Why I Didn't Buy a Tesla

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

On 9/14/2020 at 6:07 PM, Egg-Roll said:

So one can argue till their face turns blue about how gaps in the panels are "defective" but if everything functions as intended it's just a ugly car, the issue for consumers is Telsa and their "within tolerance" lines, which like the local transit system is basically a joke, Tesla workers could claim 5mm is well within tolerance so long as it doesn't cause issues in daily use, just like how the local bus service sees it as ok to have a bus every 21 minutes with a 5 minute delay and 5 minute early tolerance, do the math, it's really really stupid for a public system as big as them, which is the same with Tesla's subjective tolerance levels, tho one video about the bumper (link below) seems to be a little anal if you ask me.

There is sort a flaw in your analogy with public transit. With public transit particularly the bus system, it's dependent on road conditions that are out of their control. This happens all the time in Vancouver where protests, car accidents (it's Vancouver, people drive like morons here), and general congestion causes huge delays. It's not uncommon here to see buses so backed up they literally form a slow moving convey. Then you have the riders who don't know how to use a bike rack, that takes a few minutes for them to sort themselves out. Same with riders with strollers or wheelchairs, they'll take a few additional minutes to sort themselves out. 

 

With Tesla, quality control is something they have complete control over. They either invest the money to tighten things up, or they don't. I mean, the quality of their paint jobs is just testament to that. If the mirrors on a new Model 3 have more orange peeling than a Macco paint job, I don't know what to say to that. Like how does that even happen? On the lower third of a Mazda 2 yes since the robot arm can't reach that low... but on the mirrors? 

 

More to the point, the way they design cars makes initial quality a huge concern. If components were designed in a way that allowed adjustments to be made easily after the fact, then I don't think it would be as big of a problem as people make it to be. Yes it's annoying to have to do panel adjustments to a car worth 80k the moment it rolls off the line, but hey at least it can be done easily right? Not exactly... To adjust the tailgate of the Model X, you have remove the rear glass because they had the smart idea of having the bolts for the hinges located underneath the glass. There is no reason why you would want to design something this way, but Tesla did. Now this could be the result of their hiring policies where they've gravitated towards fresh graduate engineers. So you can see why they would have so many novel approaches to things, and why quite a number of these ideas make little sense in a production vehicle. Another example is the placement of the latch mechanism on the Falcon doors. Because it's at the lowest point of the vehicle, it's the most susceptible to water intrusion. And of course, that area will commonly get soaked with water and in Winter, it'll freeze and prevent the door from opening. 

 

Being that they're mostly a technology company, I shouldn't be surprised they're really banking on the we can patch problems later mentality. Maybe it's just me, but if I had 80k to blow on a car, I wouldn't be expecting to be treated like a beta tester. 

 

I think Marques really captured the difference between Tesla and established car makers nicely in his review of the Porsche Taycan Turbo. The car feels polished from day one. 

 

One thing I will knock on the Taycan though. That centre screen on the dash... it's not centred, it's slightly offset. I'm getting W140 S Class vibes, granted the W140 is still the worse in that department. 

[Egg-Roll]

1 hour ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

There is sort a flaw in your analogy with public transit. With public transit particularly the bus system, it's dependent on road conditions that are out of their control. This happens all the time in Vancouver where protests, car accidents (it's Vancouver, people drive like morons here), and general congestion causes huge delays. It's not uncommon here to see buses so backed up they literally form a slow moving convey. Then you have the riders who don't know how to use a bike rack, that takes a few minutes for them to sort themselves out. Same with riders with strollers or wheelchairs, they'll take a few additional minutes to sort themselves out. 

That would be true for the TTC, esp Keele and Dufferin routes, less so now for the Lawrence bus but still happens or at least it did before the pandemic. My reference is towards the pathetic joke called the YRT. They used to have bus services on weekends running every12 minutes for about 12 hours on Saturday (15 for the rest) and Sundays ran 16 minutes all day on Yonge street (full route, half route runs in between them giving about 8 minutes and 6 minutes below a point). My comment is more towards how they operate the system than the situation of roads etc. I've seen buses idle at the starting point for 5 minutes then causally drive, then the last few stops of the route they would rocket off, no traffic, no bad weather nothing like that. The laundry list of BS they have done while increasing fares (including putting 40fters on a 60fter route on a sunday, 18 minutes at that time, not the short route but the long route causing rider congestion frustration and many delays) while claiming ridership has increased while decreasing service (before the pandemic), and increasing prices. They run off of the contract out only platform, because lazy, they are too big to justify for any other reason.

 

1 hour ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

With Tesla, quality control is something they have complete control over. They either invest the money to tighten things up, or they don't. I mean, the quality of their paint jobs is just testament to that. If the mirrors on a new Model 3 have more orange peeling than a Macco paint job, I don't know what to say to that. Like how does that even happen? On the lower third of a Mazda 2 yes since the robot arm can't reach that low... but on the mirrors? 
 

More to the point, the way they design cars makes initial quality a huge concern. If components were designed in a way that allowed adjustments to be made easily after the fact, then I don't think it would be as big of a problem as people make it to be. Yes it's annoying to have to do panel adjustments to a car worth 80k the moment it rolls off the line, but hey at least it can be done easily right? Not exactly... To adjust the tailgate of the Model X, you have remove the rear glass because they had the smart idea of having the bolts for the hinges located underneath the glass. There is no reason why you would want to design something this way, but Tesla did. Now this could be the result of their hiring policies where they've gravitated towards fresh graduate engineers. So you can see why they would have so many novel approaches to things, and why quite a number of these ideas make little sense in a production vehicle. Another example is the placement of the latch mechanism on the Falcon doors. Because it's at the lowest point of the vehicle, it's the most susceptible to water intrusion. And of course, that area will commonly get soaked with water and in Winter, it'll freeze and prevent the door from opening. 

 

Being that they're mostly a technology company, I shouldn't be surprised they're really banking on the we can patch problems later mentality. Maybe it's just me, but if I had 80k to blow on a car, I wouldn't be expecting to be treated like a beta tester. 

It's why I won't be buying a normal Tesla, they are apparently getting a new paint setup to hopefully fix the issue, at least that is what I've read. However I do agree their paint jobs suck.

 

Conspiracy theory: Tesla unknowingly hired a spy who is sabotaging the company with bad designs.

All seriousness I wasn't aware that they hired a failure... Bolts and glass? Even if they are not touching they shouldn't be anywhere near it esp with a moving part. I understand trying to complete the design but there are I'm sure other ways of doing it. The Falcon doors have various issues and all they are really is a party trick more then anything even tho they are more functional in tight places vs normal doors.

 

I think that is the issue with Tesla they are still a "tech company" in nature (mentally) not a auto company, which they technically are. Once they get that threw their heads then they will become unstoppable, the new paint shop is a step in the right direction. I'm banking on the Cybertruck and Semi less so the new Roadster, to force them into the reality. If all goes right and this pandemic actually ends before the end of 2021 I might actually be able to buy a cyber, it really removes  a bulk of the current issues of the current Teslas.

 

1 hour ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

I think Marques really captured the difference between Tesla and established car makers nicely in his review of the Porsche Taycan Turbo. The car feels polished from day one. 

 

The annoying thing about Porsche is at the base model you could buy 2 Model S's I think, or a mini fleet of 3s, or save a little more to just get the new Roadster. Yes it looks way better, and far more polished but I would never buy it, even if I had a money, for the reasons pointed out already in a previous post.

 

Image is the worst click bait ever lol. Spoiler alert Model 3 won. The Kia was #2.

https://www.kia.ca/vehicles/niroev/overview

 

Only reason why I am still so willing to get a Tesla is due to their willingness in technology, esp their Auto Pilot software, they are the #1 in the industry in that way, then their charging network 2nd to none. Even when it comes time to buy, I'll be looking at reviews issues etc and if not good enough I'll be holding back on buying, might even go with Kia or someone else for the mean time.

[caincha]

20 hours ago, Results45 said:

 

It's not really an in-depth video on the ecological viability of electric cars as Linus' Volt is a plug-in hybrid (think Prius, but you can avoid using gas altogether as long as you don't drive that much each day) that uses gas when the battery is depleted. As with 100% EVs, it has been studied and confirmed that over the average warrantied ownership of an Tesla with today's Li-Ion battery tech that the battery pack degrades no more than 25% over 350,000 miles. Some electric car manufacturers will allocate 10-20% of the battery cells as reserve to compensate for deteriorated cells down the line. Tesla is pretty close to introducing improved "dry-cell" Li-Ion batteries with 20% more energy density that are rated for 1 Million miles. That means that it will last that long with minimal degredation before needing to be replaced. Also, solid-state batteries with multiple times the energy density, longevity, and charging speed are expected to be in widespread use in 10 years.

 

As for charging, the US electric grid is currently a mixed bag comprised of 61% natural gas + coal (NG is quickly replacing coal), 20% nuclear, 17% various renewable sources, and 2% miscellaneous sources. In order for owning an EV or hydrogen vehicle to be carbon neutral, the US will need to enact a national carbon tax as well as replace all coal/natural gas capacity with renewables, nuclear, and battery/supercapacitor storage in the next 30-35 years (by 2050-ish). Meanwhile, rumors point to Tesla venturing into the utility market with their Autobidder management software which essentially pays buys up excess renewable-generated electricity on the cheap and pays Tesla vehicle & Power Wall owners to store that capacity for later use before re-selling that capacity to the market and paying-out the savings/profits (aka buying, storing, and redistributing otherwise wasted renewable electricity by "renting" spare distributed consumer storage capacity).

 

I don't know a lot about this, but disposing spent battery cells will likely be handled by Tesla where they will break them down and reuse/recycle as much of the raw components as possible while producing as little pollution & waste as possible. I would do a bit of info digging youself.

 

Oh, and Tesla Battery Day is this week so maybe take some time to watch the livestream or recording.

 

UPDATE: Tesla is going to reuse spent batteries to make the Million Mile batteries.

Thanks for the very comprehensive reply. However you mostly mentioned Tesla which might not be the biggest seller out there…?

I'm not that curious to dig up more about it to be honest. I just find it somewhat hypocritical when people buy EVs and say it's for the environment - they don;t think about where the power to charge the battery comes from, how the company from which they bought their car is going to handle the battery once it's depleted, what happens when there's an accident that exposes the battery, etc…

It's like going vegan and not considering the Monsanto's out there and so on.

[crypt5]

On 9/13/2020 at 4:28 AM, crypt5 said:

What music track was used? I've heard it on another youtube video recently. 

Found it.

 

On 9/13/2020 at 9:22 AM, RorzNZ said:

It’s not a real issue. Batteries are easily replaceable in the leaf, and when they degrade to a noticeable point, it probably time to get a new car.

They are a really good selling car in places like Norway but in Australia where its hot, even more so than New Zealand where your from, they severely degrade or fail at 4 to 6 years of age. No one is going to spend $10k to $15k replacing batteries, the car is going to landfill. And what about the second hand market where 99% of people don't have that money to fix the car? It really defeats the purpose of being environmentally friendly when they could have just implemented a cooling system. 

[just_dave]

On 9/22/2020 at 11:56 AM, Results45 said:

 

It's not really an in-depth video on the ecological viability of electric cars as Linus' Volt is a plug-in hybrid (think Prius, but you can avoid using gas altogether as long as you don't drive that much each day) that uses gas when the battery is depleted. As with 100% EVs, it has been studied and confirmed that over the average warrantied ownership of an Tesla with today's Li-Ion battery tech that the battery pack degrades no more than 25% over 350,000 miles. Some electric car manufacturers will allocate 10-20% of the battery cells as reserve to compensate for deteriorated cells down the line. Tesla is pretty close to introducing improved "dry-cell" Li-Ion batteries with 20% more energy density that are rated for 1 Million miles. That means that it will last that long with minimal degredation before needing to be replaced. Also, solid-state batteries with multiple times the energy density, longevity, and charging speed are expected to be in widespread use in 10 years.

 

As for charging, the US electric grid is currently a mixed bag comprised of 61% natural gas + coal (NG is quickly replacing coal), 20% nuclear, 17% various renewable sources, and 2% miscellaneous sources. In order for owning an EV or hydrogen vehicle to be carbon neutral, the US will need to enact a national carbon tax as well as replace all coal/natural gas capacity with renewables, nuclear, and battery/supercapacitor storage in the next 30-35 years (by 2050-ish). Meanwhile, rumors point to Tesla venturing into the utility market with their Autobidder management software which essentially pays buys up excess renewable-generated electricity on the cheap and pays Tesla vehicle & Power Wall owners to store that capacity for later use before re-selling that capacity to the market and paying-out the savings/profits (aka buying, storing, and redistributing otherwise wasted renewable electricity by "renting" spare distributed consumer storage capacity).

 

I don't know a lot about this, but disposing spent battery cells will likely be handled by Tesla where they will break them down and reuse/recycle as much of the raw components as possible while producing as little pollution & waste as possible. I would do a bit of info digging youself.

 

Oh, and Tesla Battery Day is this week so maybe take some time to watch the livestream or recording.

 

UPDATE: Tesla is going to reuse spent batteries to make the Million Mile batteries.

I think one cannot comment on ecological impact of EVs in a general sense, because the energy mix can be totally different. Even if the battery adds 8-10 tons of CO2 to the starting "price", in Norway, Sweden or Finland, that will quickly become irrelevant because those countries have a healthy mix of renewables, nuclear and some spare change of oil or NG. Same in Austria, Portugal or even Canada (especially BC).

 

The key to energy revolution is for greentards to pull their head out of the sand and support new nuclear (Transatomic, TerraPower, Rolls Royce SMRs). Fusion could be 10-15 years away if the MIT Tokamak works.

 

The life cycle of batteries is no need for worries. No one in their right mind will just dump them, because they are full of super expensive materials.

[asimrc]

Am I the only one still waiting on the tesla review?

[AlexTheGreatish]

14 hours ago, asimrc said:

Am I the only one still waiting on the tesla review?

Linus got distracted by a horse so the videos been delayed a bit

 

[danwat1234]

Equipped with a good Level 2 autonomous driving system in its own right.