Looking through the Nvidia hype - Speculation

[Zat0ichi]

All the improvements touted by Nvidia could be only rtx related or some marketing smoke and mirrors.

Yes there will no doubt be the huge raw rasterising horsepower increase but more than any game will really need. 

4k 144htz is niche.

 

Team red are very likely going to release similar horsepower increases at a similar price point, but the ray tracing side of things is a complete unknown. 

 

 

Nvidia are trying to push the dlss thing as another reason to pay the premium for tensor but in reality most people see RTX as reflections. 

 

So I'm sat here waiting for team red to have an answer to RT performance.

 

If it wasn't for CDPR I really would be willing to forgo RT for another few years but Witcher 3 with the latest hulk mod AND the full global illumination cut during the downgrade debacle is the experience I've been waiting for. Oh and Cyberpunk. But my expectations are seriously tempered for that now. How they give the scale of Witcher in verticality rather than breadth of landscape concerns me.

 

Is RT worth it yet?

Yes, IF some Devs lead the way and set a standard rather than just turn on reflections. (Bump mapping slimey shine anyone?)

 

With no other information to go on I'm all aboard the 3070 hype train. 1440p 60fps raytracing. Yes please.

BUT

If team red can offer enough raw performance overhead that a software/driver  level RT solution can give the same performance I'm with them.

 

Roll on October

 

And impartial hands-on reviews

 

And payday.

[Zat0ichi]

More speculation fuel.

A "leak" form videocardz.com shows the 3080 1.65 times faster than a 2080. or 165% - whatever, statistics.

 

Look at metro exodus as a full fat (if slightly wonkilly coded) RTX implementation.

 

1440p Ultra everything inc maxRTX

 

51fps (although another site said 39fps but I'm guessing drivers)

 

51 x 1.65 = 84fps

 

Not too bad at all. For the 3080

 

Looking at the hardware the 3070 only has about 60% as much "stuff" in it

 

So that's 1.4 times the performance of a 2080.

71fps (a.k.a rock solid 60)

 

That's not fully raytraced 4k 60fps power.

 

1440p yes with a sprinkling of DLSS to blag it.

 

The 3070 is going to be the defacto 1440p RTX card. Which is good, that's my realm of fidelity and expense.

Just need to wait till after chirstmas for the dust to settle now.

 

Still cant even begin to speculate on the 2nd hand market, yet

Supply is key I guess. 

and AMD - what have they got. I don't want 4k or ultra high frame rates and my gut feeling is that's what they have. If they compete with RT, then its on!

 

 

 

 

 

[Gohardgrandpa]

I’m gonna use my 2080ti til the next gen video cards come out. I play at 1440p and don’t care about rtx. As long as I can run my games at 1440p high/medium settings over 100fps I’m happy. 
I play a lot of old stuff or stuff that would run on a potato so I didn’t get hype for the 3000 launch. The best thing that happened with the launch was me getting a dirt cheap 2080ti and upgrading from the 2060 super I had. 

[Zat0ichi]

So AOTS leaked a benchmark.

 

Using their numbers it works out as

$8 per fps for the 3080

And from the same source

$7.40 per fps for the 5700xt

 

And the joke

$17 per fps for the 2080ti.

 

I think we see the AMD effect.

 

Stay tuned for more more regurgitated news and half baked analysis.

[Zat0ichi]

17 hours ago, Gohardgrandpa said:

I’m gonna use my 2080ti til the next gen video cards come out. I play at 1440p and don’t care about rtx. As long as I can run my games at 1440p high/medium settings over 100fps I’m happy. 
I play a lot of old stuff or stuff that would run on a potato so I didn’t get hype for the 3000 launch. The best thing that happened with the launch was me getting a dirt cheap 2080ti and upgrading from the 2060 super I had. 

I too don't care about rtx or insanely high framerates. I appreciate 60 FPS though but stable 50 is fine.

Also like you I game at 1440p.

 

CDPR are my weakness though. I was part of the butthurt downgrade brigade with Witcher 3. Finally it's going to have the global illumination it deserves (and maybe the volumetrics as well)

And then there's Cyberpunk. Damp drizzly streets lit by neon....

Those two things validate RTX.

 

So. I want the 3070 to be all in can be at the price. But this is Nvidia we're talking about. They will shaft us. 3.5gb on a gtx970. I keep seeing vram usage numbers and that card had its usefulness curtailed by that RAM thing. Deeply deeply cynical move by them

[Sir Beregond]

RTX as a feature is not that compelling to me yet. DLSS on the other hand definitely is.

 

I'm somewhat hyped, but at the same time feel Nvidia is still holding back until RDNA2 launches. I think we will see some 16GB/20GB variants of the 3070 and 3080 respectively at the very least, which would make me feel better about holding onto a card for 4-5 years or more like I did with my GTX 980.

 

That said, one thing that concerns me is the much higher power draw for Ampere. Perfomance per watt will definitely be something I factor. Remember Fermi?

[Mark Kaine]

I'm not interested in "blast processing" however I'm following PC gaming for 2-3 yrs now and there is. *always* "big navi" this time for real™ coming up and it never lives up to expectations...  AMD might be a consideration for marketing reasons for Nvidia but not on a technical level, the reasons these 3000 cards look to be underwhelming lay somewhere else .

 

56 minutes ago, Sir Beregond said:

That said, one thing that concerns me is the much higher power draw for Ampere. Perfomance per watt will definitely be something I factor.

Yeap same, it kinda looks like Nvidia didn't even try, although they probably did...  Very disappointing as is the stagnating VRAM situation.

 

56 minutes ago, Sir Beregond said:

Remember Fermi?

No. Who's that guy?

[Zat0ichi]

and AMDs marketing fires up with show tunes.

 

I think the hype around the 3070 is worrying them.

There must be the largest  proportion of "floating voters" there has been within the GPU community for quite some time.

 

3070s value proposition could steal a large chunk before AMD have even launched. They need to show their hand.

[Zat0ichi]

We have  RT hardware in team red!

 

Also we have performance per Watt metrics being mentioned which means less that Nvidia.

Less watts and therefore less performance?

 

5700xt - 250W card

Same watts? Comparable to 3070.

 

Using AOTS again. (crazy 4k)

 

5700xt scores 5200

 

3080 scores 8700

Use the 0.875 modifier used earlier and you get a score 7600 for the 3070.

 

Soooooo

6700xt (equiv) which will be their mainstream enthusiast card with prob have same power draw but 50% more fps.

 

Lo and behold its a tie! (well favouring Nvidia maginally and their RT will work out of the box)

 

Waiting till fkn OCTOBER,

for a keynote. My guess is GPU on with be the 28th.

 

Might even get some real numbers for Nvidia by then.

 

Stay tuned for more BS analysis and speculation

 

 

[Yoshi Moshi]

i wouldn't get a 3070 if I was you and you want to play CyberPunk. I mean think about it. Cyberpunk comes out mid November, 3070 comes out mid October. Unless you can do one of the following, you probably won't have the card in time for cyberpunk, they'll probably be sold out for weeks and week, way past the release of cyber punk. Better to TRY and get a 3080 or 3090, and if you don't get one of the first shipments, no worries, 2 months to cyberpunk, you can try the second shipment.

 

1) Take the day off from work, have all the tabs open for all the retail stores that will be selling them, spam F5 over and over again for hours and hours until you see it's for sale. Then as soon as you see it, say a prayer, move the mouse as fast as you can, and attempt to add it to your cart and checkout, memorize your credit card number and enter it in as fast as possible, hit submit, hope that the website doesn't crash on you in the process, from all the other thousands and thousands of people that will be spamming F5 throughout the day.

 

2) Microcenter and BestBuy apparently get shipments on the weekends. So the monday before the release go into the store and ask them if they have them in stock and will be selling them in the store the day of release. Pull up a chair outside of their store and prepare to sit from 6 pm to 10 am (16 hours) in the cold in October night, and if your the first person in line, congratulations!!! Your guaranteed to get one. Just play some games on your phone while you wait. I'd also recommend lots of blankets, try and get a heated blanket. Maybe even a tent just in case it rains. Don't forget some food as well.

 

Good Luck!

[Sir Beregond]

All that for a graphics card? Sheesh. I'll wait for Jan/Feb/March. Heck by then we might get Ti variants.

[Zat0ichi]

NDAs lift on the 14th.

couldn't be bothered to analyse and scale latest leak to 3070.

 

oh go on, just a tiny bit

According to the leak tombraider at 4k. 100fps 

my guess is that's without RT

 

2080 got 29fps 4k RT

lets apply the 1.4 modifier

3070 could get 40fps 4k RT - not bad

 

But I care about 1440p and there things look better.

2080 got 56fps 4k RT

3070 could get 75fps a.k.a rock solid 60

 

But we have hardware and software tweaks that can only push those numbers up.

 

 

 

 

[Zat0ichi]

So the smoke is clear.

3080 is not a true 4k 60fps card.

60% faster for 60% less. All good.

 

But the jaw dropping part they hyped is, as we knew, hyperbole on steroids.

DLSS is the key and it's a cludge.

Just like all their other things such as the Nvidia gameworks suite of effects and gsync

 

Before I continue I'm not a red team fan boy. I've paid the Nvidia premium in the past (bat man city was a real moment for me on Nvidia hardware)

 

DLSS is very clever and from what I've seen, staggeringly effective but after scanning the wiki article it appears The developer has got to prep a game for it.

 

If it was like antialiasing it would be a winner. But machine learning needs training.

I'm not sure how easy that is for a dev, do they just give the game textures, models and shaders and just let it have a think? Custom expensive software? Massive computational power needed for a sustained period of time? If they update a game do they then need to reship the DLSS component.

 

So now, to reap all the benefits touted, a dev must implement RT, and a non RT lighting solution and also a DLSS component.

After generating content and an actual game.

 

And consoles.

 

AMD non tensor consoles, that dictate the AAA title limits. All this Nvidia fluff has to be put on top that.

 

I can't see adoption ramping up any time soon. Some nice reflections that punish FPS. Ambient occlusion replacement maybe? But now I'm really stretching my consumer level knowledge of game tech.

 

Looks like full scene 1440p non dlss Ray traced lighting is not going to be on the cards.

I get 1440p 60fps off my 5700xt. A 3070 would be lovely but I don't think there's going to be enough content to stretch it for a year or so.

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Zat0ichi
Grammar, typos, considering if life is worth living

[Zat0ichi]

Fortnite!

 

What a weird marketing battle ground .

AMD "hides" an Easter egg there and Nvidia raytrace it.

 

How long ago were these marketing strategies set in action?

 

 

[whaka]

On 9/9/2020 at 3:33 AM, Mark Kaine said:

No. Who's that guy?

a very hot guy.

fermi was the geforce 4xx series gpu codename.

 

the 480 was notorious to have the ability to cook your eggs, and boiling your cofee at the same time

[Zat0ichi]

disappointment complete.

3070 cannot offer full RT at 1440p 60fps.

 

Using Control as a flagship RTX implementation and Video cardz latest analysis.

 

2080ti in can do 40fps avg full RTX (noDLSS) @1440p

 

According to nvidia's own hype the 3070 is a bit weaker.

 

but

 

There is always "medium RT"

 https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/juxtapose/latest/embed/index.html?uid=c829d086-cab0-11e9-b9b8-0edaf8f81e27

Raytracing a desk shadow 100 feet (30m) away, is that really necessary?

 

Taking the hit on fidelity in the face of insurmountable expense and a dire need to play Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk raytraced the 3070 looks good for 50-55 fps.

 

Add a sprinkling of driver optimisation.

 

AMD over to thee

 

 

 

 

 

[Dr0y]

I'm playing in 1080p and I aim for 75 fps to 120 fps high or ultra in AAA titles.  I'm waiting for a gpu that can deliver that and that is affordable for me ... hoping to pay about 500$ or less ... canadian money tho. 

 

I don't think that I would need more than 8gb vram for 1080p

I know I should upgrade my whole pc and I'm waiting on next amd cpu real benchmark and then I will make a decision on which platform I get.

Do you think a probable 3060 would be the right spot or it would definitely need something like the 3070 ... don't mind going amd either ... will get the best performance for the price IF amd don't have tons of drivers bugs reported during the first two or tree months. 

[Zat0ichi]

3 hours ago, Dr0y said:

I'm playing in 1080p and I aim for 75 fps to 120 fps high or ultra in AAA titles. 

2nd hand gtx1070.

 

CPUbenchmark is a very rough guide to CPUs.

 

IMO you need a score of over 8000 to be in the AAA open world game other wise its the CPU limiting your FPS not GPU

[Dr0y]

49 minutes ago, Zat0ichi said:

2nd hand gtx1070.

 

CPUbenchmark is a very rough guide to CPUs.

 

IMO you need a score of over 8000 to be in the AAA open world game other wise its the CPU limiting your FPS not GPU

I already have an rx590 and a gtx 1070 would not be a significant upgrade for the amount of money they cost around here.  also I will upgrade the whole platform not that long after I upgrade the gpu if I don't upgrade everything at the same time. 

[Zat0ichi]

You're holding onto 1080p so you're not another "I only have $2000 for a new PC" guy.

 

b450mobo - Ryzen 5 and 16gb of 3200DDR4 

Cheapest way to get back in the game for a core upgrade. no CPU bottlenecking.

keep the rest of your rig.

IMO that's good for 5years. (In 5 years time you'll be able to max out the mother board with highest CPU and ram for a lot cheaper)

 

GPUs...

 

In the Uk you can get a 2nd hand 1070 for half the price of a new  2070. 

Yeah its only 25-30% faster. Enough to get you triple digit fps though.

Buy it with a view to selling next year, "renting".

 

Assume you'll lose half its value once all the dust has settled with the new ones.

 

 

 

Doing it that way allows you to game how you want as soon as you can.

 

 

 

[Dr0y]

Here price are going crazy on the local market ... everybody are selling for really high price and I really don't know why ... also prices on ebay canada are way worst than local market ... like I could basically sell my pc for more than what I paid for but then I would be stuck without a pc for a while until prices comes down. 

 

Is the ryzen 1600 a good upgrade from my i7 4770 or I would need more like a 3600 for it to be worth it ?

 

[Zat0ichi]

Not sure.

 

From what Ive heard/read the Ryzen 1600 is right on the line for what you need. New consoles are going to supercede it pretty soon. NPC and physics...

 

I don't need high framerates, I'm more of a 60fps 1440p kinda guy. My knowledge is from the end of last year when I realised my old i5 3570k (9000 CPU benchmark score) was not enough for 60fps in open world games so I went b450 and a r5 3600.

 

If you're on a super tight budget.

Get a quality b450 mobo. MSI mortar I think was the best in class for the price.

That gets you on the AMD CPU path. That socket can go from the 1600 all the way to 3900x. Possibly further!

 

If you get a 1600 it will return almost nothing in resale value. (I factor resale value in to my purchasing a lot.)

 

Budget.

Look at the cost of an MSI b450 mortar/tomahawk.

Add 16gb ddr4 3200 (3600 if you can)

 

Add the best CPU you can afford.

 

That's what you need to save up.

 

 

Your 590gpu is still valid. Although you might have to drop Shadow and ambient occlusion settings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ewitte]

I remember when the 2080 came out people were showing it trading blows with the 1080ti.  Now with the recent reviews for the 3000 series there shows up to a 20% difference.  Two years of driver updates and developing for the new hardware capabilities increased performance 20%.  The same will happen with this generation.  Being said I'm about 50% faster (70% with RTX) that I was on my 2080 even now.  That is a great difference.

[Zat0ichi]

3 hours ago, ewitte said:

I remember when the 2080 came out people were showing it trading blows with the 1080ti.  Now with the recent reviews for the 3000 series there shows up to a 20% difference.  Two years of driver updates and developing for the new hardware capabilities increased performance 20%.  The same will happen with this generation.  Being said I'm about 50% faster (70% with RTX) that I was on my 2080 even now.  That is a great difference.

you managed to get  a 3080?

[Zat0ichi]

Just using this thread to empty my head.

 

So the truth is out.

 

 3070 is the best way to spend 500

 

If you need insane frames per second in non raytraced titles then AMD.