TPMs and Digital Sovereignty Article

[Tannah]

Interesting article that show the dark side of TPM, and explains why Microsoft is trying to force it.

 

Taken from article: "This article is an opinion held by a subset of members about the potential plan from Microsoft about their enforcement of a TPM to use Windows 11 and various features. This article will not go into great detail about all the good and bad of a TPM; there will be links at the end for you to continue your research, but it will go into the issues we see with enforcement."

 

Windows 11: TPMs and Digital Sovereignty : https://secret.club/2021/06/28/windows11-tpms.html

 

I would be curious about peoples thoughts after fully reading the article.

[imreloadin]

I'm sorry but Microsoft has always been "my way or the highway" not sure where these people have been. Anyone who has ever bothered to read their EULA knows this. Windows has never been "yours" it's just been licensed to you by Microsoft. If your entire argument is based around freedom then you should be on Linux because that's what you get there, absolute freedom. There have always been caveats so I'm not sure what the big deal is.

[LAwLz]

I think this article argues in very bad faith. It makes assumptions that Microsoft are evil and don't want their users any good.

With that being said, I also agree with a lot of things said in this blog post and I really can't blame him for thinking this way. Microsoft STILL haven't given us a good answer to exactly why their system requirements are the way they are, and instead give us a bunch of buzzwords like "security". They give us a lot of "why" but not a whole lot of "how".

 

Microsoft: "Let us put this piece of silicon in your computer."

Me: "Why?"
Microsoft: "Because it makes it more secure."

Me: "Can you explain how?"

Microsoft: "No, just trust us."

 

Since pretty much every single good security standard, protocol and product up until this point have been based on transparency, I don't like this whole "we know better than you and don't need to explain ourselves" attitude Microsoft has regarding Windows 11. Until they drop that attitude and start explaining exactly why their system requirements are they way they are in technical details then you will have people writing blog posts like this, distrusting them.

[rockyroller]

I thought TPM was just to force you to use the Win11s store and those that pay a kickback to be on it (ads with option to buy too) as I expect it will be more in your face than a Zuckerberg clone

[Guest colin.p]

11 hours ago, Tannah said:

Interesting article that show the dark side of TPM, and explains why Microsoft is trying to force it.

 

Taken from article: "This article is an opinion held by a subset of members about the potential plan from Microsoft about their enforcement of a TPM to use Windows 11 and various features. This article will not go into great detail about all the good and bad of a TPM; there will be links at the end for you to continue your research, but it will go into the issues we see with enforcement."

 

Windows 11: TPMs and Digital Sovereignty : https://secret.club/2021/06/28/windows11-tpms.html

 

I would be curious about peoples thoughts after fully reading the article.

Thanks for posting that article. I have no doubt that there are nefarious reasons why ms is pushing for more "security measures". My "old" haswell computer may be more valuable than anyone thought. Definitely food for thought...

[8tg]

Barely anyone on this forum had any idea what TPM was until for some reason windows 11 required it. And anyone who actually gave a shit about their systems privacy isn’t using windows to begin with, let alone a barely functional, unfinished version of windows.

I mean really come on now, you don’t get to be all concerned about your privacy all of a sudden when you’ve been using windows and are trying to use the bleeding edge of windows. This is like willingly having cameras put up in your house for someone to watch you but the second they add one microphone, oh no that’s too far.

 

If you care this much about your systems privacy you aren’t using windows, and you’re not even on a hardware platform from this last decade.

[LAwLz]

12 hours ago, 8tg said:

Barely anyone on this forum had any idea what TPM was until for some reason windows 11 required it. And anyone who actually gave a shit about their systems privacy isn’t using windows to begin with, let alone a barely functional, unfinished version of windows.

I mean really come on now, you don’t get to be all concerned about your privacy all of a sudden when you’ve been using windows and are trying to use the bleeding edge of windows. This is like willingly having cameras put up in your house for someone to watch you but the second they add one microphone, oh no that’s too far.

 

If you care this much about your systems privacy you aren’t using windows, and you’re not even on a hardware platform from this last decade.

That is a really shitty argument.

 

The thing used by something like 90% of the population might become worse for consumers and your argument is "lol who cares? Just don't use it if you don't like it".

I care about my privacy and I use Windows 10. Just because I am not using the most privacy conscious things does not mean I just roll over and don't care about it.

 

If Coca Cola started putting cyanide in their drinks would you go "lol who cares? If you cared about your life expectancy then you wouldn't drink coke to begin with"? It's still bad when a company does something that makes their product worse for consumers. "Just use something else if you don't like it" is such a horrible argument that gets thrown around all the time. I shouldn't even call it an argument because it's basically like saying "no u". It's something people say when they can't find a counter argument.

 

Edit: Also, you clearly didn't even read the article before commenting, because one of the main arguments for why this is bad is that once this becomes standard, non-compliant systems like modded Windows 11 installs, or other OSes like GNU/Linux will be deemed "untrusted" and have their experience degraded. And as they point out, we can already see this happening with things such as Netflix, where it is not possible to play 1080p video on GNU/Linux. 

[Vishera]

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

If Coca Cola started putting cyanide in their drinks would you go "lol who cares? If you cared about your life expectancy then you wouldn't drink coke to begin with"?

As matter of fact Coca Cola used to put cocaine in their drinks...

They wanted people to get addicted to their drinks.

 

From Wikipedia:

Quote

Coca-Cola's two key ingredients were cocaine and caffeine.

 

[bondoao1]

2 hours ago, Vishera said:

As matter of fact Coca Cola used to put cocaine in their drinks...

They wanted people to get addicted to their drinks.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

I wish they would bring that back.... 

[Helpful Tech Witch]

16 hours ago, rockyroller said:

I thought TPM was just to force you to use the Win11s store and those that pay a kickback to be on it (ads with option to buy too) as I expect it will be more in your face than a Zuckerberg clone

I don't know if this is sarcasm or not, as take not marked as such

 

The windows 11 store is still a option, as shown by the insider builds out.

We can assume, however, that there will also be a windows 11 s mode that is made for safety reasons (isn't that what s stands for, safety?), But can be unlocked if you want.

[rockyroller]

8 hours ago, HelpfulTechWizard said:

I don't know if this is sarcasm or not, as take not marked as such

 

The windows 11 store is still a option, as shown by the insider builds out.

We can assume, however, that there will also be a windows 11 s mode that is made for safety reasons (isn't that what s stands for, safety?), But can be unlocked if you want.

 

It is sarcasm at the way Microsoft have always tried to limit users into a 'exclusive experience' like Apple does. If like in the day IE was the default browser and you had to go out of your way to buy and load Netscape. It took a court case that Microsoft lost to see all the free browsers you see today.

It comes down to the easy path of least resistance. Win 11 has control of the new pre build market when it demands TPM, what it lacks will be the old already built market and new home build computers. Win 11 is the carrot, so where is the stick? Some Russian hacker? I think not.

 

As I only found out yesterday MS store is unbelievable frustrating, Amazon and Steam is easy street by comparison.

[Mark Kaine]

12 hours ago, Vishera said:

As matter of fact Coca Cola used to put cocaine in their drinks.

i mean its literally in the name. : p

 

btw they still do, supposedly, just without the actual active substance as part of their "secret" mixture (but you can still analyze the ingredients chemically obviously)

[Alan G]

Since Windows 10 will be supported until 2025, you always have a choice of whether to move on to Win 11 or stay put.  Yes, if you are adept enough you can install Linux and find suitable apps for your needs with some exceptions (Adobe photo software is not ported over to Linux).

[Helpful Tech Witch]

3 hours ago, rockyroller said:

Amazon

Are you saying that the Amazon store is better than windows's?

[Radium_Angel]

On 7/7/2021 at 6:42 PM, imreloadin said:

then you should be on Linux

Cool,

 

Please direct me to the following software packages that are required for my day to day work that work natively under *nix

 

StarLIMS (it's IE only)

Outlook with full AD/Exchange integration

LightRoom

IATA Reader

ChromaTOF-GC

7500 Fast System 1.5.1

BAX Q7

___

 

Not all of us are on Windows because we want to....

 

[imreloadin]

13 hours ago, Radium_Angel said:

Cool,

 

Please direct me to the following software packages that are required for my day to day work that work natively under *nix

 

StarLIMS (it's IE only)

Outlook with full AD/Exchange integration

LightRoom

IATA Reader

ChromaTOF-GC

7500 Fast System 1.5.1

BAX Q7

___

 

Not all of us are on Windows because we want to....

 

 

Way to just take half of my quote and run with it...

 

I said:

Quote

If your entire argument is based around freedom then you should be on Linux

Meaning if that is what you care about first and foremost then that's something you're not going to compromise on. Obviously, your use case is more niche than that of most people considering the only pieces of software I've heard of on that list are Outlook and Lightroom. All you did was support my argument in the end however because that means software compatibility is above freedom on the list of things you're not willing to compromise on, hence you use Windows. As I stated, if freedom was your number one on things you wouldn't compromise on then you'd adjust your workflow accordingly to utilize the software available to you. This seriously isn't that hard to understand...

[Mark Kaine]

22 hours ago, Alan G said:

Since Windows 10 will be supported until 2025, you always have a choice of whether to move on to Win 11 or stay put.  Yes, if you are adept enough you can install Linux and find suitable apps for your needs with some exceptions (Adobe photo software is not ported over to Linux).

Problem win 10 is really awful, 11 actually does have a faint hint of modernity, the UI is definitely a lot more logical, plus it seems to do a lot of things right - Im still baffled it actually installed all drivers, including an exotic "harman" driver for my laptop, something  win 10 never even remotely managed to do.

 

Still havent really tested gaming yet, but wouldnt surprise me if that was also more hassle free, theres really no good reason to restrict this to certain cpu types… this TPM stuff cant be good, its pretty obvious which direction Microsoft wants to go with this, one has only to look at their store and how locked down it is, cant even modify an ini file seemingly.

 

 

ps: and really looking at the steam proton db, linux still isnt, and probably never will be an ideal option for gaming - unless they can get native api support that is, which probably wont happen since its mostly Microsoft proprietary stuff.

 

 

[Radium_Angel]

7 hours ago, imreloadin said:

 

Way to just take half of my quote and run with it...

 

I said:

Meaning if that is what you care about first and foremost then that's something you're not going to compromise on. Obviously, your use case is more niche than that of most people considering the only pieces of software I've heard of on that list are Outlook and Lightroom. All you did was support my argument in the end however because that means software compatibility is above freedom on the list of things you're not willing to compromise on, hence you use Windows. As I stated, if freedom was your number one on things you wouldn't compromise on then you'd adjust your workflow accordingly to utilize the software available to you. This seriously isn't that hard to understand...

I pointed out some of us don't run Windows because we like to, we run it because we have to, because the software that is used in our livelihood, doesn't exist on anything else other than the Windows platform. It's not a choice to run anything else.

 

I'd much rather run Linux for my OS of choice, I've had it on more systems than I care to list, but in the end, the OS is simply a platform to allow you to get work done, and that work is done by the applications, not the OS. And if the applications don't exist....

[Radium_Angel]

1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

steam proton db, linux still isnt, and probably never will be an ideal option for gaming

Here's the funny thing about Steam and proton on Linux. 

It works great, until it doesn't.

Any update to the game, tends to break compatibility in rather nasty ways, and since we as users don't have control over updates, it's a constant game of "will it or won't it" run today?

In the end, sometimes we just want to play games and not have to fiddle with shit.

[Mark Kaine]

2 hours ago, Radium_Angel said:

Any update to the game, tends to break compatibility in rather nasty ways, and since we as users don't have control over updates, it's a constant game of "will it or won't it" run today?

yeah, that makes sense, and is probably another hurdle to linux gaming, but you can actually just not update your games, except some online games… theres several "tricks" to do it, simplest is just setting  the right flag, which admittedly requires  "some" (minimal) fiddling, but its really quick to do and probably much less hassle than to troubleshoot an "updated" game.

 

Actually, its a shame, steam offers the option to have several previous versions for download to publishers , but i only know one game that actually does use this option (Rise Of The Tomb Raider)

Spoiler

 

2 hours ago, Radium_Angel said:

In the end, sometimes we just want to play games and not have to fiddle with shit

yup, updates also often break mods, hence i usually just dont update = )

[grg994]

On 7/8/2021 at 12:21 AM, Tannah said:

Windows 11: TPMs and Digital Sovereignty : https://secret.club/2021/06/28/windows11-tpms.html

I would be curious about peoples thoughts after fully reading the article.

I found this blog myself a couple months ago. The guys who write it definitely have a deep knowledge about low-level OS programming. I expect the article to be mostly objective about the TPM issue.

I think on servers TPMs (and also secure boot) have more legit and important security uses not mentioned - but hey we are talking about Win 11 here not Win Server...

 

So you buy Windows from Microsoft for $100 and then your OS puts ads in your start menu.

It's dead simple: Windows has every functionality in it so it can be sold. If there is one which the user doesn't need (eg. TPM) that means that functionality is not sold to the user - but it's sold to someone else, to some third parties.

 

The 'Digital Sovereignty' situation is already pretty bad. How many of you heard about these chips with similarly shady uses as TPM already in PC's?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine

 

On 7/8/2021 at 11:47 PM, LAwLz said:

... non-compliant systems like modded Windows 11 installs, or other OSes like GNU/Linux will be deemed "untrusted" and have their experience degraded. And as they point out, we can already see this happening with things such as Netflix, where it is not possible to play 1080p video on GNU/Linux. 

...and btw this it the point when people who are excluded by "the system"  - or not willing to use it accepting it's privacy compromises - may just start downloading the movies from torrent feeling no guilt.

You all should think about these before you go judgmental on somebody because of piracy.