False advertising?

[Mark Kaine]

So I got a EVGA GTX 1070 FTW2 recently, and while some things are still unclear (for example my warranty is only "206" days...) the card is pretty ok and as expected, *except* it basically doesn't OC at all... +50 core +400 memory, which is also kinda expected, except they have a second "overclocking BIOS" which is exactly the same, even if I raise power limit to the max the result is exactly the same, +50, +400.

 

Raising the voltage, even just 1 point crashes the card in any benchmarks, even with the secondary "overclock BIOS"... 

 

So I think this is pretty clearly false advertising / mislabeling a product, and I'm wondering what are my options (also regarding the warranty) 

 

Basically should I return it to Amazon or to EVGA, and would EVGA even do anything, or should I just live with having a "overclock" card that doesn't overclock (well, barely)? 

 

 

[Fasauceome]

1 minute ago, Mark Kaine said:

So I think this is pretty clearly false advertising / mislabeling a product

Did they tell you what frequency you could hit? If they didn't advertise a specific performance level, it's not false advertising.

 

We're all subject to the silicon lottery.

[Skiiwee29]

is it boosting and maintaining past the advertised boost clocks of the card? If so, then you have nothing you can do. If its not, then how are your temps?

[Prodigy_Smit]

Don't think you can count that as false advertising considering that you can technically overclock and are hitting advertised speeds of the card.

[Oshino Shinobu]

No overclocking is in any way guaranteed, even with the Overclocking BIOS as it's still pushing the card past certified specifications. 

 

Not false advertising as they never claimed it will yield any better results. You have no grounds for a return other than unwanted product.

[Letgomyleghoe]

yup as others have said as long as it hits advertised speed theres nothing you can do, not every card is good for overclocking

[Grabhanem]

Keep in mind also that that +50 on core is an offset, so even if the max stable offset is the same, it may be boosting higher thanks to the higher power target. For me, raising the power limit on my reference 1070 to the maximum 112% gained me about 80mhz without touching offsets.

[Mark Kaine]

3 minutes ago, Fasauceome said:

Did they tell you what frequency you could hit? If they didn't advertise a specific performance level, it's not false advertising.

 

 

Well, my point is they specifically advertise the second BIOS to overclock better, which it does not. 

 

If there was not a second BIOS I wouldn't have a case at all and indeed just bad luck in the lottery... 

 

Basically they *knew* this card wouldn't overclock much and still slapped a second BIOS on it... Just feels wrong, you know.. 

 

2 minutes ago, Skiiwee29 said:

is it boosting and maintaining past the advertised boost clocks of the card? If so, then you have nothing you can do. If its not, then how are your temps?

It does, but see above, wtf is the second BIOS about then when it offers zero improvements? I can't even put more voltage at all lol, which is rather unusual, especially for a card specifically binned for "overclocking". 

 

Quote

Double Gear Up!

We know what you want. You want more control, improved overclocking and BIOS recovery. EVGA now has a line of graphics cards featuring Double BIOS™, with these features and more!

 

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Skiiwee29]

Just now, Mark Kaine said:

It does, but see above, wtf is the second BIOS about then when it offers zero improvements? I can't even put more voltage at all lol, which is rather unusual, especially for a card specifically binned for "overclocking". 

 

 

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Typically a 2nd BIOS on most cards are maybe slightly higher boost clocks and/or voltage limits, but mostly they are different default fan profiles. The Overclock BIOS likely has a more aggressive fan curve keeping temps lower and allowing to boost further/longer. 

[Mark Kaine]

17 minutes ago, Oshino Shinobu said:

Not false advertising as they never claimed it will yield any better results

Except they did. 

 

"improved overclocking" 

[Oshino Shinobu]

1 minute ago, Mark Kaine said:

Except they did. 

 

"improved overclocking" 

Where are you quoting this from? 

[Mark Kaine]

6 minutes ago, Skiiwee29 said:

Typically a 2nd BIOS on most cards are maybe slightly higher boost clocks and/or voltage limits, but mostly they are different default fan profiles. The Overclock BIOS likely has a more aggressive fan curve keeping temps lower and allowing to boost further/longer. 

Exactly, if it only would go a bit higher I'd say, ok rather disappointing but at least they didn't lie... It really does not OC even 1hz more lol. 

 

Also I don't get why I can't put more voltage, on my old 1060 Gaming X I could put +100 and it would actually boost higher and *not* crash... 

 

 

[SkilledRebuilds]

The GPU could very well have a factory shitty thermal paste job (bad coverage of the die), and paste is now old AF and worse than ever...

Aim for 100% coverage of the die, with fresh paste and retry overclocks.

Reasons - HOTSPOTS (values are hidden by Nvidia) driving higher clocks = crashing out

[Fasauceome]

18 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Basically they *knew* this card wouldn't overclock much

Did they? Again, overclocking numbers and performance are not factory guaranteed. The BIOS just improves power limits in the BIOS and maybe slaps a different fan curve onto the card, but the actual frequencies are not part of the advertisement

[Mark Kaine]

14 minutes ago, SkilledRebuilds said:

The GPU could very well have a factory shitty thermal paste job (bad coverage of the die), and paste is now old AF and worse than ever...

Aim for 100% coverage of the die, with fresh paste and retry overclocks.

Reasons - HOTSPOTS (values are hidden by Nvidia) driving higher clocks = crashing out

 

Good point... OOF.

 

It really has a weird behavior that it starts down clocking at like 56,57C sometimes which makes no sense "to me"... 

 

Could it also maybe be my PSU... Because I'm noticing the card basically never goes above 75% power usage... I mean just guessing but maybe the PSU just doesn't provide any more power... Not sure how likely that is though?? 

 

9 minutes ago, Fasauceome said:

Did they? Again, overclocking numbers and performance are not factory guaranteed. The BIOS just improves power limits in the BIOS and maybe slaps a different fan curve onto the card, but the actual frequencies are not part of the advertisement

You're correct, they don't advertise numbers outside the normal boost clocks, but yes, they do, it's why this is a FTW2 and not FTW or black, they test this very thoroughly, and this one should probably be a Black, without any second BIOS. 

 

I guess I really have to contact them and A ask why second BIOS doesn't boost higher, and B, which is actually more of a concern, why I don't get the full 3 year warranty they advertise so much, maybe the card is used or refurbished or something, something is definitely odd with it... 

[SkilledRebuilds]

7 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

 

Good point... OOF.

 

It really has a weird behavior that it starts down clocking at like 56,57C sometimes which makes no sense "to me"... 

 

Could it also maybe be my PSU... Because I'm noticing the card basically never goes above 75% power usage... I mean just guessing but maybe the PSU just doesn't provide any more power... Not sure how likely that is though?? 

 

You're correct, they don't advertise numbers outside the normal boost clocks, but yes, they do, it's why this is a FTW2 and not FTW or black, they test this very thoroughly, and this one should probably be a Black, without any second BIOS. 

 

I guess I really have to contact them and A ask why second BIOS doesn't boost higher, and B, which is actually more of a concern, why I don't get the full 3 year warranty they advertise so much, maybe the card is used or refurbished or something, something is definitely odd with it... 

My Fully overclocked GTX1070 used 85% sometimes the Core is as good as it gets without using all available board power.
Downclocking at 56*c is normal (Every 5*c from 40-45*c on 10/20 series drops 13Mhz and on Ampere it starts at 30-35*c)
nature of GPU boost and an ever adaptive algorithm.

I'd repaste it (for its age) and behaviors you see.
FYI My 2080Ti had factory paste on it (still new'ish), redone it and dropped 5*c at same fixed 62% fanspeed across both lengthy tests.

[spartaman64]

if the silicon doesnt OC then no amount of bios tweaks and cooling will fix it. thats why its called the silicon lottery 

[Mark Kaine]

5 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

if the silicon doesnt OC then no amount of bios tweaks and cooling will fix it. thats why its called the silicon lottery 

In that sense, there is no silicone "lottery" tho, there's no reason a "FTW2" card cost more when it doesn't clock higher than a "Black" which is sold much cheaper... 

 

For a lottery you need some kind of randomness, these cards are heavily binned and tested by EVGA, there is no randomness in that, or at least shouldn't be. 

 

Basically, "OK this card barely overclocks, let's make this our second highest tier and put an overclocking bios on it for the luls..." 

 

It makes a lot more sense there's something not right like old thermal paste, or they "forgot" the thermal pads for the VRMs or something (that's a thing with EVGA apparently lol) 

 

 

[Mark Kaine]

58 minutes ago, SkilledRebuilds said:

I'd repaste it (for its age) and behaviors you see.
FYI My 2080Ti had factory paste on it (still new'ish), redone it and dropped 5*c at same fixed 62% fanspeed across both lengthy tests

I'll do that but first I need to check with EVGA about my warranty and if *that* doesn't void it anyways... I know it shouldn't, but different countries, different laws so I'd rather make sure.

[tikker]

4 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

It really has a weird behavior that it starts down clocking at like 56,57C sometimes which makes no sense "to me"... 

Perfectly normal behaviour for Pascal and onwards. This is how GPU Boost works and temperatures are key in this.

 

3 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

In that sense, there is no silicone "lottery" tho, there's no reason a "FTW2" card cost more when it doesn't clock higher than a "Black" which is sold much cheaper...

 

For a lottery you need some kind of randomness, these cards are heavily binned and tested by EVGA, there is no randomness in that, or at least shouldn't be. 

From what I know the cards are binned in the sense that they can reach the advertised clocks. Taking the 1070 SC Black and FTW2 as example:

• SC has 1594 MHz base clock, 1784 MHz boost clock
• FWT and FTW2 have 1607 MHz base clock, 1797 MHz boost clock

FTW2 costs more because apart from design it has higher clocks. Yes it's only 13 Mhz, but it's higher. If it reaches those clocks, then they have fulfilled their end of the bargain. Further overclocking beyond that is nice, but in no way guaranteed.

 

Also keep in mind that GPU Boost is already auto-overclocking your card for you. As long as temperatures and power target allow for it, it will try to boost as high as it can. From what I can find that second BIOS allows for a higher power target, so it does give you higher overclocking potential. It's still up to temperatures and the silicon lottery if you can actually go higher than the advertised clocks.

 

Yes it's ambigous attractive shiny talk trying to get you to buy the more expensive cards, that's the point of marketing

 

  

3 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

I'll do that but first I need to check with EVGA about my warranty and if *that* doesn't void it anyways... I know it shouldn't, but different countries, different laws so I'd rather make sure.

I think EVGA is generally pretty cool with stuff like thermal paste and warranty.

[Mark Kaine]

@SkilledRebuilds, @tikker@Fasauceome

So I did some tinkering with fan curves, quite an improvement, tho noise levels are rather terrible, mostly of how erratic it is, but I could probably improve that still a bit, I just left it for now as it does what I want, albeit at horrendous noise levels lol... 

 

It still doesn't really overclock any better, and I'm still a bit baffled I can't put any more voltage at all, maybe new paste improves this, but probably not? 

 

 

 

 

2000 MHz, at last, and it doesn't seem to downclock either as long temps stay low... It even ups the voltage to 1.063v occasionally 

 

 

OC and fancurves... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Just a small update as it really seems mostly temperature dependent, and voltage may just be at the max as is. 

[xAcid9]

20 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

Because I'm noticing the card basically never goes above 75% power usage

Open GPU-Z. Go to Advanced tab and select Nvidia BIOS. You can check your card power limit there. 

[Mark Kaine]

1 hour ago, xAcid9 said:

Open GPU-Z. Go to Advanced tab and select Nvidia BIOS. You can check your card power limit there. 

Thanks, but that just tells me what precision already tells me (not an exact wattage / voltage or something) 

 

 

Tldr: I think the card works alright and within specs, though I still think the "overclock bios" is snake oil / misleading / false advertising as it is completely pointless. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

[tikker]

5 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

So I did some tinkering with fan curves, quite an improvement, tho noise levels are rather terrible, mostly of how erratic it is, but I could probably improve that still a bit, I just left it for now as it does what I want, albeit at horrendous noise levels lol... 

 

It still doesn't really overclock any better, and I'm still a bit baffled I can't put any more voltage at all, maybe new paste improves this, but probably not? 

 

 

 

 

2000 MHz, at last, and it doesn't seem to downclock either as long temps stay low... It even ups the voltage to 1.063v occasionally 

That's a nice clock and about what you can expect from what I remember. You're close to the voltage limit which is set to 1.093 V from reading around a bit. New paste may improve thermals allowing you to maybe get that little extra juice. You're probably just hitting the general limit the air cooler can get you to as well, with the only option remaining is to just put them at 100% all the time to try and keep thermals low enough for it to boost a little higher.

[Mark Kaine]

4 minutes ago, tikker said:

That's a nice clock and about what you can expect from what I remember. You're close to the voltage limit which is set to 1.093 V from reading around a bit. New paste may improve thermals allowing you to maybe get that little extra juice. You're probably just hitting the general limit the air cooler can get you to as well, with the only option remaining is to just put them at 100% all the time to try and keep thermals low enough for it to boost a little higher.

I agree... I really think the card is generally tuned nicely, may that be EVGA's or Nvidia's work, I don't even want more performance necessarily, it seems to be hitting diminishing returns hard at this point, but same performance with lower fancurve would be nice... It seems to be generally hovering at around 50-60% while gaming but as I have it right now it goes to 70-80% sometimes and that's just annoying lol...