What if everyone had financial education?

[RasmusDC]

25 minutes ago, Wictorian said:

I think it is the other way around. Only people who are not financially educated think capitalism is a bad system. And the ones who are financially educated become rich. So you think people should not be financially educated? That's not really communist. 
 

Why are you so afraid of politics? I agree it is not very pleasant when the debate turns into an argument of yes and no's without points, but everything you say is influenced by politics so you have already crossed the line, but even the forum rules allow going a little bit deeper.

 

It´s actually fun, because i´m not sure i really support that mindset, i did when i was younger, i come from a "fairly" well off family not rich, but well off in Denmark. as a dane, i think i was capitalistic of mindset, i believed than Denmark was heavy taxated, i felt like people that were unemployed were "just sucking" on the rest off us doing hard work..

 

Got educated, had a couple of well off jobs, and i am doing really well, both me and my wife has a healthy income, so we are well off, my wife is financial educated, and i am an educated engineer, with i highly complex advanced position.

 

NOW.. .my mind has change a lot. and to be honest, I am even more into the socialist / Capitalistic system of Denmark, MANY THINGS we do are faulty.. but it is a better system..

 

I believe that all people should have an equal chance.

I also believe that you get more, the more you put into the system, so intelligence, pays of.. so i am 100% okay with people earning money

 

I support a HIGH medium class, no society with wealth only on the TOP percentage work, mostly because consumption is down, money does not move, and create jobs. so it becomes this constant downwards spiral of "creating value" by draining more and more money out of the lower class. (as in the U.S. the medium wealth group is just not a big thing anymore)

 

and i don´t believe fortunes should just stay in families.. it skews opportunity, that you might be 4-5 generation rich, and then suddenly money is placed in the hands of people that do not have the intelligence to actually create it, so it is not earned.

 

i think most fairly intelligent people actually does not support capitalism as shown in the U.S. .. 

 

People like Jeff Bezos, are a this generations "evil" incarnated persons, that in theory just siphons value out of employees, by mistreating them..

 

i also believe that to have the BEST society possible, we need to find all the talent that we have in our pool of people, and move them up, where they can help us improve, to do that, we need equal chance.. so these people can rise to the top, because they have free education and free healthcare, and a social system that supports their family if needed..

 

it´s fun can´t remember the model, but it´s also more and more clear, that in a group of 100 people, 10 people will create 50% of the value, the bigger the group the smaller the percentage will get. if we are a value focused society (and i am not talking CASH here, i am talking development, which f.ex. is the best way to get out of the f.ex. the enviromental issues we have) 

 

old money just keeps the wrong persons at the top.

 

Intelligence / creativity should be the main driver.. it always should, and to be honest it hurts me when choice is based on other factors.. like .. "how much you can pay to go to the right school" or "color", "ideology" and it works negative in both ways, like when you want to push equality by numbers, instead of just creating even opportunity..

 

So for me education and knowledge has made me move more away from capitalism.. 

 

I´m no support of east block socialism, and communism, but something new needs to be part of this world..

 

now the nerd in me rises, and the "utopia" society from the Star trek universe becomes a part of it.. but everything can be corrupted..

[Wictorian]

39 minutes ago, RasmusDC said:

 

It´s actually fun, because i´m not sure i really support that mindset, i did when i was younger, i come from a "fairly" well off family not rich, but well off in Denmark. as a dane, i think i was capitalistic of mindset, i believed than Denmark was heavy taxated, i felt like people that were unemployed were "just sucking" on the rest off us doing hard work..

 

Got educated, had a couple of well off jobs, and i am doing really well, both me and my wife has a healthy income, so we are well off, my wife is financial educated, and i am an educated engineer, with i highly complex advanced position.

 

NOW.. .my mind has change a lot. and to be honest, I am even more into the socialist / Capitalistic system of Denmark, MANY THINGS we do are faulty.. but it is a better system..

 

I believe that all people should have an equal chance.

I also believe that you get more, the more you put into the system, so intelligence, pays of.. so i am 100% okay with people earning money

 

I support a HIGH medium class, no society with wealth only on the TOP percentage work, mostly because consumption is down, money does not move, and create jobs. so it becomes this constant downwards spiral of "creating value" by draining more and more money out of the lower class. (as in the U.S. the medium wealth group is just not a big thing anymore)

 

and i don´t believe fortunes should just stay in families.. it skews opportunity, that you might be 4-5 generation rich, and then suddenly money is placed in the hands of people that do not have the intelligence to actually create it, so it is not earned.

 

i think most fairly intelligent people actually does not support capitalism as shown in the U.S. .. 

 

People like Jeff Bezos, are a this generations "evil" incarnated persons, that in theory just siphons value out of employees, by mistreating them..

 

i also believe that to have the BEST society possible, we need to find all the talent that we have in our pool of people, and move them up, where they can help us improve, to do that, we need equal chance.. so these people can rise to the top, because they have free education and free healthcare, and a social system that supports their family if needed..

 

it´s fun can´t remember the model, but it´s also more and more clear, that in a group of 100 people, 10 people will create 50% of the value, the bigger the group the smaller the percentage will get. if we are a value focused society (and i am not talking CASH here, i am talking development, which f.ex. is the best way to get out of the f.ex. the enviromental issues we have) 

 

old money just keeps the wrong persons at the top.

 

Intelligence / creativity should be the main driver.. it always should, and to be honest it hurts me when choice is based on other factors.. like .. "how much you can pay to go to the right school" or "color", "ideology" and it works negative in both ways, like when you want to push equality by numbers, instead of just creating even opportunity..

 

So for me education and knowledge has made me move more away from capitalism.. 

 

I´m no support of east block socialism, and communism, but something new needs to be part of this world..

 

now the nerd in me rises, and the "utopia" society from the Star trek universe becomes a part of it.. but everything can be corrupted..

What you don't know is that you are an engineer means you are smart, creative and highly educated, but it doesn't mean you are financially educated. 
Financially educating everyone gives equal chance to everyone.

Capitalism favors intelligence and creativity already.

99% of humanity's achievements are achieved by 0.01% of people.

Why is Bezos evil?

Maybe inheritance should be given to government. Idk if it would cover taxes.

What does it change if intelligence and creativity *become* the drivers? Then not very intelligent people will be poor. 
What do you mean by high medium class?

I don't think there is a single soul in the US that doesn't favor capitalism. And still intelligence is pretty irrelevant, without financial education. 

[Haraikomono]

if you remove a lazy ant from a group, anoter ant will get lazy instead (while its not true), you still can use this analogy for this topic.

Bad people will find ways to do their buisness

[Montana One-Six]

Financial education isn't a new idea at least in my school there was an optional class for economics which didn't have a lot of students. But I don't think that making that mandatory will change society much. There are a lot of factors that lead into a persons decisions regarding money and how they handle it.

Like someone who smokes and knows the negative effects of smoking but still does it because it gives him some sort of relieve or satisfaction, which in his perception is more important than the negative effects he knows about.

 

If you take any other classes as an example:

We have PE and Biology in school but the amount of people who are obese and living unhealthy is constantly rising.

We also have Chemistry and Physics and there are still a lot of people that completed school who burn their house down because they tried to extinguish burning oil with water or using extension cords with extension cords with extension cords.

 

If it doesn't interest you and you are in a mandatory class about something (doesn't really matter what exactly) you probably will not take much out of it.

 

[FruitOfTheLum]

17 hours ago, Wictorian said:

What if everyone had proper financial education? Would any negative effects occur?

We just wouldn't have an excuse to be broke all the time anymore!

[12345678]

nothing

 

there are too many variables to take in consideration, just adding a school subject is irrilevant

 

[Wictorian]

4 minutes ago, 12345678 said:

nothing

 

there are too many variables to take in consideration, just adding a school subject is irrilevant

 

Adding a school subject is not giving education, it is not what I mean. I mean really intuitively educating everyone. 

[Guest willies leg]

I'm guessing these forums would be empty, so would Facebook and Twitter and TikTok.

[dalekphalm]

So this entirely depends on what you mean by "Financial Education".

 

Does everyone need to take an economics/Accountings course? No.

 

But, at bare minimum, your country's tax system should be covered (it seriously hurts my brain, the number of Americans and Canadians who have no idea how a graduated tax bracket system works).

 

Additionally, classes on basic banking systems, saving, interest, and loans should be covered. These don't need to be super comprehensive, but just enough to show the basics of each of these subjects and how they will be important as an adult.

 

Also, @Wictorian, Capitalism fucking suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks. Unfortunately, it's the least worst system we have.

 

Completely unregulated and unfettered Capitalism - often called "free market capitalism" is absolutely terrible, and only serves to enrich those who are already rich. However, a balanced and regulated Capitalism can be a very good thing.

 

Social programs, and Western Socialism (to differentiate from Eastern Block Socialism/borderline communism) are both important and crucial things to incorporate into a Capitalist society.

[Wictorian]

16 minutes ago, comander said:

Having moderately better financial habits isn't as good as just making 2x as much. This might take 100-200 hours of interview practice and a bit of career planning early in life. 

 

It definitely is. More money won't solve the issue, even people who win the lottery go bankrupt. 
Edit : read the edit on original post.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Wictorian

[Wictorian]

3 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

So this entirely depends on what you mean by "Financial Education".

 

Does everyone need to take an economics/Accountings course? No.

 

But, at bare minimum, your country's tax system should be covered (it seriously hurts my brain, the number of Americans and Canadians who have no idea how a graduated tax bracket system works).

 

Additionally, classes on basic banking systems, saving, interest, and loans should be covered. These don't need to be super comprehensive, but just enough to show the basics of each of these subjects and how they will be important as an adult.

 

Also, @Wictorian, Capitalism fucking suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks. Unfortunately, it's the least worst system we have.

 

Completely unregulated and unfettered Capitalism - often called "free market capitalism" is absolutely terrible, and only serves to enrich those who are already rich. However, a balanced and regulated Capitalism can be a very good thing.

 

Social programs, and Western Socialism (to differentiate from Eastern Block Socialism/borderline communism) are both important and crucial things to incorporate into a Capitalist society.

Capitalism doesn't suck. Communism doesn't suck. National socialism doesn't suck. It is just how they are implemented. And I think financial education is really one of the key points if not the most important thing about implementation of capitalism. Really, with capitalism everyone can get rich, as long as they are financially educated. Now, don't get me wrong. Being financially educated isn't taking a subject for an hour every week. It is a strong term.

[Sauron]

On 9/6/2021 at 9:26 PM, markwoll said:

Scammers would be out of business, negative for them, which would be positive for the rest of us.

The scams would just get more subtle. Besides, not all scams rely on financial ignorance.

[Quackers101]

all of them could be "great" in their own "way" and for whom. too much capitalism and little about the social with a focus on personal "fake" growth? hitting parts were they shouldn't be at with no balance?

 

When you should focus on a bigger financial window, to make cities overall cost less and increase benefits.

Cheaper living, better living standards, better choices and conditions with an happier population. Not a taxed out wasteland that benefits nobody and rich companies owning your life or death, than a community that stands strong together. Where rules and a better system that focuses on something liveable, not optimize on financial gain that has lower life time if focused purely on short term profit.

[Wictorian]

3 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

all of them could be "great" in their own "way" and for whom. too much capitalism and little about the social with a focus on personal "fake" growth? hitting parts were they shouldn't be at with no balance?

 

When you should focus on a bigger financial window, to make cities overall cost less and increase benefits.

Cheaper living, better living standards, better choices and conditions with an happier population. Not a taxed out wasteland that benefits nobody and rich companies owning your life or death, than a community that stands strong together. Where rules and a better system that focuses on something liveable, not optimize on financial gain that has lower life time if focused purely on short term profit.

Biggest problem with capitalism is the focus on the short term imo.

[For Science!]

What if everyone had proper financial education

[Wictorian]

9 hours ago, For Science! said:

What if everyone had proper financial education

I think they give proper education. And smart people get it anyways.

[For Science!]

1 hour ago, Wictorian said:

I think they give proper education. And smart people get it anyways.

The bottom line is even if you are taught something:

 

A - You may choose to ignore it anyway. - e.g. most people who smoke do know that its bad for them

B - You may be too lazy to put it into action. - e.g. I know that exersize is good for me, but im too lazy

C - You may be outsmarted or conned by another. - e.g. Scammed

etc etc

 

And no, proper education is not a given even in the most developed countries.

[Wictorian]

43 minutes ago, For Science! said:

And no, proper education is not a given even in the most developed countries.

As far as I know it is given in Scandanavia. Yeah educated system is outdated too but I would imagine it is not very easy to fix and it gives some kind of education nonetheless. But it feels like they are deliberately trying to give financial education.

[Quackers101]

6 minutes ago, comander said:

This problem with education is much of what you get out of it what you put into it, as an individual. The other bit is that not everyone is born bright. It's very hard to fix stupid. I've tried.

While there are body differences or illnesses that may keep people away from learning or the conditions makes it hard to learn in... other ways like school (being in war etc).

But like you say, there has to be a drive to learn, where one see poorer countries have more motivation to learn something or get out of the situation they are in (or scam people that wants a brighter future). Were also real life experiences and actions comes into play, were the work might be more on paper in richer countries while in poorer ones one have to step up to do something physical and being teached at the spot than through various schools that might kill your drive. Schools can be good and needed, but sometimes it just a drive killer for what you want to do or how you learn it.

6 minutes ago, comander said:

I also LEARNED A TON on my own as an adult. Coursera.com, edX, khanacademy, etc. are all basically free. If you have an internet connection, you can get Ivy league/Oxbridge courses for free. 

Thats nice, sometimes I do wonder how helpful some of these free courses are.

[12345678]

On 9/9/2021 at 4:07 PM, comander said:

I wasted A TON of potential (time) as a child.  

me too

but I need to say that the issue was mainly social

like if you didn't behave as other kids you could get easily excluded or beaten down

same stuff happens with adults

 

but then with education there is also a lot of indoctrination imo

like in every school you need to learn the national history, the set of moral bullshittery and stuff like that without apperently any reason /s

[Wictorian]

14 hours ago, 12345678 said:

me too

but I need to say that the issue was mainly social

like if you didn't behave as other kids you could get easily excluded or beaten down

same stuff happens with adults

 

but then with education there is also a lot of indoctrination imo

like in every school you need to learn the national history, the set of moral bullshittery and stuff like that without apperently any reason /s

The point of education *is* indoctrination.

[12345678]

1 hour ago, comander said:

Getting "beaten down" for not going along as a kid is mostly just insults. 

Getting "beaten down" as an adult is life kicking you in the rear for being an idiot (at least for things which have "natural consequences" like flagrantly violating traffic laws or doing stupid things with your time, money, energy and health. 

not really, but in the adult life you're more likely to be persecuted by law than when you're a minor; it depends on the country, but at least here, minors are basically untouchable by law, doesn't matter what they do

 

1 hour ago, comander said:

Following mores compatible with the heard is important... but yeah, education is indoctrination. What is chosen is not necessarily the whole story and how the story is told has its own biases. I'm mildly alarmed with how education is becoming increasingly ideological. K-12 teachers are not a representative sample of the population. University professors are certainly NOT. Harvard's education school - arguably the easiest program to get into (low test scores and relatively low grades for acceptance) is basically a big echo chamber. 

I might be wrong, but I think that they always had been?

but with the popularity of medias/easy communication the echo chamber became bigger

 

 

[HanZie82]

To many people earning from others ignorance.
 

Our general education has been lacking for years now, lets start there.

And i dont mean trow money at it, but make it more useful.