Mozilla has defeated Microsoft’s default browser protections in Windows

[Mark Kaine]

13 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

think you are missing the general point that Windows 11 appears as though it won't have the "Default Browser" option under the setting...rather it's a per file association access.  That will mean that in Windows 11, to make it the default browser you will effectively have to go through and change multiple extensions.

I know, but we were talking about 10, with the outlook,  on my part at least,  that it won't be as bad in the final / retail version of 11,  at least i think so because this would be anti competitive/ illegal.  Again.

 

13 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

I understand that it's a security thing, but Microsoft could have made it so that it pops up with a warning to the user, and the user can just click yes or cancel to let the application set the defaults

yeah, i think that's the whole point of the tpm stuff, they want to lock the os down as hard as possible... it's going to be fun , isn't it! 

[KaitouX]

5 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

While I agree in principal, I can't help wonder how big the population of people who "aren't well versed in computers" and "want to change the defualt browser" is.

Like already mentioned, Chrome market share kinda shows it to be decently big.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

Yes, of course but it sends you directly to the right place, and I dont remember any "warnings", hence I'm saying this is just seems arguing over semantics, its not "impossible" or even close because the option is right there in Chrome. 

But it is impossible for Chrome to set itself as the default browser. Redirecting you to a page where you can manually set it as the default browser is not the same as setting itself as the default. Call it "semantics" if you want, but it is a very important difference. Microsoft deliberately makes it more difficult to change to Chrome than it does changing to Edge. They aren't doing that just for fun. They are doing it because they know it will cause some users to not change browser. The more friction you add, the less people bother.

And yes, it does bring up an additional page begging you to not switch browser when you try and change to something else. It looks like this:

 

You can try it yourself if you don't believe me. Try and switch browser back and fourth. Also, please note how they made the "keep Edge" button really large and bright, while the "switch" button is gray on gray and has no borders, to make it harder to see.

 

 

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

So you're saying Edge works differently and doesn't have to open windows settings? That would definitely be a small difference, but seems really minor IF so.

Yes, it works differently.

If you click "Make default" in Edge, then it just sets itself as the default. It does not have to bring up the settings page, nor does it bug you to not change browser when you have already pressed "change".

 

 

Setting your default browser to Edge = a single button click inside Edge.

Setting your default browser to Chrome = Click on "set as default", wait for a different window to appear, click on change browser, select Chrome, click the small gray on gray text that says "switch anyway".

 

You might say it's small, but it's still a dick move from Microsoft.

 

 

2 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

Edit: did some digging,  from February 2020:

 

Edge couldn't even do that at all apparently,  so worse than chrome:

 

-snip-

 

"Microsoft Edge got updates again. Once the beta channel on the 81.0.416.20 and once the canary on the version 82.0.439.0. The interesting thing about the Canary is that they have now begun to add the “Default browser” section to the settings. Over time, this will also be adopted in the stable version. So far this function was missing"

Old news. That was back when the new Edge wasn't even being rolled out to everyone (they started doing that in June 2020). It has been over a year and a half since Edge has been able to set itself as the default browser with a single click, from within the browser itself.

 

 

2 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

I think you are missing the general point that Windows 11 appears as though it won't have the "Default Browser" option under the setting...rather it's a per file association access.  That will mean that in Windows 11, to make it the default browser you will effectively have to go through and change multiple extensions.

Well, this thread is about Windows 10, and Mark and I have been talking about Windows 10 so far. So I don't think it's fair to use Windows 11's as an argument in this debate. It's for sure evidence of Microsoft being very anti-competitive when it comes to browsers, but at least it's not an issue on Windows 10 (yet).

 

2 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

The other issue is that if Microsoft is allowed doing it for their browser, other browsers should be allowed doing it (without putting the user to the menu). 

This is the issue I got. Microsoft should not give themselves special permissions and advantages other developers aren't allowed to have. I want equal playing fields.

I also want Microsoft to show some respect to their users. If a user clicks "change default browser", then Microsoft should just shut up and change the browser. It shouldn't go "pretty please, give Edge a change. It's good, we promise. Are you reeeeally sure you want to change?" and I don't want ads in my OS either. 

 

 

2 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

I understand that it's a security thing, but Microsoft could have made it so that it pops up with a warning to the user, and the user can just click yes or cancel to let the application set the defaults

It's not a security thing though. Like I pointed out earlier, no other OS does this and no other OS have any issues with malicious programs hijacking the default browser. iOS doesn't do it. Android doesn't do it. GNU/Linux doesn't do it, and no Windows version before 10 did it either.

This is a made up security issue that Microsoft has solved, and they have done it in the way that benefits themselves the most.

[wanderingfool2]

17 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

This is the issue I got. Microsoft should not give themselves special permissions and advantages other developers aren't allowed to have. I want equal playing fields.

I also want Microsoft to show some respect to their users. If a user clicks "change default browser", then Microsoft should just shut up and change the browser. It shouldn't go "pretty please, give Edge a change. It's good, we promise. Are you reeeeally sure you want to change?" and I don't want ads in my OS either. 

Yes, I do agree for the most part with this.  There is too much of a nagware with Window 10.  I do think there should be a prompt (similar to how OSX does it) if an user clicks change browser...but that is because I remember the time when programs would install themselves and takeover all the defaults (and then you would have to go in and revert the changes)...but yes I agree with what you are saying though that Microsoft should have to be playing by the same rulebook in terms of things like this (and I am betting that if they were to follow the rules they would likely have come up with the solution similar to OSX).

 

24 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

It's not a security thing though. Like I pointed out earlier, no other OS does this and no other OS have any issues with malicious programs hijacking the default browser.

The old way in prior Windows was a security issue, I've had to fix a few computers that fell issue to hijacking of default programs, but like I said...they could have done a simple prompt to fix that issue (instead of their more convoluted way of forcing a program to open the default Apps page) [Which by the looks of things is what Apple does]

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, wanderingfool2 said:

 The old way in prior Windows was a security issue, I've had to fix a few computers that fell issue to hijacking of default programs, but like I said...they could have done a simple prompt to fix that issue (instead of their more convoluted way of forcing a program to open the default Apps page) [Which by the looks of things is what Apple does]

But if it's a security issue, why don't they enforce similar things for other programs? 

You talk about default program hijacking, but Microsoft never implemented any protection against that for most formats. It's specifically browsers they are cracking down on, and I don't buy it for a second that it was a major security issue.

 

Again, no other OSes does this. If it was a security issue why doesn't all OSes have it? Only the OS that desperately wants you to use their browser somehow thinks easily changing from the default is a security risk... 

[wanderingfool2]

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

But if it's a security issue, why don't they enforce similar things for other programs? 

You talk about default program hijacking, but Microsoft never implemented any protection against that for most formats. It's specifically browsers they are cracking down on, and I don't buy it for a second that it was a major security issue.

 

Again, no other OSes does this. If it was a security issue why doesn't all OSes have it? Only the OS that desperately wants you to use their browser somehow thinks easily changing from the default is a security risk... 

They do though.  VLC it prompts you to go to default apps setting to set it as the media player.  I can't really think of any program that is allowed to set itself as the default (except in the cases where there isn't already a file associations with it, at which point then it's permitted to)  All the programs I've used at least have pushed me to the file association in Windows 10

[LAwLz]

16 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

They do though.  VLC it prompts you to go to default apps setting to set it as the media player.  I can't really think of any program that is allowed to set itself as the default (except in the cases where there isn't already a file associations with it, at which point then it's permitted to)  All the programs I've used at least have pushed me to the file association in Windows 10

Video player, browser and a handful of other things are the only ones not allowed to set themselves as the default.

Again, if it really was a security risk, then why does no other OS do it in the very locked down way Windows 10 does? Surely you have to agree that it benefits Microsoft to make it as difficult as possible, and they have heavily tried to push users to Edge.

[wanderingfool2]

52 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Video player, browser and a handful of other things are the only ones not allowed to set themselves as the default.

Again, if it really was a security risk, then why does no other OS do it in the very locked down way Windows 10 does? Surely you have to agree that it benefits Microsoft to make it as difficult as possible, and they have heavily tried to push users to Edge.

If you read what I said, the way I was saying it should be done appears to be the Apple methodology.  The way Windows had it prior W10 was a security risk, I've seen the outcomes of it, but again in the same sentence I said that they should be implementing it with a pop-up that just confirms the change when requested by the program.  It's a safe and easy way to implement it (and by the looks of it how Apple does things)

 

Just because I say I understand something is done for security, doesn't mean that it is the correct way (which is why I mentioned the alternative better solution)...but Windows 10 way is better than the prior experiences where it was a free for all.

[Mark Kaine]

2 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

They do though.  VLC it prompts you to go to default apps setting to set it as the media player.  I can't really think of any program that is allowed to set itself as the default (except in the cases where there isn't already a file associations with it, at which point then it's permitted to)  All the programs I've used at least have pushed me to the file association in Windows 10

Exactly... including Edge,  if you want to make it default  - as far i can tell. *someone try that out, my edge is near inoperable (very old version) I sure as heck arent going to try setting it as default, oof...

 

On that note, Windows 10 never randomly asked me to make edge my default browser,  however it keeps asking if I want to use / "try" their movies app instead of WMP... kinda annoying af as WMP is obviously much superior.  (And both are Microsoft apps lol) 

[wanderingfool2]

6 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

Exactly... including Edge,  if you want to make it default  - as far i can tell

No, that is wrong.  On Edge, if you say set as default browser it does so without any additional prompts or without putting you to the Window 10 Default Apps setting page.  It really is a one stop shop there.

 

Further, for FireFox when it included a button it had to open Windows Default App, you had to then click on Firefox, you then are confronted on "Try using Edge" instead (with the prompt to use Edge being the big blue button and the "switch anyways" is a hyperlink blue text underneath the button).  In this case, Microsoft needs to play by the same rules it is imposing on other browser makers.  No reverting back to the classical IE days where they use undocumented/hidden API's in order to gain advantages over the competitor

[jagdtigger]

19 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

No reverting back to the classical IE days where they use undocumented/hidden API's in order to gain advantages over the competitor

Call it a conspiracy theory or a hunch but i think that is precisely what they want. 1st forcibly establish dominance then add proprietary stuff which gets used in corporate webapps (maybe even outside of those) once again establishing an IE like lock-in.....

[LAwLz]

7 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

If you read what I said, the way I was saying it should be done appears to be the Apple methodology.  The way Windows had it prior W10 was a security risk, I've seen the outcomes of it, but again in the same sentence I said that they should be implementing it with a pop-up that just confirms the change when requested by the program.  It's a safe and easy way to implement it (and by the looks of it how Apple does things)

 

Just because I say I understand something is done for security, doesn't mean that it is the correct way (which is why I mentioned the alternative better solution)...but Windows 10 way is better than the prior experiences where it was a free for all.

I disagree that it was a security issue, but I do agree that MacOS's popup would be fair, secure and easy to use.

Also, if I had to guess, 90% of the reason why Microsoft did it this way is because they want to make it harder for users to change from Edge to let's say Chrome. The remaining 10% can be them thinking about security. 

I don't buy for a second that Microsoft thought "this is a really big security issue we need to fix with Windows 10. Oh, the solution we came up with just so happened to make it much more difficult to change from our Edge browser. It was totally not our intention or plan to do that".

[Video Beagle]

16 hours ago, KaitouX said:

Like already mentioned, Chrome market share kinda shows it to be decently big.

Doesn't Chrome having the greater market share thus show this isn't a problem?

[Mark Kaine]

44 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

Doesn't Chrome having the greater market share thus show this isn't a problem?

 

AOL etc also had bigger market share at some point, that didn't stop Microsoft getting fined though (because OS market dominance)

 

Maybe someone can dig up the old ruling,  im not sure what id have to search 

[Lightwreather]

10 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Nice percentage

[Dabombinable]

21 hours ago, Dracarris said:

No it is not when talking about Win11 as it is the equivalent in the Apple word. Your argument is simply flawed as you compare apples with oranges, as others have pointed out, when comparing Win11 with iOS. Your argument

is also very, very constructed to serve your opinion. Here you are comparing personal computing devices of your mom with personal computing devices of people that need to get actual work done.

 

Btw: My mum might not edit spreadsheets on a daily basis, but every now and then text (Word) documents, which is where smartphones already are a very bad fit. I personally still can't think of any people that don't own even an entry-level laptop and use "personal computing devices" to solely

, but if so, these people anyways barely have to install any third-party apps, especially none that cost money, which makes the whole sideloading discussion obsolete. Worded differently: Your mom doesn't need a laptop but wants to use an alternative app store on her phone. Sounds reasonable and legit.

7 years ago my Mum was able to use her Asus Transformer Prime TF201 as a full on laptop - even though she had an Asus U38N as her actual laptop. You need to realise that for nearly 10 years now, when you talk about phones and productivity, you have devices far more like traditional laptops that run the very same software as a mobile phone.

 

Windows or Android, trying to excuse blatantly anti-competitive and monopolistic behaviour is to be blunt - lunacy. Especially when MS have already lost a lawsuit over IE and Windows 9X for doing the same very thing (just not has heavy handed as with W10 and W11).

[KaitouX]

6 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

Doesn't Chrome having the greater market share thus show this isn't a problem?

Considering the speed Edge have been gaining market share, I would say it's a problem. They doubled their market share in a year, which likely not by coincidence was one year that Microsoft was more aggressive pushing Edge, including the forced install of the new version, having fullscreen ads asking to make Edge the default and pinning it to the taskbar by itself.

I'm sure the chromium version didn't increase the market share only due to that, as there are people that actually like it, but I doubt Microsoft pushing it didn't have a significant effect. And regardless of market share this type of thing is something I would consider a clear abuse of their position as the leading desktop OS.

[Video Beagle]

On 9/16/2021 at 11:18 AM, KaitouX said:

They doubled their market share in a year, which likely not by coincidence was one year that Microsoft was more aggressive pushing Edge

But isn't that also the same time they killed explorer or whatever the thing that was pre-edge? (Explorer, right?). Like I remember a year or so ago, they killed whatever the default thing on win 10 was and made it edge....am i remembering right?

 

(look, don't get me wrong..boo edge, yay firefox, which I'm using right now...I'm just not sure this is the big problem, but whatevs)

[KaitouX]

On 9/18/2021 at 11:14 AM, Video Beagle said:

But isn't that also the same time they killed explorer or whatever the thing that was pre-edge? (Explorer, right?). Like I remember a year or so ago, they killed whatever the default thing on win 10 was and made it edge....am i remembering right?

 

(look, don't get me wrong..boo edge, yay firefox, which I'm using right now...I'm just not sure this is the big problem, but whatevs)

They killed Edge, in favor of the Chromium Edge, Edge have been the default since 2016. The original edge was at ~4.5% market share for quite some time, the chromium version is already at almost 9%.