all her life where she just has to read some text and click her mouse. So my sister never became familiar with a terminal. As wonderful as a terminal is for people like myself, most people never learned to work with it in their schooling. OpenSUSE has YaST, so my sister won't have to use a terminal that she hates. Furthermore, KDE Plasma is also more advanced and efficient than Gnome and it is more familiar to Windows users. And OpenSUSE has one of the best KDE Plasma implementations out there.

 

So my recommendation for beginners would be the following:
1) Person with very little technical knowledge: An operating system based on the latest Ubuntu-LTS edition.
2) Person with average technical knowledge: OpenSUSE or an easy operating system based on Arch Linux (or the above option)
3) Person who is good at configuring software: OpenSUSE or an operating system based on Arch Linux

 

For desktops, I would recommend KDE Plasma and Xfce. Not Gnome. Although Red Hat is one of the best software companies in the world, I have to say that I have a hunch that they premeditately make their desktop software less good and advanced than the macOS and windows10 UI. Simply because they don't want to compete with Microsoft and Apple for the desktop market.

 

Are the three operating systems above the best systems for everyone and for every purpose? No, of course not, but they are the three best options for novice Linux users who want to play games.

 

Personally, I think FreeBSD is the best operating system technically. But I also understand that many people don't have the time or skills to work well with it. And because so few people use it, it will also be less used for gaming and have less support for it. But the platform itself is the best gaming platform. Just look at the PS5 whose operating system is a derivative of FreeBSD. Beyond that, there are a few other important things that FreeBSD is technically best at:

https://long-zhou.github.io/2012/12/21/epoll-vs-kqueue.html

https://redbyte.eu/en/blog/postgresql-benchmark-freebsd-centos-ubuntu-debian-opensuse/

 

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?item=netperf-bsd-linux&num=3&page=article

 

And then there's Jails (much more secure than the popular Docker containers) and bhyve (the fastest boot times for a VM) and the fact that FreeBSD has the best ZFS implementation of all systems. Aside from Jails and bhyve, ZFS alone is sufficient reason to claim that FreeBSD is technically the most advanced operating system:

https://www.scribd.com/document/3733733/Solaris-ZFS-The-Most-Advanced-File-System-on-the-Planet

https://www.eurovps.com/blog/why-zfs-file-system-rocks/

[Arika]

I'm only going to reply to this, because everything but the 1st paragraph isn't related to what i said, so i assume it was just contribution to the thread as opposed to a reply to me

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I don't think many people have made any accusations yet, when I look at most of the previous posts. So it seems you are exaggerating.

You joined 1 hour ago and have probably only read this thread. so let me direct you to:

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I kinda worry, that they'll go the "easiest" way and won't use the terminal at all

which as my reply to that thread was:

 

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If the point is "i want to try Linux and see if it's something i can use full time" then it SHOULD be the easiest route. You'll do nothing but turn away potential users by intentionally making things hard. Because if they have a bad experience, they are going to mention it which might make people thinking about switching, just not even try it.

Because, like it or not, a LOT of people are going to base their decisions about moving to Linux purely on what luke and linus say, so if they don't go with something beginner friendly (because it's not something they have daily driven before) and they run into trouble they ARE going to talk about it, and people less knowledgeable will just think that Linux is hard, not that certain distros are hard, but the entire OS.

 

And yes there have been other threads here, in the YT comments and on twitter, made along these lines that have essentially been "Why doens't Linus use <my favourite distro>!?!?!?!?!"

 

Because the point of the challenge is not to review distros. it's to see if they can completely move away from Windows, whether that be just temporarily for the challenge, or on a permanent basis. Linus and Luke would be well equipped to research what distro will work for them, they have Anthony and Wendal to give direct insight, something that most potential new users won't have access to.

 

Hence my original reply of "Linux users don't want people on Linux, they want them on THEIR distro". It really shouldn't matter what distro people use as long as it's right for them. the more people on Linux, the better, whether that be Debian and it's derivatives, Arch and it's derivatives, OpenSUSE, Fedora etc, Don't get into the habit of "well if you use this distro, you're not a real linux user" or "you should use terminal for everything" because it creates and air of elitism (which does absolutely exist) that does nothing but damage the reputation of Linux as a whole.

 

Quote

With windows10, many of these things are decided by a company that often doesn't have the best intentions with their users.

and yet, they ust work. getting basic functionality on my laptop's trackpad on linux was an absolute pain in the ass which is actually a downside of Linux, there is so much choice that things don't work without some really stupid workarounds and changes. Windows is a monolith of support that can just grab generic drivers for 99% of devices and run them perfectly without any user interaction.

[Jaesop]

On 10/3/2021 at 5:28 AM, flindeberg said:

Eh? I think you must have misread what I wrote, my perception is that pacman-based distros will have an advantage as they have an easier time leveraging the work of Valve done for SteamOS (i.e., the Steam Deck). This means, in practice, that all distros which directly can pull the modification made for SteamOS will have an advantage for things like EAC and BattleEye support. Look at the Valve AUR-repository, there are components there which are horrendously complicated to port to deb:s and rpm:s without horrendously breaking dependencies. 

At the end of the day, SteamOS will be Arch with Steam installed, alongside some custom packages and their own repos. There isn't going to be some fundamental changes to the OS that can't be reflected in basically any modern Linux distro.

 

On 10/3/2021 at 5:28 AM, flindeberg said:

And in extension, the best Linux distro for gaming, hands down, will be SteamOS when released publicly; as it by default will have a decently new kernel (required for 5/6000 Radeon cards), contains a modern enough MESA-driver stack (the best on for Radeon cards, IMHO) and a new enough kernel to allow Wayland on Nvidia-cards (probably with the correct kernel parameters as well so users don't have to mess with them, see for example https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/kernel_parameters for the current hassle of getting Nvidia to work with Wayland). 

That all applies to Fedora too, as well as any bleeding edge or adjacent system.

 

On 10/3/2021 at 5:28 AM, flindeberg said:

My point, explicitly, is that the base distro is not important, the package manager is. And in this case it means Debian (and derivatives like Ubuntu, PopOS, Mint, etc), Fedora (and the entire RHEL-family), Gentoo, etc, will have one hell of an uphill battle when it comes to user-friendliness as SteamOS (and similar, I think the Manjaro-team will work on being as easy to use as SteamOS) as SteamOS will just work regardless of hardware (graphics card, processor, number of displays, etc).

 

Have you tried modern hardware on a Debian-based LTS distro?

That's a very oddly specific question, isn't it? Yes, some distros won't be ideal but many will be, and just as ideal as Arch or Arch based systems. I daily drive Fedora and it took exactly no effort to have Steam running everything I could expect.

[Giganthrax]

Both Linus and Luke should absolutely use a mainstream, LTS, hopefully Ubuntu-based distro with a modern, nice-looking interface, preferably something like KDE that's easy and intuitive for Windows users to switch to. Arch, OpenSUSE, and other advanced stuff shouldn't even be considered.

 

The goal is to make the transition as smooth as possible, and to show to the greater audience that this transition doesn't have to be a massive hassle. This type of video may not be overly exciting to longtime Linux users, but it's ultimately what's best for everyone.

[Kilrah]

For the record they've already selected their distros and started the whole thing, see last WAN show from 20mins on, those on flaotplane can also see the first game stream they did from linux where they say more about the experience so far.

 

 

I guess the comments will switch from "they should choose X!!" to "why did they choose X??" 

 

46 minutes ago, Giganthrax said:

LTS

That's the thing, LTS isn't an option since they've got new and/or exotic hardware.

[Alexander Pushkin]

12 hours ago, Arika S said:

and yet, they ust work. getting basic functionality on my laptop's trackpad on linux was an absolute pain in the ass which is actually a downside of Linux, there is so much choice that things don't work without some really stupid workarounds and changes. Windows is a monolith of support that can just grab generic drivers for 99% of devices and run them perfectly without any user interaction.

You are right that there is certain hardware that is better supported on windows10 than on Linux or BSD. Although I have to admit that with the seven laptops I tried Linux on, the trackpad always worked automatically, with the exception of Debian. With Debian I had to install and configure the correct driver for the trackpad to work. But this is kind of the thinking behind Debian. A lot of people do indeed think that their hardware is usually going to be better supported on windows10, and that windows10 has better software. But I think, in general, neither of the two is the reality. I will give some examples that illustrate this very clearly.

 

View the blue sticker on this device: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fitems.s1.citilink.ru%2F727965_p01_b.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

Please see the type of response you get from Microsoft agents when you run into problems with this popular device on windows10:
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/lifecam-hd-3000-not-working-on-64-bit-windows-10/06156168-85fb-47ee-8d2e-0795e1683fe7

 

This is not an uncommon anecdote for windows10 users, here are some similar occurrences:

1) 'Loud background/humming noise comes from microphone when I use this webcam. Tried everything, changing location and USB port. Can’t get it to go away. Definitely would not recommend unless it’s for video only.'
2) 'There is a large discussion on Microsoft's Answers website about this webcam and how the most recent models produce a very annoying buzzing sound, like a bee flying next to the mic.'
3) https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/microsoft-lifecam-hd-3000-microphone-not-working/6b402785-0e15-4dbf-9c08-8616412e326f
4) https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/microphone-not-working-in-windows-10/507d95bc-0705-40e1-add5-acb6b1fcad3b
5) https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/microphone-not-working-on-lifecam-hd-3000/e3e5d424-4647-4863-94c4-26b122820482
6) https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/skype/forum/all/webcam-mic-not-working/874944c8-d31a-483f-b55e-a12bc81275ab

 

I will never have to do all the 'antivirus steps' (that are sometimes recommended to windows10 users) on FreeBSD. The 'antivirus disable' that people recommend as a solution to this type of problem: antivirus software has become worthless in 2021. It causes many additional security problems and offers little protection against most new techniques.
There are also a lot of reports from people who have been able to get the microphone to work in windows10 but have such poor audio quality that they ask how they could use an external mic.
So that's a second thing, the sound of this specific webcam in FreeBSD is decent. A lot of windows10 users will not be able to say this about their result with the HD 3000 in Telegram conversations.

Then there is a third problem for windows10 users. Numerous users complain that the micro has stopped working after a certain windows 10 update and thus is currently incompatible:

 

https://www.tenforums.com/drivers-hardware/77989-lifecam-hd-3000-stopped-working-after-windows-10-anniversary-update.html
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/lifecam-hd-3000-suddenly-stopped-working/7f69a2d0-a088-4d91-a1d6-6a609afd9f7b
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/microsoft-lifecam-hd-3000-microphone-not-working/6b402785-0e15-4dbf-9c08-8616412e326f
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/microphone-not-working-in-windows-10/507d95bc-0705-40e1-add5-acb6b1fcad3b
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/need-help-troubleshooting-microsoft-lifecam-hd/957d86b8-2609-4d92-9e9b-886abf7b774f
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/lifecam-hd-3000-stops-working/59243e18-d4d3-438e-a5e6-5f3d29df3e80
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/microsoft-lifecam-hd-3000-windows-10-driver/3b0bf58f-cc70-4708-adf9-9a8772a6c6c1
https://www.windowsphoneinfo.com/threads/microsoft-hd-3000-cam-stopped-working-not-showing-up-in-device-manager.580500/
https://www.windowsphoneinfo.com/threads/lifecam-hd-3000-suddenly-stopped-working.542776/
https://www.windowsphoneinfo.com/threads/my-microsoft-lifecam-hd-3000-has-stopped-working-again.564129/
https://www.windowsphoneinfo.com/threads/problems-with-new-webcam-lifecam-hd-3000.532331/
https://www.windowsphoneinfo.com/threads/microsoft-webcam-lifecam-hd-3000.324172/

 

Overall, I think there's a lot of info that illustrates that windows10 doesn't have better hardware support than Linux. Here are some additional examples:

 

Blender Developers Find Old Linux Drivers Are Better Maintained Than Windows
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Blender-2.80-GPU-Requirements

 

Going where no Steam Play has gone before with Elite Dangerous (this article is partly about the hardware support of windows systems)
https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2019/08/going-where-no-steam-play-has-gone-before-with-elite-dangerous

 

Is Windows 11 Pushing Us Towards An E-Waste Crisis? (this is also about hardware support)
https://fossbytes.com/windows-11-pushing-e-waste-crisis/

 

Here's another telling anecdote: https://news.slashdot.org/story/17/12/29/2056225/how-hotmail-changed-microsoft-and-email-forever
Each FreeBSD system (a $200 motherboard sitting on a piece of cardboard), needed 20 Win-NT servers to replace it, each costing ten times as much as the FreeBSD boards. Since this was clearly unworkable, they waited another 3 years to do the transition, while both hardware and software improved.
Why did the Hotmail servers have to switch to windows when FreeBSD is both more secure and faster?

 

The problems of windows10 go much deeper than just hardware support. The following things also play a role:
1) Typically the lowest overall performance of any operating system resulting in a significant waste of energy.
2) The operating system can be described as the worst spyware. No other operating system tries to spy on its users so actively.
3) The vast majority of malware is developed for windows. Cybercrime costs will surpass 6 trillion this year, a significant portion of which is due to windows10, which has the worst security of any operating system on Earth. If Microsoft were to repay the costs of the cybercrime that is a result of their elusive security, Microsoft will go bankrupt after a few years.
4) There are probably no Linux or BSD systems that have worse stability than windows10. Tests have shown that open source software has fewer bugs than proprietary software.
5) The customer support of their products is placed in India. And these support agents can do nothing but present solutions that have a 0.001% probability to solve the problem or they say that a Microsoft product with the sticker 'supported by windows10' is apparently not compatible after all.
6) Is it just me or is sound really not that good on windows 10? https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/is-it-me-or-is-sound-really-great-on-freebsd.63393/

7) Not only the hardware support of windows10 is lacking, also the software support. You should check out their NginX support. This is in beta stage on windows. Although it has been the best web server for five years and runs on over 400 million servers currently. Jitsi Meet has worked perfectly with both Chrome and Firefox since its inception and has been more user-friendly than MS Teams since its inception. A MS Teams link still doesn't work in Firefox and MS Teams also had many more security vulnerabilities, bugs and performance issues. The MS Teams web app doesn't support some of the Teams calling and meeting features in Firefox. Also check out the python integration in windows. For example, try installing magic-wormhole on windows, and then do the same on linux. Etc.

 

I think the popularity of Microsoft is a similar story to the popularity of Starbucks and McDonalds. Although all three are extremely popular, they are all the lowest quality available.

 

1) Report: Consumers say McDonald's has the worst quality fast food https://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/report-consumers-say-mcdonalds-has-the-worst-quality-fast-food

2) The shocking reason you should never order this at starbucks--it completely stops your metabolism. https://www.shefinds.com/collections/starbucks-drink-ruins-metabolism/#slide-1

 

Microsoft is similar to the two companies above. These three companies give the lowest quality in their products that can be found. 
And Microsoft has built their empire completely on abuse. For example, this type of strategy:
Embrace, extend, and extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish

[Arika]

9 hours ago, Alexander Pushkin said:

-big snip-

So again, another wall of text that barely addressing what i was saying regarding Linux and just going right back to shitting on windows.

 

Your main example of things not working on windows was a single webcam, and i do believe i said:

22 hours ago, Arika S said:

Windows is a monolith of support that can just grab generic drivers for 99% of devices and run them perfectly without any user interaction.

this 1 device would fit into that 1% of devices. however it doesn't seem to be a problem with the generic drivers anyway, since i would hope that people had downloaded the official drivers directly from the lifecam page before posting, so that example is irrelevant to what i said.

 

Quote

Embrace, extend, and extinguish

i fucking hate people who bring this up, last time it was legitimately used was, was far as i can see, 2001. 20 years ago. 20. Very different company and very different leadership, unless you believe that no-one is entitled to change? If you're going to hold things like thing against companies then you must hate every single one of them, because no company in the history of anything that is "top dog" got there by completely pure means.

[orangecat]

On 10/2/2021 at 4:56 PM, NZgamer said:

Arch is a cool distro, but I don't think it's right for this challenge. As OP said, the distro choice is important as we want to encourage people to switch to Linux and my concern is that the CLI installer could scare new users away. Ultimately we want to show LTT viewers that Linux is a beginner friendly OS that they can use instead of Windows with distros that make everything easy.

My point was more that if Linus the person is personally going to or is interested in switching to Linux then he may as well get used to using arguably one of the best power user distros out there as I know Linus would love to have his ultimate setup that Windows could never make possible but if all he does is use Linux like Windows by just always accepting how the next version will be then I think he would miss out on what he otherwise might have really gotten into.

[Slipfox]

25 minutes ago, Kilobytez95 said:

My point was more that if Linus the person is personally going to or is interested in switching to Linux then he may as well get used to using arguably one of the best power user distros out there as I know Linus would love to have his ultimate setup that Windows could never make possible but if all he does is use Linux like Windows by just always accepting how the next version will be then I think he would miss out on what he otherwise might have really gotten into.

But Linus is not a power user lol. Judging by the latest WAN show episode he's very clearly far from ready to daily drive arch.

 

Edit: And that's not like, me trying to be an elitist jerk or whatever. He's just legitimately not at that level where you'll be able to maintain an arch system regularly.

[norgaladir]

1 hour ago, Slipfox said:

Edit: And that's not like, me trying to be an elitist jerk or whatever. He's just legitimately not at that level where you'll be able to maintain an arch system regularly.

And even if you're at a level where you are able to, it takes time and you have to enjoy doing tinkering at that level. Even Linus Torvalds himself just runs Fedora because that's what he's familiar with and doesn't want to mess with broken installs.

 

However, I also see people recommending stuff like Ubuntu LTS/Mint (based on LTS), which should be also be no for any desktop user with new hardware (like Linus I presume) since that is now on the opposite side of the spectrum from arch, and can be just as difficult and time consuming to get working in this case. Same goes for any beginner distro that makes itself "easier" by hiding stuff from the user, and with smaller, more "stable" repos, doing anything more than browsing the web/basic tasks becomes a chore.

 

The more mainstream ones like Ubuntu (non LTS), Pop, Manjaro, etc seem to strike a pretty good, but not perfect balance, which is why I'm excited for the new Steam OS since the Deck will have to be consumer friendly and Valve is a large enough company with the resources to do so for arch. I'm strongly considering making Steam OS the daily driver on my desktop when it's released, I love the idea of having a rolling release with access to the AUR, on a relatively bug free, easy to use distro. It's mildly annoying installing something on Ubuntu if it's something not in the repos/ppa, or you need or want a newer version of something and are stuck waiting 6 months.

[Alexander Pushkin]

16 hours ago, Arika S said:

So again, another wall of text that barely addressing what i was saying regarding Linux and just going right back to shitting on windows.

My post was actually all about your comment. You find it disturbing that people want you to use their distro and that these persons are disappointed when their distro is not preferred by other users. If users and developers didn't care about this, then you've got a group of fatalistic users and developers who don't try to be the best at anything and don't give a damn about the operating system. Those things are intertwined. That's why I'm trying to clarify what the alternative (Microsoft) actually means.

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Windows is a monolith of support that can just grab generic drivers for 99% of devices and run them perfectly without any user interaction.

These are literally your words.. How come this 'monolith of support' can't even support the most popular Microsoft webcam ever? In addition, I've also provided five other sources that confirm that Microsoft support for countless devices is laughably poor or non-existent. 

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however it doesn't seem to be a problem with the generic drivers anyway, since i would hope that people had downloaded the official drivers directly from the lifecam page before posting, so that example is irrelevant to what i said.

Can you give me a link to the Microsoft website where people can download the windows10 driver of this webcam? I'm very curious about where these 'official drivers' are supposedly located in your head.

 

When Microsoft fails to make their homemade and most popular webcam (sold in just about every country on earth with a 'windows10 compatible' sticker) work with their own windows10 operating system, how can they offer '99% support' so to speak? I mean, even the most obscure operating systems like FreeBSD support this camera, how can Microsoft support be taken seriously by a normal person? Isn't there an extremely high probability that their support is nothing more than a joke in reality?

Let's explore the topic further to find out whether it is a unique event for Microsoft support, or rather their typical support. We will now take a closer look at the Microsoft Lifecam Studio.

 

Windows 10 - Lifecam Studio still not working after latest update of Windows 10 https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/windows-10-lifecam-studio-still-not-working-after/38dc49dc-b350-4e1d-be55-d6a65547a705

Microsoft LifeCam Studio consistently stops working due to Code 43 Errors https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/microsoft-lifecam-studio-consistently-stops/02398733-d660-44e8-9e3b-ba313abef9a8

Microsoft LifeCam Studio Webcam Randomly Stops Working https://www.windowsphoneinfo.com/threads/microsoft-lifecam-studio-webcam-randomly-stops-working.580686/

Microsoft LifeCam Studio intermittent freezing https://www.windowsphoneinfo.com/threads/microsoft-lifecam-studio-intermittent-freezing.549166/

WebCam Not Working https://www.windowsphoneinfo.com/threads/webcam-not-working.578858/

LifeCam Studio not recognized by computer upon restarting https://www.windowsphoneinfo.com/threads/lifecam-studio-not-recognized-by-computer-upon-restarting.563159/

Lifecam Studio Flicker, Horizontal Lines https://www.windowsphoneinfo.com/threads/lifecam-studio-flicker-horizontal-lines.585397/

Webcam not working: 0XA00F4244 (0XC00DABED) https://www.tenforums.com/drivers-hardware/173223-webcam-not-working-0xa00f4244-0xc00dabed.html

LifeCam Studio not working in WIndows 10 Camera App https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/lifecam-studio-not-working-in-windows-10-camera/b36b1b91-0bb7-4d38-a1dd-3ff5ec07193b

 

Linux runs on watches, phones, set-top boxes, blu-ray players, scads of IoT devices, wall warts, Raspberry Pis and such, embedded systems, PCs, workstations, mainframes, supercomputers, and lots more hardware. Linux contains drivers for most hardware in the kernel. When you install a GNU/Linux distro, the kernel talks to your hardware and dynamically loads the drivers as “modules”. It can do this on systems ranging from the world’s fastest supercomputers and Google servers, to the phone in my pocket or the watch on my wrist. I’ve read that the Linux kernel is the most used piece of software in the world, I’m inclined to believe this, and also I don’t think it would be possible without tons of hardware support.

 

1) Today, Windows is just starting to appear on the very prevalent ARM based devices, and often only Windows “Apps” from the Windows App store can run on these, with ZERO legacy support.

2) When many people upgraded to Windows 10, they found hardware on or connected to their computer with no drivers available, and MAYBE if your lucky you could manually install drivers yourself.

3) As reported by Neowin, the Windows 11 Readiness Audit revealed that over 55% don't use a supported CPU to run the OS. 

 

So it seems very likely that your statements only have a humorous value. 

 

Just like Steve Ballmer also only had a humorous value in his life. When Munich switched to Linux, Ballmer specially interrupted his ski trip to visit the city mayor Christian Ude. Then Ballmer did a little dance for Christian Ude. When his dance didn't work, he started lowering the prices of the Microsoft software. But Christian Ude then said to Ballmer: why should I pay for your software when it is inferior to free software in every way? Aren't you just a thief?

 

And, of course, Ballmer wasn't quite sure what to say about this, as it is indeed true that he is charging money for software that is inferior to free software in every way.

[Diffracted]

I've been playing around in zorinOS a week or so and I really like it. For someone who is new to linux and used to windows I would say it might just be the best option. The negatives are nonspecific, meaning what I don't like about it are issues that all distros have.

[Slipfox]

2 hours ago, Diffracted said:

I've been playing around in zorinOS a week or so and I really like it. For someone who is new to linux and used to windows I would say it might just be the best option. The negatives are nonspecific, meaning what I don't like about it are issues that all distros have.

honestly, the one thing preventing me from having a positive opinion of Zorin is the fact that it's closed-source and paid. For most users that doesn't affect anything but it irks the FOSS-lover in me.

[Synobal]

I actually swapped to Linux thanks to this challenge, I chose Fedora the KDE spin, and not for the meme. I've used linux before but the last time it was my daily driver for my desk top was 2007-2009ish maybe? Boy have things changed the user experience is so much more mature, and gaming is just amazing compared to where it used to be. Hardest thing was using Antony's tutorial for NVFBC on PopOS and making it work in Fedora, that and the damn Nvidia drivers all together.

Overall though Fedora 9/10 user experience.

[SkaterDudeBro41]

4 hours ago, Slipfox said:

honestly, the one thing preventing me from having a positive opinion of Zorin is the fact that it's closed-source and paid. For most users that doesn't affect anything but it irks the FOSS-lover in me.

I don't believe this is actually the case. While they are charging money for the "Ultimate" edition of ZorinOS, it seems like they provide the source here: https://zorin.com/about/#source-code

 

In theory, you could avoid paying by grabbing the appropriate packages and compiling everything yourself.

[Ethanol6]

On 10/2/2021 at 4:00 AM, Conan Kudo said:

As someone who uses and helps develop Fedora Linux, I was really sad and hurt to hear @LinusTechcompletely laugh off Fedora Linux as if it was ludicrous. As one of the folks who helps develop Fedora Linux and uses it as a daily driver specifically for desktop and gaming, I was really shocked to hear that neither Linus nor @Slick would even consider it.

 

In the past year alone (with Fedora 33 and 34), we've done a ton of work around the desktop and gaming:

• Btrfs by default with zstd transparent compression to simplify storage and improve I/O performance
• Swap on ZRAM, desktop process resource reservation, and adding systemd-oomd to improve responsiveness in situations with low memory and high memory pressure
• DXVK for Fedora Wine to match Proton for non-Steam Windows games (and non-games!)
• Adding thermald to improve thermal and Intel CPU performance for ultrabooks and other laptops
• Routing all audio through PipeWire to simplify audio and improve the quality of life for pro-audio setups

And with the upcoming Fedora 35 (releasing at the end of the month, beta out now), we've got a bit more in the pipe:

• Adding power-profiles-daemon to extend battery life and enable easy power management flexibility
• Using a shim library to have old SDL1 games use SDL2 to improve game performance and compatibility with newer technologies
• Easier user third-party repository enablement to easily access third-party software like Steam, Google Chrome, and the NVIDIA driver
• Select Flatpaks from Flathub made available so stuff like Zoom, Discord, etc. are all just a click away

Even with that, there's more coming down the pipe in the future, as Red Hat and the community work with folks like Valve, NVIDIA, and others to make the desktop and gaming awesome. Christian Schaller (the manager for the Red Hat Desktop team), wrote a blog post about what his team is working on for improving Fedora Workstation. He's written plenty of blog posts about the state of things and where his team is working to move things.

I wish they would consider using Fedora Linux, because I think we've done a stellar job trying to make an awesome easy to use Linux desktop and I think they'd love the stuff we've done to make gaming on Linux awesome.

I was surprised too, though Luke mentioned in a later video that they use Fedora but don't like hats. I thought Fedora was an easy choice. Pipewire by default makes sound easier to setup, you can get Davinci Resolve to work, really new Kernel for the new hardware they are constantly trying out and the knowledge base is huge. Also, Wendel from Level1 Tech uses Fedora or Fedora Rawhide to test out all the latest hardware. Somehow that wasn't on anyones mind.

 

Thanks for everything you do Conan, it benefits everyone!

[jde3]

On 10/11/2021 at 4:23 PM, Alexander Pushkin said:

I think rather that the biggest problem with windows10 is on full display here. What the preceding pages show is that people have different preferences about many different details. With windows10, many of these things are decided by a company that often doesn't have the best intentions with their users. With Linux you don't have these problems and your freedom of choice is not completely restricted. I don't think many people have made any accusations yet, when I look at most of the previous posts. So it seems you are exaggerating.

 

I have personally used Linux for over 10 years and I have also been using FreeBSD for several years now. I haven't used windows or ms office for over 15 years meanwhile. Except at work. And there are some insights that I have that I would like to share. For people who have no experience with Linux and are making the switch (and planning to game) there are only three suitable choices in my opinion: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/users/statistics It is simply more intelligent to choose a system based on Arch (eg EndeavorOS) or on Ubuntu (eg KDE neon). Why? Both have the best support for games, with other systems (Solus, Fedora, OpenSUSE, etc) you are usually more likely to get a game not working. (this is my deep experience)

 

Suppose you are not a technical user, and for some reasons you do not wish to use an Arch or Ubuntu based system. Then the first system you use should be OpenSUSE. Not eg Fedora or Solus or Debian. Why? Many people are like my sister. My sister has used a system all her life where she just has to read some text and click her mouse. So my sister never became familiar with a terminal. As wonderful as a terminal is for people like myself, most people never learned to work with it in their schooling. OpenSUSE has YaST, so my sister won't have to use a terminal that she hates. Furthermore, KDE Plasma is also more advanced and efficient than Gnome and it is more familiar to Windows users. And OpenSUSE has one of the best KDE Plasma implementations out there.

 

So my recommendation for beginners would be the following:
1) Person with very little technical knowledge: An operating system based on the latest Ubuntu-LTS edition.
2) Person with average technical knowledge: OpenSUSE or an easy operating system based on Arch Linux (or the above option)
3) Person who is good at configuring software: OpenSUSE or an operating system based on Arch Linux

 

For desktops, I would recommend KDE Plasma and Xfce. Not Gnome. Although Red Hat is one of the best software companies in the world, I have to say that I have a hunch that they premeditately make their desktop software less good and advanced than the macOS and windows10 UI. Simply because they don't want to compete with Microsoft and Apple for the desktop market.

 

Are the three operating systems above the best systems for everyone and for every purpose? No, of course not, but they are the three best options for novice Linux users who want to play games.

 

Personally, I think FreeBSD is the best operating system technically. But I also understand that many people don't have the time or skills to work well with it. And because so few people use it, it will also be less used for gaming and have less support for it. But the platform itself is the best gaming platform. Just look at the PS5 whose operating system is a derivative of FreeBSD. Beyond that, there are a few other important things that FreeBSD is technically best at:

https://long-zhou.github.io/2012/12/21/epoll-vs-kqueue.html

https://redbyte.eu/en/blog/postgresql-benchmark-freebsd-centos-ubuntu-debian-opensuse/

 

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?item=netperf-bsd-linux&num=3&page=article

 

And then there's Jails (much more secure than the popular Docker containers) and bhyve (the fastest boot times for a VM) and the fact that FreeBSD has the best ZFS implementation of all systems. Aside from Jails and bhyve, ZFS alone is sufficient reason to claim that FreeBSD is technically the most advanced operating system:

https://www.scribd.com/document/3733733/Solaris-ZFS-The-Most-Advanced-File-System-on-the-Planet

https://www.eurovps.com/blog/why-zfs-file-system-rocks/

Well said sir, all the things. I can also tell you why FreeBSD is so much more efficient as a webserver in the video. it's probably because of the superior event polling in kqueue.

 

I'd have to say that Illumos is technically the most advanced OS.. by feature checklist. Sun was very far ahead at one time. However FreeBSD isn't far off and It's my personal go-to for servers. A lot of people here really wouldn't probably understand the reasons why or the OS design of them but that isn't really important.. what is important is they are all free and people can chose what suits their needs best. FreeBSD caters to the server crowd and it's probably a good thing they haven't mucked it all up with desktop and mobile stuff.

 

OpenSuSE is a good and often forgotten distro from conversations. I do like Gnome tho.. The difference between Gnome and KDE/Plasma is a philosophical one.

 

Gnome has a philosophy of minimalism (not in graphics quality or looks but in tasks) If you right click an item in Gnome you will get only a minimal list of options and things you can do with that file. The most common things you want to do.

 

Where as Plasma has a philosophy of the power user. If you right click an object in KDE you get every action the system supports doing with that object.

 

Gnome's idea is to get out of your way and be simple where as KDE is granting you as much power as possible.. neither are wrong or bad.. just different. The world needs both of them.

 

Other desktop's I like are XFCE and actually Deepin (DDE) believe it or not I find it pretty charming and simple I just wish it was more configurable. (and that it ran on FreeBSD )
Take a look:

 

[Alexander Pushkin]

9 hours ago, jde3 said:

I'd have to say that Illumos is technically the most advanced OS.. by feature checklist. Sun was very far ahead at one time. However FreeBSD isn't far off and It's my personal go-to for servers. A lot of people here really wouldn't probably understand the reasons why or the OS design of them but that isn't really important.. what is important is they are all free and people can chose what suits their needs best. FreeBSD caters to the server crowd and it's probably a good thing they haven't mucked it all up with desktop and mobile stuff.

In certain areas I will believe you. But I don't think Illumos is more advanced in general. Linux app (and games) support is much better in FreeBSD. Illumos will not have a linux-steam-utils package anyway, which makes a world of difference for gamers. I think FreeBSD is often much faster in netperf than Illumos. So a faster network stack. FreeBSD has a more advanced firewall. And FreeBSD's audio stack is more advanced than Illumos's and actually unique in that FreeBSD has made an independent implementation of OSS4 that has quite a few features.

 

A musician even made an article two days ago about how amazingly capable FreeBSD is for recording live and producing music: https://meka.rs/blog/2021/10/12/freebsd-audio/

 

I must say that I have been using FreeBSD + Xfce + ZFS for almost four years, mainly as a desktop OS and daily driver. I can't imagine anything better for me personally. I find many things in FreeBSD just more time-saving than how these things work in other systems. I've spent less time on system administration than probably 99.9% of macOS, Linux, and Windows 10 users, and I use a lot of different apps and some games too.

 

For audio I use Audio Technica ATH-M20X headphones. I wanted to play everything in bit-perfect audio. Please look up how to do this in Linux, macOS and windows10, to let all audio apps (eg mpv, DeaDBeeF, Firefox, etc) play music in bit-perfect mode. You will see that it is not so easy to do this in windows10 unless for one specific app like Foobar2000 which is not the same at all.

 

In FreeBSD I had to change a single and easy setting: https://i.ibb.co/N3LbmZW/Screenshot-2020-11-04-01-34-32.png The sound quality I now have in YouTube videos is really mind-boggling. In recent years I have always been shocked at how bad the audio is in the people around me who use windows10. I'm shocked how you can listen to and enjoy this kind of crappy audio quality. It's also part of the difference in hardware, but the difference in software is probably the biggest difference.

 

I don't play too many games on FreeBSD. Mainly Dota 2, CS: GO and 0 A.D. But I must say that I always manage to easily beat 95% of the windows10 gamers in these three multiplayer games. And I don't use any powerful hardware either, just an old i3-3240 CPU, a GTX 1050 2GB and an EVO 850 500GB SSD.

 

0 A.D. actually opens in 2 seconds, so the time I click on the icon until it opens completely: 2 seconds. (By the way, GIMP also opens very quickly: 4 seconds. Guess how slow it would be on windows10 with my particular hardware?) And also compare that to Age of Empires: Definitive Edition, that loads much slower on my hardware. And 0 A.D. also has much more modern graphics, and mechanics that have obviously been given more thought. Additionally, Age of Empires has many of those maps that are full of bugs, and where you get a tactical advantage from where you start in the map: https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Nile_Delta  0 A.D. is more like chess. Age of Empires which is popular with windows users is in comparison more like a child's game. I find this amazing that a free and open source game is objectively better than one of the most iconic windows games in many ways, and it is reality.

 

I've also seen the new video where Linus says he encountered a lot of problems in his first test with Linux. I want to say some important facts about this:

1) Suppose a child grew up using only Linux/BSD. Then he will also experience (many) problems as an adult when switching to windows10. I have more trouble working with windows10 than with FreeBSD, although FreeBSD is much 'harder' than eg Ubuntu. So you will often find the system you use much easier, until you have used the other system as much. Only then will you be able to make a fair comparison.
2) From experience I know that windows10 is often found 'easier' by users in the beginning, and Linux/BSD may be a bit more difficult. But after one or two years of use, you will see a big change in this initial impression. The people who have used Linux or BSD will all be able to easily accomplish 99% of the day-to-day tasks for which you use a PC. While the windows10 users regularly get completely stuck with the most basic tasks that you do with a PC.

[jde3]

3 hours ago, Alexander Pushkin said:

In certain areas I will believe you. But I don't think Illumos is more advanced in general. Linux app (and games) support is much better in FreeBSD. Illumos will not have a linux-steam-utils package anyway, which makes a world of difference for gamers. I think FreeBSD is often much faster in netperf than Illumos. So a faster network stack. FreeBSD has a more advanced firewall. And FreeBSD's audio stack is more advanced than Illumos's and actually unique in that FreeBSD has made an independent implementation of OSS4 that has quite a few features.

Illumos's "linuxulator" is better than FreeBSD's but Illumos' is tied to zones. So you need a LX-Zone however it can run steam and I have seen people do that.. Linux has a lot of strange system calls that are unnessary or undesired on FreeBSD's kernel but I think now they have decided to add those in a module (so you can taint FreeBSD's kernel with useless linux system calls if you want now in module form) FreeBSD maybe faster in network (and probably in general) but Illumos has a more complete virtual stack in CrossBow. FreeBSD does have PF but Illumos has been porting it over. The Audio stack I think you got me.
 

3 hours ago, Alexander Pushkin said:

A musician even made an article two days ago about how amazingly capable FreeBSD is for recording live and producing music: https://meka.rs/blog/2021/10/12/freebsd-audio/

 

I must say that I have been using FreeBSD + Xfce + ZFS for almost four years, mainly as a desktop OS and daily driver. I can't imagine anything better for me personally. I find many things in FreeBSD just more time-saving than how these things work in other systems. I've spent less time on system administration than probably 99.9% of macOS, Linux, and Windows 10 users, and I use a lot of different apps and some games too.

 

Yeah when you live for a long time with Jails, PF, ZFS etc you tend to learn to do all kinds of tricks and cool things. It's a lot of power most OS's don't have.. (MacOS has some of it.. you can use ZFS on MacOS and MacOS also has PF burred under the hood) the one thing I'd like to see is TimeSlider come back to get Time Machine functionality in a GUI on ZFS. -- Fun fact, Time Machine on MacOS was originally written with ZFS in mind.

 

It's funny that all modern Unixes use this stuff EXCEPT Linux.   In Linux it's like bad knock off land. Like you're in a Chinese mall and everywhere you look it's oh so close but not the real thing.

 

I do do audio work from time to time, but I have never tried on FreeBSD. (usually I want Audour) - I've found FreeBSD's audio to be quite simple but maybe that is a good thing.

[Alexander Pushkin]

8 hours ago, jde3 said:

Illumos's "linuxulator" is better than FreeBSD's but Illumos' is tied to zones. So you need a LX-Zone however it can run steam and I have seen people do that.

From what I've already seen of the LX-Zone configuration, FreeBSD's linuxulator is more user-friendly and easier to configure. The linuxulator in FreeBSD again has seen a lot of improvements in FreeBSD 13. Compatibility isn't always perfect in LX-Zone as far as I've seen either, so I think they may be close in this area, but I haven't worked with LX Zone. To open steam in FreeBSD all I had to do was pkg install linux-steam-utils. After this I typed 'steam' into a terminal. It wouldn't boot the first time and gave an error. Then I looked up the error message and saw that I still had to install a certain nvidia package or library. After installing this nvidia library, steam ran. I don't think Illumos will run steam as easily.

Quote

Linux has a lot of strange system calls that are unnessary or undesired on FreeBSD's kernel but I think now they have decided to add those in a module (so you can taint FreeBSD's kernel with useless linux system calls if you want now in module form)

I've been playing Dota 2 on the same system since beta, so I've been playing it for 7 or 8 years. The experience on windows10 and Linux was largely similar on my hardware. Perhaps Linux was slightly better in terms of fps. But neither were a stable experience. On both Windows10 and Linux I often had disconnects during ranked games, and then I couldn't reconnect, so I had to restart my PC. Then I've played several hundred games on FreeBSD, and I've never had a disconnect. Now it could also just be that Valve's new Dota 2 servers have become more stable. But the chance is slim.

 

Then the speed of the game. In FreeBSD, I noticed that there were no more hitches that I always had when transitioning between the menus in the main menu. While this always ran rough on Linux and Windows 10 in the past on the same hardware. I was able to set the settings exactly to higher graphics settings than before.

And my in-game ping in FreeBSD was often around 11ms, which is a good ping for Dota 2. I often asked my sister what her ping was on her windows10 computer with an i7-8700k + RX 580 8GB. But she never wanted to say it.

Quote

MacOS has some of it.. you can use ZFS on MacOS and MacOS also has PF burred under the hood

MacOS is a very sad sight compared to FreeBSD as far as I'm concerned. Since they used the M1 chip, their derivative of bhyve no longer works. And they can no longer use Docker containers, because that relies on xhyve. The macOS kernel is slower than FreeBSD's kernel because Apple chose a hybrid kernel because it's easier to support (less work for developers). Then there's the OpenGL performance of macOS in apps like Houdini. 

Some Basic macOS 10.13 vs. Ubuntu 17.10 OpenGL Gaming Tests https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=mbp-1013-gaming&num=2